NYU v. Chicago v. GULC v. Duke Forum

[trobriander]

If you're also interested in quality of living Chicago happens to be the greatest city on earth.

UChi is definitely the best option. You probably know this but in your heart of hearts you always wanted to go to NYU or Duke or something and you were thinking "if I can just get 3 people to say it's ok, I can justify doing it!" or something like that. Or maybe you were pretty darn sure Chi was right, but wanted final opinions. Not that this is a bad thing, I made a thread with my choice already 90% made just for final, total confirmation, and now you have it as well: Chi.

Actually, the reason why I asked this question is because I am really unsure. In fact, I am leaning towards NYU or GULC because of the wide variety of opportunities tailored to what I want to do. I knew I would probably get a massive amount of people telling me that Chicago is the best because U.S. News/TLS says it's the best, but if I do choose Chicago, it will certainly be for a combination of academic, personal, and financial reasons. I was simply asking if anyone had any helpful information for any of these 4 schools which I could use toward my decision. I appreciate your comment on the quality of life in Chicago, and I have heard many good things about quality of life in Hyde Park/Chicago in general.

[J-e-L-L-o]

I'd like to know total COA at all besides GTown.

I'd take Duke for the warmer weather for 3 years since there is only an apparent 5% difference in employment outcomes.

[trobriander]

I'd like to know total COA at all besides GTown.

I'd take Duke for the warmer weather for 3 years since there is only an apparent 5% difference in employment outcomes.

Total COA as I calculated it (with the scholarships):
- Duke: ~ 129,000
- NYU: ~190,000
- Chicago: ~133,000
- GULC: (just in case anyone is interested) ~132,000

I am coming from a warm area so the weather is actually a negative for me lol

[trobriander]

I'm a 1L at NYU who will be working at a public defender this summer and likely pursuing a career in indigent criminal defense. NYU has probably the best training (i.e., clinics and simulation courses) and alumni network for public defense in the country. NYU alums started and/or run all the major public defense orgs in NYC (e.g., Legal Aid, Bronx Defenders, NDS, Brooklyn Defenders) and NYU has a strong network at major public defender offices across the country, such as PDS (DC), CPCS (Boston), and OPD (NOLA). Public defenders offices don't have hiring quotas for particular schools, but they do have a limited set of schools they recruit from and because of the training and critical mass of interested students, NYU is at the top of the list. If your goal is criminal defense in a major city, you should be joining us at NYU--the only reason you should even consider U of Chi with that goal is if you want to end up in the midwest. The difference in scholarships shouldn't be a consideration as you're going to need to use the LRAP anyway--while the LRAP should be a major consideration, NYU will cover clerkships as well.

PM me if you want to discuss this further.

The bolded is certainly an overstatement. I have 3L friends who have successfully secured public defender positions all over the country, including in NYC. Chicago has the Federal Criminal Justice Clinic, which I believe is still the only clinic in the country that exclusively represents indigent clients in fed court. I know a bunch of students in the FCJC and they have had a great experience. The professor who runs that clinic has great connections across the country, and works really hard to help her students get public defender gigs. There are several other clinics at Chicago that would be relevant to OPs interests, but FCJC seems like a no-brainer.

UChi's LRAP also covers clerkships.

Thanks for the information. I am impressed with the FCJC and many other clinics at Chicago. I was wondering if the quarter system limits time in clinics in any way - do most people just do quarter-long clinics or do students stay in a clinic all year?

[J-e-L-L-o]

I'd like to know total COA at all besides GTown.

I'd take Duke for the warmer weather for 3 years since there is only an apparent 5% difference in employment outcomes.

Total COA as I calculated it (with the scholarships):
- Duke: ~ 129,000
- NYU: ~190,000
- Chicago: ~133,000
- GULC: (just in case anyone is interested) ~132,000

I am coming from a warm area so the weather is actually a negative for me lol

you say that now...wait till -15 with windchill in the windy city lol. I spent a winter in Chicago and it was brutal. Great city though.

In that case, go to Chi town.

[trobriander]

What does "public sector" and "criminal law" mean to you? If you want to be a public defender or something similar I'd probably take NYU. The network matters, having dozens of like-minded people for support matters, and the extra debt does not matter (much).

If you don't really know what it is you're looking for and will just end up going into biglaw, then maybe you should just go to Chicago.

I would like to be a public defender, but I said "criminal law" because I am keeping my options open. I loved the network of aspiring crim defenders at NYU, but I was also a little worried that this would mean higher competition for similar positions. Thoughts?

Thanks for your thoughts on the debt! I suppose the extra debt doesn't matter to me as much as someone who is planning to go into an LRAP-ineligible field, but it still makes me uncomfortable. At least I wouldn't be taking it at sticker.

I know what you mean about competition for jobs, but I think it's not a big deal. First of all, these organizations are not hiring as if they have a quota for graduates from each school. They're not taking one NYU and one Chicago grad. If both NYU grads are better qualified than the Chicago grad, they're taking both NYU grads. So there is only more "competition" in the sense that you know who you're competing with.

And even though there is that competitive element, the public interest student community at NYU is very supportive. Everyone knows the job market is tough but everyone is generally happy to see each other be successful—it bears well on the school and on its public interest reputation.

The other element is that public interest hiring is not highly structured like biglaw hiring. It helps to be able to compare notes with other people who are applying and interviewing for jobs and fellowships. It also helps to have a support network of people who are, say, second semester 3Ls and don't have jobs yet, not because they failed but because that's just how it works. At a school where there are only a few people who actually wanted to do public interest work, you're more likely to feel like a pariah. (This feeling seems to exist even at NYU, where there are probably 50+ people per class who were dedicated to public interest from day one; I can't imagine what it would be like elsewhere.)

This is all without even touching on the career services, the alumni network, and the clinical opportunities, all of which I suspect are a little to a lot better at NYU.

Thank you for the information. I hadn't really thought about the possibility of quotas from organizations, but it's nice to know that's not a concern. I've heard good things about the career services/alumni network/clinics at NYU but the size of the school is a little daunting, especially because I met a few people at NYU who were unable to secure the clinics they wanted. Of course, I didn't know the students' particular situations in these cases, but it seemed like clinics were fairly easy to secure at Duke and Chicago (don't know about GULC).

[trobriander]

I'd like to know total COA at all besides GTown.

I'd take Duke for the warmer weather for 3 years since there is only an apparent 5% difference in employment outcomes.

Total COA as I calculated it (with the scholarships):
- Duke: ~ 129,000
- NYU: ~190,000
- Chicago: ~133,000
- GULC: (just in case anyone is interested) ~132,000

I am coming from a warm area so the weather is actually a negative for me lol

you say that now...wait till -15 with windchill in the windy city lol. I spent a winter in Chicago and it was brutal. Great city though.

In that case, go to Chi town.

Haha that's probably true! The cold weather seems nice in theory. I just can't stand Southern 100+ degree summers anymore but I suppose I could try for summer jobs elsewhere.

[Emma.]

I'm a 1L at NYU who will be working at a public defender this summer and likely pursuing a career in indigent criminal defense. NYU has probably the best training (i.e., clinics and simulation courses) and alumni network for public defense in the country. NYU alums started and/or run all the major public defense orgs in NYC (e.g., Legal Aid, Bronx Defenders, NDS, Brooklyn Defenders) and NYU has a strong network at major public defender offices across the country, such as PDS (DC), CPCS (Boston), and OPD (NOLA). Public defenders offices don't have hiring quotas for particular schools, but they do have a limited set of schools they recruit from and because of the training and critical mass of interested students, NYU is at the top of the list. If your goal is criminal defense in a major city, you should be joining us at NYU--the only reason you should even consider U of Chi with that goal is if you want to end up in the midwest. The difference in scholarships shouldn't be a consideration as you're going to need to use the LRAP anyway--while the LRAP should be a major consideration, NYU will cover clerkships as well.

PM me if you want to discuss this further.

The bolded is certainly an overstatement. I have 3L friends who have successfully secured public defender positions all over the country, including in NYC. Chicago has the Federal Criminal Justice Clinic, which I believe is still the only clinic in the country that exclusively represents indigent clients in fed court. I know a bunch of students in the FCJC and they have had a great experience. The professor who runs that clinic has great connections across the country, and works really hard to help her students get public defender gigs. There are several other clinics at Chicago that would be relevant to OPs interests, but FCJC seems like a no-brainer.

UChi's LRAP also covers clerkships.

Thanks for the information. I am impressed with the FCJC and many other clinics at Chicago. I was wondering if the quarter system limits time in clinics in any way - do most people just do quarter-long clinics or do students stay in a clinic all year?

Clinics are only limited by a total number of credit hours you can take in your law school career.. You can divide those up over an entire year, or over two years. I can't remember how exactly the credit math works, I think it is 45 hours of clinic work = 1 hour of class credit. Some people spread their hours across more than one clinic, but it is much more common for people to focus on one clinic. FCJC is somewhat unique in that you can only represent clients in fed court as a 3L, so that limits how much you can participate in this clinic as a 2L (there are still opportunities, you just can't appear in court). The 3Ls I know who are in the clinic are all staying in the clinic the whole year (It doesn't hurt that Prof Siegler is one of the most beloved professors at the school!). You could probably work in a different clinic as a 2L then transition to FCJC, as a 3L, but I think the people who are interested in that clinic want to spend all their available credit hours doing FCJC work.

I don't know a single person who wanted a clinic and couldn't get their first choice.

[hicrhodus]

Chicago has the Federal Criminal Justice Clinic, which I believe is still the only clinic in the country that exclusively represents indigent clients in fed court.

NYU has the Federal Defender Clinic, where students represent indigent clients in federal court (this is also limited to 3Ls due to federal practice rules). I think there are actually a few schools that have similar clinics. There are 3 other year-long clinics at NYU that allow for direct representation of indigent clients in local courts: the Family Defense, Community Defender, and Juvenile Defender clinics. There are also clinics that allow for appellate criminal representation (Appellate Defender and Equal Justice Clinics) or representation in deportation hearings (the Immigrant Rights Clinic). Chicago is a great school and there are many reasons to go there, but I simply don't think they have the same institutional resources for aspiring public defenders or alumni network--especially as historically very few people have gone public interest out of Chicago.

[Emma.]

Chicago has the Federal Criminal Justice Clinic, which I believe is still the only clinic in the country that exclusively represents indigent clients in fed court.

NYU has the Federal Defender Clinic, where students represent indigent clients in federal court (this is also limited to 3Ls due to federal practice rules). I think there are actually a few schools that have similar clinics. There are 3 other year-long clinics at NYU that allow for direct representation of indigent clients in local courts: the Family Defense, Community Defender, and Juvenile Defender clinics. There are also clinics that allow for appellate criminal representation (Appellate Defender and Equal Justice Clinics) or representation in deportation hearings (the Immigrant Rights Clinic). Chicago is a great school and there are many reasons to go there, but I simply don't think they have the same institutional resources for aspiring public defenders or alumni network--especially as historically very few people have gone public interest out of Chicago.

Ah sorry, my bad. UChicago's FCJC is the only clinic that represents clients charged with felonies.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Chicago has the Federal Criminal Justice Clinic, which I believe is still the only clinic in the country that exclusively represents indigent clients in fed court.

NYU has the Federal Defender Clinic, where students represent indigent clients in federal court (this is also limited to 3Ls due to federal practice rules). I think there are actually a few schools that have similar clinics. There are 3 other year-long clinics at NYU that allow for direct representation of indigent clients in local courts: the Family Defense, Community Defender, and Juvenile Defender clinics. There are also clinics that allow for appellate criminal representation (Appellate Defender and Equal Justice Clinics) or representation in deportation hearings (the Immigrant Rights Clinic). Chicago is a great school and there are many reasons to go there, but I simply don't think they have the same institutional resources for aspiring public defenders or alumni network--especially as historically very few people have gone public interest out of Chicago.

Ah sorry, my bad. UChicago's FCJC is the only clinic that represents clients charged with felonies.

For what it's worth I think the NYU clinic also works on felony cases, though it's more of a "work alongside the attorneys" arrangement, while the misdemeanors are really the students' cases.

Popular clinics were harder to get into this year at NYU though, that may something to be wary of. Many of the more popular ones were not available, though I think it was just an unfortunate coincidence of several faculty members being on sabbatical and such at the same time. Still, it wouldn't kill NYU to reduce their 1L and/or transfer class size a bit.

[J-e-L-L-o]

Total COA as I calculated it (with the scholarships):
- Duke: ~ 129,000
- NYU: ~190,000
- Chicago: ~133,000
- GULC: (just in case anyone is interested) ~132,000

I am coming from a warm area so the weather is actually a negative for me lol

Umm who cares about NYU at this point. Chicago is far cheaper

[sinfiery]

Umm who cares about NYU at this point. Chicago is far cheaper

I think OP was 95% sure they were attempting to go for a job that qualifies for PLSF or w/e it's called. Which, to a degree, reduces the money factor.

[trobriander]

Apologies for being MIA - I was hanging out at Chicago for a bit.

Thanks for all the helpful advice, everyone. I have narrowed down to Chicago and NYU at this point, and I'm leaning towards Chicago. I feel weird saying that because I know NYU is pretty much synonymous with PI and Chicago's program is up and coming, but Chicago does seem to have a (slightly) better LRAP and a lot of students there made the case that Chicago provides more leadership opportunities/opportunities to stand out as a PI-minded student, and that because of the small number of PI students, there is a lot more institutional support and more active career service support.

I guess my only hesitation at this point comes from me feeling like feeling like NYU matched my personality a little better than Chicago. I didn't hate Chicago, and I felt like I would do well there, but it didn't invoke the same feelings of passion/interest as NYU did. I know this is a soft factor and obviously my decision doesn't come down to this, but can anyone speak to how much emphasis they placed on subjective feelings at the various schools they visited?

[permapress]

also interested in this topic... from my impression of chicago, it seemed that they're really trying to support PI-interested students. they started a new PI initiative this year and hired a manager to run it. i got the sense that although their PI is traditionally not as developed as a place like nyu, that might actually be a positive factor since as a student, you'd be very involved with shaping opportunities, etc. whereas at nyu, your chances for leadership may actually be less given how strong and established PI is over there.

[Doorkeeper]

Total COA as I calculated it (with the scholarships):
- Duke: ~ 129,000
- NYU: ~190,000
- Chicago: ~133,000
- GULC: (just in case anyone is interested) ~132,000

Chicago.

[LSATSCORES2012]

I just deposited at Chicago today because of feeling, mostly. I honestly didn't like the feel of NYU... I had never been to NYC before and it didn't feel right for me. Between the two, there really weren't many differences in objective factors. However, there was COL, which is about $50,000 higher over three years in NYC. But, really, I honestly felt better at Chicago - the people seemed more genuine to me. So it was definitely a major part in my decision.

FYI, regarding PI, Chicago is already the #2 school for PI in the country (if we ignore CUNY, that is).

[trobriander]

I just deposited at Chicago today because of feeling, mostly. I honestly didn't like the feel of NYU... I had never been to NYC before and it didn't feel right for me. Between the two, there really weren't many differences in objective factors. However, there was COL, which is about $50,000 higher over three years in NYC. But, really, I honestly felt better at Chicago - the people seemed more genuine to me. So it was definitely a major part in my decision.

FYI, regarding PI, Chicago is already the #2 school for PI in the country (if we ignore CUNY, that is).

I have definitely never seen Chicago so high up on the list. If the numbers reflect the truth, I'm optimistic! Wonder how these lists are created?

[trobriander]

I just deposited at Chicago today because of feeling, mostly. I honestly didn't like the feel of NYU... I had never been to NYC before and it didn't feel right for me. Between the two, there really weren't many differences in objective factors. However, there was COL, which is about $50,000 higher over three years in NYC. But, really, I honestly felt better at Chicago - the people seemed more genuine to me. So it was definitely a major part in my decision.

FYI, regarding PI, Chicago is already the #2 school for PI in the country (if we ignore CUNY, that is).

To be honest, I'm the opposite - I loved the feel of NYU and liked Chicago, but it was definitely not as much as much as I liked NYU. But I have the same COL difference and I don't know if it's worth it if I feel like I would be happy at either. But we'll see! Most likely we'll be classmates next year.

[LSATSCORES2012]

I just deposited at Chicago today because of feeling, mostly. I honestly didn't like the feel of NYU... I had never been to NYC before and it didn't feel right for me. Between the two, there really weren't many differences in objective factors. However, there was COL, which is about $50,000 higher over three years in NYC. But, really, I honestly felt better at Chicago - the people seemed more genuine to me. So it was definitely a major part in my decision.

FYI, regarding PI, Chicago is already the #2 school for PI in the country (if we ignore CUNY, that is).

I have definitely never seen Chicago so high up on the list. If the numbers reflect the truth, I'm optimistic! Wonder how these lists are created?

That list in particular is just ranking by the percentage of graduates who are placed in to PI.