H vs. S vs. C vs. C ($$) vs. P ($$$$) Forum

[Stinson]

I would say you have two avenues. If you are willing to live with debt, then go to either H or S. They are both good options for your goals. If you are scared of the debt, go to Penn. The other options don't seem to make much sense.

Also, I wouldn't say that people "fall through the cracks" at H. Almost everyone who aspires to work in a large firm is able to do so. PM me if you have specific concerns though.

How do you explain the 20+ people working at firms under 50 and another 20+ at state clerkships in the data I linked? I'm sure there are a few at elite boutiques, but considering that almost none of the elite boutiques hire pre-clerkship and that the numbers are very low for Y/S in this category, I strongly doubt almost all of the people at these firms preferred them to NLJ 250s. Again, I wouldn't put too much weight on this data, but it would make me pick S over H at the same money if I felt the same about them otherwise.

Obviously you can nitpick any data, but just a couple thoughts on the graph on that thread.

1. I can't find a recent breakdown of clerkship types at HLS, but the year I matriculated a lot of the non-fed clerkships were with state supreme courts, which are actually quite desirable for many people, particularly if you're going into practice after and not academia.

2. There are other threads that go into this better, but the school-funded positions can be hard to decode because at Yale and Harvard these are not safety nets for people striking out at OCI, but rather ways to break into PI because PI orgs are so short on money right now. Someone did some digging on HLS's school funded positions from a year or two ago and many of the people, after the money expired, were working at fairly desirable firms or long-term PI positions. There were a few crummy outcomes, but it was out of 30 people or so. In sum, these are in many cases not undesirable outcomes, and as I said some people aim at these things.

3. According to HLS's c/o 2012 data, right around two percent of people are unemployed and seeking employment and like ten people in firms under 100 people, and about 23% of people were in clerkships. Those may be cracks, but honestly they're not that big.

Overall, you can split hairs statistically and Stanford probably wins, due mostly to its teeny-tiny class, but I think it's a small enough difference that if OP just has a strong personal preference Harvard is a completely justifiable choice. He kind of wins law school either way, honestly, due to the financial situation.

I can't speak to the Penn question. Off the cuff, Harvard and Stanford's big law placement is not $80k better than Penn's but given OP's preference for a very elite firm, H and S might have some advantage there. You'd have to dig into the numbers, though. With OP's kind of work experience, he'd probably be in the running at an elite firm from Chicago or Penn.

[Emma.]

How so? im sticker at HYSC. 75K scholly at Chicago and Levy at Penn. technically, my parents are paying me 1/3 of my COA after scholly applied, which I will put towards tuition. So at sticker it ends up being 25, 25, 25 roughly between parents, self and loans. all im really concerned with is debt at graduation so I did all the math up front.

Is it safe to take Columbia/Chicago out of this decision? Seems to be H vs. S vs. Penn from responses.

It changes things because you could be keeping your savings if you attend Penn. It is way easier to give advice based on total cost of attendance, not total debt on graduation. Even if debt is all you are concerned about, keeping that money in savings is almost certainly going to equate to less debt somewhere down the road (like when you are thinking of buying a house).

[Elston Gunn]

I would say you have two avenues. If you are willing to live with debt, then go to either H or S. They are both good options for your goals. If you are scared of the debt, go to Penn. The other options don't seem to make much sense.

Also, I wouldn't say that people "fall through the cracks" at H. Almost everyone who aspires to work in a large firm is able to do so. PM me if you have specific concerns though.

How do you explain the 20+ people working at firms under 50 and another 20+ at state clerkships in the data I linked? I'm sure there are a few at elite boutiques, but considering that almost none of the elite boutiques hire pre-clerkship and that the numbers are very low for Y/S in this category, I strongly doubt almost all of the people at these firms preferred them to NLJ 250s. Again, I wouldn't put too much weight on this data, but it would make me pick S over H at the same money if I felt the same about them otherwise.

Obviously you can nitpick any data, but just a couple thoughts on the graph on that thread.

1. I can't find a recent breakdown of clerkship types at HLS, but the year I matriculated a lot of the non-fed clerkships were with state supreme courts, which are actually quite desirable for many people, particularly if you're going into practice after and not academia.

This is true, but they're also (at least at lower schools) often a way for people who missed Biglaw to try to backdoor their way into it.

2. There are other threads that go into this better, but the school-funded positions can be hard to decode because at Yale and Harvard these are not safety nets for people striking out at OCI, but rather ways to break into PI because PI orgs are so short on money right now. Someone did some digging on HLS's school funded positions from a year or two ago and many of the people, after the money expired, were working at fairly desirable firms or long-term PI positions. There were a few crummy outcomes, but it was out of 30 people or so. In sum, these are in many cases not undesirable outcomes, and as I said some people aim at these things.

I was the one who did the digging actually , which is why I deliberately didn't include the school funded jobs. I still think, all things considered, you'd want to avoid them.

3. According to HLS's c/o 2012 data, right around two percent of people are unemployed and seeking employment and like ten people in firms under 100 people, and about 23% of people were in clerkships. Those may be cracks, but honestly they're not that big.

Yeah, I hadn't thought about this until a few minutes ago, but what the graph really says is that if the economy collapses again, more Harvard grads per-capita than Stanford will be screwed. But these numbers make it seem like when the economy is good/average, the difference mostly goes away.

Overall, you can split hairs statistically and Stanford probably wins, due mostly to its teeny-tiny class, but I think it's a small enough difference that if OP just has a strong personal preference Harvard is a completely justifiable choice. He kind of wins law school either way, honestly, due to the financial situation.

This I certainly agree with, as I've said a couple times.

[az21833]

How so? im sticker at HYSC. 75K scholly at Chicago and Levy at Penn. technically, my parents are paying me 1/3 of my COA after scholly applied, which I will put towards tuition. So at sticker it ends up being 25, 25, 25 roughly between parents, self and loans. all im really concerned with is debt at graduation so I did all the math up front.

Is it safe to take Columbia/Chicago out of this decision? Seems to be H vs. S vs. Penn from responses.

It changes things because you could be keeping your savings if you attend Penn. It is way easier to give advice based on total cost of attendance, not total debt on graduation. Even if debt is all you are concerned about, keeping that money in savings is almost certainly going to equate to less debt somewhere down the road (like when you are thinking of buying a house).

Thats a fair point. my plan was to contribute COL myself at all the schools and put any parent help towards tuition with the remainder being loans. So i guess the only school I would be spending less at would be Penn, since my parents would pay for 1/3 of COL since there is no tuition (its a full ride), but everywhere else it would be the same.

[jrf12886]

I would say you have two avenues. If you are willing to live with debt, then go to either H or S. They are both good options for your goals. If you are scared of the debt, go to Penn. The other options don't seem to make much sense.

Also, I wouldn't say that people "fall through the cracks" at H. Almost everyone who aspires to work in a large firm is able to do so. PM me if you have specific concerns though.

How do you explain the 20+ people working at firms under 50 and another 20+ at state clerkships in the data I linked? I'm sure there are a few at elite boutiques, but considering that almost none of the elite boutiques hire pre-clerkship and that the numbers are very low for Y/S in this category, I strongly doubt almost all of the people at these firms preferred them to NLJ 250s. Again, I wouldn't put too much weight on this data, but it would make me pick S over H at the same money if I felt the same about them otherwise.

I imagine its a mixture of things: people working at small botiques, people working at firms where they have previous connections, and people who didn't get NLJ 250 offers. As for clerkships, it seems a lot of people really want CoA clerkships or a district clerkship in certain city (NYC, DC, Boston) and people who don't get those tend to go directly to a firm rather than clerk elsewhere.

[Stinson]

Little sad that we have to run the "well what if the economy craters again?" scenario but it's a very good point, Elston.

[Elston Gunn]

I would say you have two avenues. If you are willing to live with debt, then go to either H or S. They are both good options for your goals. If you are scared of the debt, go to Penn. The other options don't seem to make much sense.

Also, I wouldn't say that people "fall through the cracks" at H. Almost everyone who aspires to work in a large firm is able to do so. PM me if you have specific concerns though.

How do you explain the 20+ people working at firms under 50 and another 20+ at state clerkships in the data I linked? I'm sure there are a few at elite boutiques, but considering that almost none of the elite boutiques hire pre-clerkship and that the numbers are very low for Y/S in this category, I strongly doubt almost all of the people at these firms preferred them to NLJ 250s. Again, I wouldn't put too much weight on this data, but it would make me pick S over H at the same money if I felt the same about them otherwise.

I imagine its a mixture of things: people working at small botiques, people working at firms where they have previous connections, and people who didn't get NLJ 250 offers.

I imagine the overlap between the first two groups and people who didn't get NLJ 250 offers is like 80-90%. If there were lots of people who just preferred really small firms, you'd think you'd see similar numbers at Yale and Stanford and at Harvard when the economy is better, but you don't.

As for clerkships, it seems a lot of people really want CoA clerkships or a district clerkship in certain city (NYC, DC, Boston) and people who don't get those tend to go directly to a firm rather than clerk elsewhere.

This is true at any school. There are lots of people who just won't clerk in the middle of nowhere. Anyway, my point was about state clerks. Harvard has double (quadruple?) the number of state clerks per capita as Stanford in the 2011 data. It's a really small number of people, so it's not that significant, but it's a difference.

Anyway, like I said, I don't think it's a big deal, but I do think it's significant.

[RELIC]

Harvard if east coaster, Stanford if west?

TITCR

[Ti Malice]

2. There are other threads that go into this better, but the school-funded positions can be hard to decode because at Yale and Harvard these are not safety nets for people striking out at OCI, but rather ways to break into PI because PI orgs are so short on money right now. Someone did some digging on HLS's school funded positions from a year or two ago and many of the people, after the money expired, were working at fairly desirable firms or long-term PI positions. There were a few crummy outcomes, but it was out of 30 people or so. In sum, these are in many cases not undesirable outcomes, and as I said some people aim at these things.

I was the one who did the digging actually , which is why I deliberately didn't include the school funded jobs. I still think, all things considered, you'd want to avoid them.

I'm curious as to what you mean by this exactly, aside from the self-evident observation that taking a PI fellowship is a higher-risk path than BigLaw. As you well know, there are a pretty good number of folks who come here entirely focused on the PI path and dead-set against working in BigLaw. I suppose you could argue that a singular focus on PI is wrongheaded in and of itself, but arguments on either side of that claim will just be statements of personal preferences. What should these folks be doing in PI law after graduation that doesn't involve starting off with one of these fellowships?

[az21833]

just want to iterate again how helpful this has been, this kind of dialogue and advice is really the best side of TLS that often gets lost in all of its imperfections.

I've withdrawn from Columbia and Chicago. I have solid work experience so if I think my biglaw options out of penn would be similar to chicago and i would be 100% debt free.

Now I am down to roughly 75K of debt coming out of Harvard or Stanford or debt-free out of Penn. Going to take a few more days to think about that one. The Penn deadline is Friday so I'll need to make a final decision before then.

[Elston Gunn]

2. There are other threads that go into this better, but the school-funded positions can be hard to decode because at Yale and Harvard these are not safety nets for people striking out at OCI, but rather ways to break into PI because PI orgs are so short on money right now. Someone did some digging on HLS's school funded positions from a year or two ago and many of the people, after the money expired, were working at fairly desirable firms or long-term PI positions. There were a few crummy outcomes, but it was out of 30 people or so. In sum, these are in many cases not undesirable outcomes, and as I said some people aim at these things.

I was the one who did the digging actually , which is why I deliberately didn't include the school funded jobs. I still think, all things considered, you'd want to avoid them.

I'm curious as to what you mean by this exactly, aside from the self-evident observation that taking a PI fellowship is a higher-risk path than BigLaw. As you well know, there are a pretty good number of folks who come here entirely focused on the PI path and dead-set against working in BigLaw. I suppose you could argue that a singular focus on PI is wrongheaded in and of itself, but arguments on either side of that claim will just be statements of personal preferences. What should these folks be doing in PI law after graduation that doesn't involve starting off with one of these fellowships?

Working at an organization that will actually hire them? Unless you're talking International Human Rights or you just have to work for the ACLU, it's pretty rare (as I understand it at least) that organizations that do the work you want literally don't hire entry-level. It's not like everyone who's doing PI at Yale is being paid by the school to do it. For instance, a bunch of the fellowships are for Gov agency positions, which are obviously tough to land, but certainly exist. I'm not saying a PI-focused person should prefer Biglaw to the fellowship (and the timing means you can't really make that choice anyway), but I wouldn't advise anyone to give up hustling for a job because they can always fallback on the fellowship.

[Doorkeeper]

This is a decision between Harvard and Stanford because you want a federal clerkship. Pick the one you like more. Sounds like you prefer H, so go H.

This is TLS wisdom that needs to be pushed back on. First, only a small percentage of each class gets a federal clerkship every year. Is it worth $200k for a 5-10% greater chance at a federal clerkship? And it's probably even slimmer of a difference than that if you think about it; you only get the benefit of the greater percentage of clerkships if you are in that 5-10% area where Stanford or Harvard does better at clerkships than the University of Pennsylvania (putting aside differences in where you end up, class rank wise, since that's difficult to predict). Second, can the OP tell us how a federal clerkship fits into his or her career plans? Do you know what a clerkship is? Or is this just the result of reading TLS and finding out it is something prestigious? Clerkships aren't worth it for everyone. Based on the OP's preferred career path, it might not be worth it for him or her.

I agree with your later points regarding OP determining whether a clerkship fits into his preferred career path, but a few general points:

1. Harvard's federal clerkship rate is 18% and Stanford's is 28%. That isn't a negligible amount of students.

2. OP in this situation is only going to be graduating from H or S with around 75k in debt. That's a bargain.

[Ti Malice]

2. There are other threads that go into this better, but the school-funded positions can be hard to decode because at Yale and Harvard these are not safety nets for people striking out at OCI, but rather ways to break into PI because PI orgs are so short on money right now. Someone did some digging on HLS's school funded positions from a year or two ago and many of the people, after the money expired, were working at fairly desirable firms or long-term PI positions. There were a few crummy outcomes, but it was out of 30 people or so. In sum, these are in many cases not undesirable outcomes, and as I said some people aim at these things.

I was the one who did the digging actually , which is why I deliberately didn't include the school funded jobs. I still think, all things considered, you'd want to avoid them.

I'm curious as to what you mean by this exactly, aside from the self-evident observation that taking a PI fellowship is a higher-risk path than BigLaw. As you well know, there are a pretty good number of folks who come here entirely focused on the PI path and dead-set against working in BigLaw. I suppose you could argue that a singular focus on PI is wrongheaded in and of itself, but arguments on either side of that claim will just be statements of personal preferences. What should these folks be doing in PI law after graduation that doesn't involve starting off with one of these fellowships?

Working at an organization that will actually hire them? Unless you're talking International Human Rights or you just have to work for the ACLU, it's pretty rare (as I understand it at least) that organizations that do the work you want literally don't hire entry-level. It's not like everyone who's doing PI at Yale is being paid by the school to do it. For instance, a bunch of the fellowships are for Gov agency positions, which are obviously tough to land, but certainly exist. I'm not saying a PI-focused person should prefer Biglaw to the fellowship (and the timing means you can't really make that choice anyway), but I wouldn't advise anyone to give up hustling for a job because they can always fallback on the fellowship.

Yes, for the people that want to work at an organization that will hire entry-level, it's obviously not an issue.

My understanding from talking to some PI-only 3Ls is that these fellowships are a bit more necessary for getting started with a number of PI organizations ITE than you seem to think, but I'm obviously just going off of their impressions. I gather that there are also several high-achieving folks (federal clerkships lined up, etc.) who want to do some fairly unorthodox projects/work for which they'll need fellowship support. There are probably a few people who didn't have much in the way of other options, but it certainly didn't seem that most were "falling back" on the fellowships, according to the 3Ls I spoke with.

Would love to be able to get my hands on better data.

[Elston Gunn]

My understanding from talking to some PI-only 3Ls is that these fellowships are a bit more necessary for getting started with a number of PI organizations ITE than you seem to think, but I'm obviously just going off of their impressions. I gather that there are also several high-achieving folks (federal clerkships lined up, etc.) who want to do some fairly unorthodox projects/work for which they'll need fellowship support. There are probably a few people who didn't have much in the way of other options, but it certainly didn't seem that most were "falling back" on the fellowships, according to the 3Ls I spoke with.

Would love to be able to get my hands on better data.

Right. I'm sure there are lots and lots of organizations that don't hire entry level, but surely most areas have at least some jobs available. I fully acknowledge I could be wrong about that, though, and I know PI hiring is much much more difficult than Biglaw ITE.

Personally, I would take a job slightly outside my specific desired area over a fellowship perfectly in line with what I want. That's mostly what I mean when I say I would want to avoid school funded jobs. I can understand why others (especially the very well-credentialed) would see it the other way.

[az21833]

guys really torn between H/S/P. cant sleep haha

[Nelson]

Paying cash for an overpriced law school is only slightly less dumb than taking out usurious loans for it. Penn is perfectly fine for biglaw, you want NYC, and it's free. This doesn't seem that tough to me.

[Emma.]

Your parents will pay 1/3 of your total CoA for Harvard/Stanford, but then if you take Penn they'll only pay 1/3 of your living expenses? Would they consider putting the difference into a savings account for you to help pay a deposit on a house or something? Or pay all your living expenses at Penn?

[jbagelboy]

guys really torn between H/S/P. cant sleep haha

go to harvard bro. I know how bad you wanted it. you won't regret it. and they have the best links for top M&A/financial law positions, which seems to be up your alley (although if I were you I would not have withdrawn from CLS quite so soon). just wish i could join you at hls!

also: in response to the poster above, $70-80K in debt is hardly onerous on a $160K+ guaranteed salary w/ bonus, which will be higher in your fields. if it ever really became a problem, your parents might even be able to bail you out, but someone with your tenacity and record of excellence is not going to drop out of society or get fired, or graduate bottom half of the class

[az21833]

no, they are just paying 1/3 of COA no matter what that is. so if I attend Penn they'd just pay 25K towards COL and i'd pay 50K out of savings. Would graduate with like 30K of savings and no debt. sorry this is so confusing... i wouldnt ask for any more out of them in that situation

[dixiecupdrinking]

You should absolutely not pay a premium for clerkship opportunities because if you want to do corporate law you will not end up clerking. Seriously, applying for clerkships is a pain in the ass and it won't be worth it. Very few corporate lawyers clerk. So go to Penn.

[Emma.]

no, they are just paying 1/3 of COA no matter what that is. so if I attend Penn they'd just pay 25K towards COL and i'd pay 50K out of savings. Would graduate with like 30K of savings and no debt. sorry this is so confusing... i wouldnt ask for any more out of them in that situation

So for Harvard you'd pay $80K from savings, your parents would pay $80K, and take on nearly $80K in debt?

Really that means Harvard would be costing you (personally, not including your parents contribution) $160K. Your total costs for Penn would be $110K less than Harvard.

Since you are lucky to have this generous contribution from your parents, it isn't a crazy decision. I'd definitely take Penn in your shoes, but if HLS or SLS has been your dream for years, maybe you should just bite the bullet and go to your dream school.

[jbagelboy]

So go to Penn.

but Cambridge is so much nicer than philly....

[Myself]

.

[az21833]

Right, I could easily see myself doing litigation as well depending on what sparks my interest while in law school and want to make sure that route with the clerkship remains a possibility. either way I see myself in biglaw, m&a is just what I know best at this stage given my WE

And correct Emma - debt wise id graduate with about 75K at H/S and 0K at Penn.

Personal Contribution (Debt + Personal Savings) it would be 150K at H/S (75K debt, 75K savings) and 50K at Penn (2/3 of COL, all from savings without debt).

Again, i (as well as my parents) have put this money aside specifically to pay for law school so I am not too concerned about spending it, that is why im focused on the 75K vs 0K debt figure rather than 150K vs 50K expenditure comparison.

really torn between the three still. no one choice is standing out to me - H seems like the best fit, S seems like the best school and P seems like, well, the most logical given my comparatively modest goals. hoping to find some clarity at work today

[bernaldiaz]

Right, I could easily see myself doing litigation as well depending on what sparks my interest while in law school and want to make sure that route with the clerkship remains a possibility. either way I see myself in biglaw, m&a is just what I know best at this stage given my WE

And correct Emma - debt wise id graduate with about 75K at H/S and 0K at Penn.

Personal Contribution (Debt + Personal Savings) it would be 150K at H/S (75K debt, 75K savings) and 50K at Penn (2/3 of COL, all from savings without debt).

Again, i (as well as my parents) have put this money aside specifically to pay for law school so I am not too concerned about spending it, that is why im focused on the 75K vs 0K debt figure rather than 150K vs 50K expenditure comparison.

really torn between the three still. no one choice is standing out to me - H seems like the best fit, S seems like the best school and P seems like, well, the most logical given my comparatively modest goals. hoping to find some clarity at work today

Have you decided? Our options and situations are eerily similar. The thread I made with my circumstances-- http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=207448