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(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school(s) should we choose?

CLS/NYU
49
54%
Duke
34
38%
Penn
7
8%
 
Total votes: 90

Big Dog
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby Big Dog » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:42 am

isn't better to have taken out loans for a degree that holds more promise for realizing my ultimate career ambitions?


For you, perhaps. But not him. And more importantly, the real question is how realistic is that "promise"? If there is say, <1% chance of you getting into "international law", is it worth the risk?

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:57 am

Sounds like you mainly want affirmation that doing NYU and CLS isn't a terrible idea. I think it isn't a terrible idea.

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UtilityMonster
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby UtilityMonster » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:57 am

Wow, and I thought I was a prestige whore.

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DaleCooper
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby DaleCooper » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:06 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Sounds like you mainly want affirmation that doing NYU and CLS isn't a terrible idea. I think it isn't a terrible idea.


This. I faced a very similar decision, and ultimately decided that I was willing to take the financial hit for a very small chance at something big(ger than BigLaw). I'll buy y'all a couple drinks when you get here. :-)

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:33 pm

Big Dog wrote:
isn't better to have taken out loans for a degree that holds more promise for realizing my ultimate career ambitions?


For you, perhaps. But not him. And more importantly, the real question is how realistic is that "promise"? If there is say, <1% chance of you getting into "international law", is it worth the risk?


I'm surprised by the lack of objections to the NYU/Columbia (or some combination thereof) route. None of your options give you a realistic chance at UN/international humans rights law and together you'll be saddled with 550k in debt upon graduation. Compare that to Duke, where you'll probably have 350k in debt, and Duke seems like the clear-cut winner in this case.

W/r/t to the UN/human rights thing, my view is that your chances of getting it are about the same (near zero) unless you're graduating HYS. You can try to get your daddy to pull strings regardless of where you go to school, and at the end of the day Duke is still a top law school. I don't think having a JD from Duke would foreclose any international options significantly more than a Penn/Columbia/NYU JD would.

Eta: Because of your unique living situation, might be helpful to post total COA estimates for the two of you instead of scholarship amounts.

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby DoveBodyWash » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:36 pm

MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:
Big Dog wrote:
isn't better to have taken out loans for a degree that holds more promise for realizing my ultimate career ambitions?


For you, perhaps. But not him. And more importantly, the real question is how realistic is that "promise"? If there is say, <1% chance of you getting into "international law", is it worth the risk?


I'm surprised by the lack of objections to the NYU/Columbia (or some combination thereof) route. None of your options give you a realistic chance at UN/international humans rights law and together you'll be saddled with 550k in debt upon graduation. Compare that to Duke, where you'll probably have 350k in debt, and Duke seems like the clear-cut winner in this case.

W/r/t to the UN/human rights thing, my view is that your chances of getting it are about the same (near zero) unless you're graduating HYS. You can try to get your daddy to pull strings regardless of where you go to school, and at the end of the day Duke is still a top law school. I don't think having a JD from Duke would foreclose any international options significantly more than a Penn/Columbia/NYU JD would.


+1

Also, i know this thread is primarily concerned with debt/job prospects, but it might make it easier for your actual relationship if you're on the same campus. Columbia and NYU are both in Manhattan but they're still different schools and a subway ride apart. The ability to spend time together on campus and socialize with the same group of classmates could make things a little easier. Just my $0.02

20141023
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby 20141023 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:21 pm

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby DoveBodyWash » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:22 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
cusenation wrote:+1

Also, i know this thread is primarily concerned with debt/job prospects, but it might make it easier for your actual relationship if you're on the same campus. Columbia and NYU are both in Manhattan but they're still different schools and a subway ride apart. The ability to spend time together on campus and socialize with the same group of classmates could make things a little easier. Just my $0.02

It might also make it harder on their relationship because they could be competing with each other for grades if they take the same classes, and when one of them under-performs, it might cause some animosity. I personally would prefer living in the same town but going to a different school if my wife and I were in the same situation.


True true, i guess it'll depend partly on the nature of the relationship but I could see how the prospect of competing against each other could lead to some friction

pastapplicant
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby pastapplicant » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:25 pm

This thread is a waste of time. I think OP just wants reassurance that it is a good idea to go to CLS/NYU at sticker price.

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bananapudding88
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby bananapudding88 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:38 pm

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TooOld4This
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby TooOld4This » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:41 pm

$6000 per month for 10 years. With a lawyer spouse LRAP or IBR is unlikely to reduce the payment.

The Columbia name will not buy the OP that much of a chance at her desired outcomes.

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bananapudding88
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby bananapudding88 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:55 pm

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OutCold
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby OutCold » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:10 pm

aiaea wrote:FWIW my husband to be wants to do BigLaw/in house 4lyfe.

So does just about everyone--until you actually get there and 50% of your entering class washes out by the end of year two.

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bananapudding88
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby bananapudding88 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:11 pm

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Last edited by bananapudding88 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dissonance1848
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby dissonance1848 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:19 pm

OP, what are your and your fiancee's numbers? I saw a 3.83/168 in this thread. Even if you two have taken three times, I think it would be worth it for you two to work for a few years, then retake, kill it, and take the scholly money.

Since you are both going to law school, going at sticker would take a terrible financial toll.

Having well over 500k in debt between the two of you would severely restrict your work/life options for a while, as well as put stress on the relationship (financial stress is a major contributor to breakups/divorce).

If you two insist on going now, then you should both go to Duke, if you are unwilling to go to different schools, in which case they should go to Duke, and you to Penn.

Big Dog
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby Big Dog » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:24 pm

I'm surprised by the lack of objections to the NYU/Columbia (or some combination thereof) route.


Because, IMO, the $62k is worth the greater prestige for the OP's goals/dreams, regardless of how low her chances.

And because, while I did vote for CLS, I also recommended a retake. A URM with a high LSAT would get paid even more to attend. Bingo, debt problem solved. (And a really high LSAT puts Harvard into play, which is an even better prestige-whorish result. H is the gold standard for international wannabes)
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DaleCooper
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby DaleCooper » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:28 pm

aiaea wrote:However, I do not agree that I have <1% shot at a career in the UN. My chances are significantly higher than that given my professional (previous work exp with major int'l NGOs including the UN) and personal background.


I think this is a key point. TLS treats everybody as a K-JD (or its functional equivalent, a K-TFA-JD). What I've discovered since I got to law school was that, given my distinctly un-K-JD background, there are unusual and rarely-mentioned doors open to me that are off-limits to the average NYU law student. Those doors are very different than the ones that would have been available at Duke, though Duke would have offered doors that aren't available here. Neither one was something I could have learned from TLS or LST.

I can't tell you whether you're being realistic or naive (possibly both), but I don't think anyone else here can, either. I recommend talking to a professor in the field at each school and seeing what they say. I've found that the professors shill way less than admissions or career services people, and will be very candid with you if you make it clear that you are looking for candor.

I agree, but being in NY through law school could help me make more connections + access to NYU and Columbia's alumni networks could make it worth it. Who knows though? :(


This is a very real thing that TLS discounts. On the other hand, debt is real, too.

I don't think there's a bad decision to make here. I do think there are two very different decisions, however, and it sounds like you haven't done enough research to choose correctly yet.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:34 pm

$62,000 is a lot of money but it isn't the end of the world. Borrowing half a million is obviously a lot of money but if you're going to combine the debt loads like that, then keep in mind you two will be making $300,000+. It's not insane. TLS tends to start and finish these decisions by comparing cost to NLJ numbers—and for good reason, but it shouldn't be the end of the discussion.

20141023
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby 20141023 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:40 pm

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bananapudding88
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby bananapudding88 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:49 pm

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quakeroats
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby quakeroats » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:58 pm

aiaea wrote:Thank you so much kappycaft1! So helpful to see it depicted this way. I agree the amount is not totally unmanageable, but we would really have to commit and stick to this 5/6 year plan. 60K to live on is reasonable I believe, especially since there'll be two of us thus living costs can be more easily minimized.

So basically it's like DaleCooper said: there isn't a WRONG choice, there are just DIFFERENT choices. Life 5 years post law school might look very different depending on where we go to school and how much debt we still owe/ our options. However, after that point, when law school is over and paid for, which degree will we value just a tiny bit more? I still think it would be Columbia for me, but also acknowledge that at that point I might be so mentally and physically exhausted that I'm just bitter :D


As far as debt's concerned, look up the thread on IBR. Briefly, it doesn't matter how much you borrow anymore. Your payments are limited to just under 10% of your income and forgiven in 20 years if a balance remains. Duke and NYU are equivalent for placement, but CLS is better. FYI, wont is spelled without an apostrophe when it's not a contraction.

Elite Outcomes (Combined “Big Law, More or Less” and “Federal Clerks” categories)
1. Stanford University 72.9%
2. Columbia University 69.5%
3. University of Pennsylvania 67.1%
4. Yale University 66.4%
5. Harvard University 65.0%
6. Northwestern University 61.4%
7. Duke University 56.1%
8. University of Chicago 54.2%
9. New York University 54.1%
10. University of California—Berkeley 51.3%

20141023
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby 20141023 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:09 pm

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DorianGray89
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby DorianGray89 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:12 pm

Ramsey wrote:I think you should go to Columbia and your fiance to NYU. If you want to work abroad, especially in UN or other int'l orgs, names really matter. For those jobs you need to have connections (and in some cases it's all about having the right connections) and going to Columbia and living in NYC will give you far more chance to network. Duke is yet to have much name recognition outside the States and its alumni network in international law is not as strong as Columbia. If you are applying for fellowships and other scholarships, the name Columbia will give you higher chance of obtaining them too.


Duke has a strong reputation abroad, mainly because of its JD/LLM program, if you want to work abroad your 1L summer, Duke will basically hand you a job with a law firm or NGO abroad because of all the connections it has internationally. You give your resume to Duke and they take care of it. I know people who worked with international courts and tribunals in The Hague, South Africa and Rwanda during their 1L summer, and they got these jobs through the career center connections. Duke is also starting an International Human Rights Clinic next year. We have a really strong international law faculty and a good number of alums at the state department legal office. Duke is a great place to go if you want to do international law.

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bananapudding88
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby bananapudding88 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:16 pm

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bananapudding88
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby bananapudding88 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:21 pm

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