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(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school(s) should we choose?

CLS/NYU
49
54%
Duke
34
38%
Penn
7
8%
 
Total votes: 90

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bananapudding88
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby bananapudding88 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:03 pm

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Last edited by bananapudding88 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby JamMasterJ » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:10 pm

dabbadon8 wrote:Its called odds. There's a nfl combine for a reason. Its not perfect but its predictive. A wide receiver with a 8.0 40 time doesn't go in the first round because his odds of success are lower. The lsat is similarly given for a reason. It isn't perfect but don't pretend that not even being in the ballpark as your classmates doesn't have predictive value.

Horrible analogy

dabbadon8 wrote:Hmm so, her grades won't matter to get a big law job. And, not only that, she'll be able keep that job as long as she has a pulse, defintely for long enough to pay off 300k. Then with her grades, which won't matter, she'll go work at the UN. Sounds great. I'm not saying gpa/lsat is the end all predictor of success, but I think you guys are are giving naïve advice that disregards the only predictor of success, the importance of grades, the burnout/up-or-out nature of biglaw, and the competitiveness of her end career goal.


horrible strawman

dabbadon8
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby dabbadon8 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:13 pm

NanaP wrote:
dabbadon8 wrote:Its called odds. There's a nfl combine for a reason. Its not perfect but its predictive. A wide receiver with a 8.0 40 time doesn't go in the first round because his odds of success are lower. The lsat is similarly given for a reason. It isn't perfect but don't pretend that not even being in the ballpark as your classmates doesn't have predictive value.



You're an idiot and the garbage you just wrote shows you know nothing about sports.....worst analogy I've ever seen....,


Yes, I'm an idiot for thinking the only predictor of law school success is, in fact, vaguely predictive. I don't see you guys insulting people who suggest full ride recepients have a better chance of success then the rest of the class.
Last edited by dabbadon8 on Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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whosonfirst
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby whosonfirst » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:13 pm

Have you thought about the impact of CLS/NYU debt on future kids? Or having kids on paying off debt? Just some food for thought.

My $0.02: Go to Penn with 60k; fiance should continue working in Philly. You should finish school and begin doing biglaw and work out his immigration status before he begins school. This'll ease the debt pressure and the immigration issues. You'll be living in the same city, not competing, not spending 24/7 together. 3 years later, your debt will only need two more years of biglaw and your combined debt won't require $60k frugality. After two more years, his income can support your pursuit of international work and the three years remaining on his own debt. And if you were to have kids somewhere along the way, you won't be SOL trying to support yourselves in NYC + a kid + your debt.

Yes, you lose Columbia's name but you have UN connections already. If you are qualified for a job, you are qualified - a quick google search will confirm that Penn is a great school for anyone who hasn't heard of it. If your UG is prestigious enough, few will assume you went to a terrible law school. More likely, they'll automatically rank Penn with your UG if they truly haven't heard of it. Lastly, if needed, you can pursue an MA later at Columbia to get the extra name recognition and alumni connections.

Edit: Just saw you made your decision. Best of luck!

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bananapudding88
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby bananapudding88 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:21 pm

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Last edited by bananapudding88 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

buster
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby buster » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:30 pm

aiaea wrote:
whosonfirst wrote:Have you thought about the impact of CLS/NYU debt on future kids? Or having kids on paying off debt? Just some food for thought.


This was a legitimate concern for me, and honestly one of the main reasons I wanted to have less debt. But then I thought I'm only 23 and hopefully by the time I pop out our first kid I'll be halfway done with debt, or almost there, which isn't an awful place to be. Plus BigLaw (if that's where I am when we have our first child) has surprisingly supportive maternity/paternity leave policies. Either way, I don't think we're ruining our chances at having kids and being able to raise them by choosing NYU/CLS.


FWIW, I think that's the right choice. I'm working in biglaw now and speak with the advantage of hindsight. While my situation when looking into law schools was not exactly the same, my spouse and I were both trying to coordinate cities. I think in the end, with those two schools, you can't go wrong. For you guys, I think the debt concern isn't as important as doing all you can to increase your chances of landing those dream jobs. At least that was my approach, and I'm very happy with how it all turned out.

Redfactor
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby Redfactor » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:12 pm

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Last edited by Redfactor on Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NanaP
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby NanaP » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:21 pm

Redfactor wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Redfactor wrote:I think you should evaluate your performance history, as it appears to be much weaker than your resume would indicate. You are going to matriculate at the bottom of both performance-based indicators. Doesn't bode well for you.

What is the basis for this?


We have limited knowledge of the OP, but like dabbadon8 has been saying, her numbers are not impressive. She will matriculate into a class of pretty much pure super-acheivers, which her past performance indicates she isn't.

I subscribe to a similar thought process as dabbadon8 and thus would urge OP to hedge if it makes sense.

But, sounds like she and her SO have made their decisions and I wish them well at CLS and NYU! Enjoy NYC and you'll be close to family, which I feel is important, too.



What do you know about the OP and her past performance other than her lsat score?

Redfactor
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby Redfactor » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:45 pm

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Last edited by Redfactor on Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:05 am

first, congrats on your acceptances and decision. my sig other and i will most likely be at nyu/cls or nyu/nyu too, maybe see you there.

sounds like daddy is a big deal. you got into cls with that gpa/lsat, that might never happen in another cycle again even as urm. why not have him pay for you & husband = no debt

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bananapudding88
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby bananapudding88 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:57 am

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Last edited by bananapudding88 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Purplebook
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby Purplebook » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:02 am

Redfactor wrote:
GPA


Wow, Redfactor it might be best for you to worry about your own performance in law school if you're jumping to conclusions like this (unless you're just being petty of course). For all you know OP could be some sort of genius who had a bad semester/year due to a death in family.

TooOld4This
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby TooOld4This » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:15 am

I'm amazed at the rationalizations for taking out more than half a million dollars in debt in this thread.

OP, the best way to get the job you want is to go to HYS.

You seem to have accepted that your LSAT precludes you from going that route and are now focused on the next best alternative. Why are you unwilling to accept that the debt load makes the NYU/CLS option similarly unavailable to you?

Every year you have to work in BigLaw will make hopping over to international law harder. The hours you will be required to work will make doing relevant writing or research or networking virtually impossible. While you have gone corporate, others who share your interests will have taken fellowships and low paying jobs that are building relevant experience.

The crushing debt you will face will make surviving BigLaw all the harder. If you don't have a credible belief that if they fired you tomorrow you would still be OK, managing stress and hours becomes next to impossible.

People with the best of intentions find that aggressive loan pay-off seldom works as well as they plan. The stress of the job generally means more money gets spent across the board. Saving money is an investment in time, something you will have previous little of.

If you really wanted to optimize your chances, you could wait to do law school until you are able to retake the LSAT. You could get a job that is relevant to your interests. If you don't want to go that route, you should recognize that debt will stand in the way of what you want to do. IMHO, the risk that your resume will be unsuited to the job you want by the time you can afford to start pursuing it is far greater than the risk that the Duke (or other T14) name on your resume would be the reason you don't get a job. Yes, you may have to work harder to replicate some of the opportunities, but at least you have some control over that. You won't have control over the debt.

NYstate
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby NYstate » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:32 am

Redfactor wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Redfactor wrote:I think you should evaluate your performance history, as it appears to be much weaker than your resume would indicate. You are going to matriculate at the bottom of both performance-based indicators. Doesn't bode well for you.

What is the basis for this?


We have limited knowledge of the OP, but like dabbadon8 has been saying, her numbers are not impressive. She will matriculate into a class of pretty much pure super-acheivers, which her past performance indicates she isn't.

I subscribe to a similar thought process as dabbadon8 and thus would urge OP to hedge if it makes sense.

But, sounds like she and her SO have made their decisions and I wish them well at CLS and NYU! Enjoy NYC and you'll be close to family, which I feel is important, too.


Just wondering if you attend or graduated from Columbia as you seem to know so much about the class and OPs ability to succeed? Or if not, what basis are you making this claim about the super-achievers at Columbia and her inability to compete? Is that how it works at your law school- the people with the highest numbers did the best?


I mean do you have any actual life experience here or is it just number based?

I am pressing this point because I don't want people to assume their grades and scores mean they will do well or do badly at law school.Relying on odds ( that are based on what study again? I know there was one but I don't recall the reference) are different when you see the reality of how it plays out in real life.

I agree that being near family will be a positive for OP.

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stuckinthemiddle
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby stuckinthemiddle » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:59 am

whosonfirst wrote:Have you thought about the impact of CLS/NYU debt on future kids? Or having kids on paying off debt? Just some food for thought.

My $0.02: Go to Penn with 60k; fiance should continue working in Philly. You should finish school and begin doing biglaw and work out his immigration status before he begins school. This'll ease the debt pressure and the immigration issues. You'll be living in the same city, not competing, not spending 24/7 together. 3 years later, your debt will only need two more years of biglaw and your combined debt won't require $60k frugality. After two more years, his income can support your pursuit of international work and the three years remaining on his own debt. And if you were to have kids somewhere along the way, you won't be SOL trying to support yourselves in NYC + a kid + your debt.

Yes, you lose Columbia's name but you have UN connections already. If you are qualified for a job, you are qualified - a quick google search will confirm that Penn is a great school for anyone who hasn't heard of it. If your UG is prestigious enough, few will assume you went to a terrible law school. More likely, they'll automatically rank Penn with your UG if they truly haven't heard of it. Lastly, if needed, you can pursue an MA later at Columbia to get the extra name recognition and alumni connections.

Edit: Just saw you made your decision. Best of luck!


This actually makes a lot of sense. Has OP responded to this?

And wow. I can't imagine starting a family with half a million dollars in debt. Good luck, OP.

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piccolittle
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby piccolittle » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:04 am

Congrats on making your decision, OP. Columbia opens a lot of doors in both biglaw and international human rights (I have several friends doing this) - though, of course, they are a bit mutually exclusive. I'll be a 3L there next year so I look forward to welcoming you!

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bananapudding88
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby bananapudding88 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:06 am

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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby bananapudding88 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:08 am

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Last edited by bananapudding88 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby Redfactor » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:44 am

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Last edited by Redfactor on Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TooOld4This
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby TooOld4This » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:56 am

aiaea wrote:
TooOld4This wrote:
OP, the best way to get the job you want is to go to HYS.

Not true. I get that this seems to be TLS conventional wisdom, but things play out a bit differently in real life. For example, at the major human rights organization where I currently work (happy to PM you the name, but don't want to divulge here for privacy's sake), most researchers with law degrees graduated from t20 schools but very few are from HYS. I'm sure a degree from the top3 goes a long way and doesn't hurts one's odds, but a degree from any other top school does not by any means preclude success in pursuing the kind of job I ultimately want. I prefer CLS in particular because I want to live in NY ultimately and going to a great school there opens up a world of opportunities in terms of networking, resources, and exposure to the field.

Why are you unwilling to accept that the debt load makes the NYU/CLS option similarly unavailable to you?

Because it's not true. My situation (paying sticker, or near sticker, for a quality degree), is really not that unique. CLS is well known for being stingy with financial aid and, while I'm hoping they give me something, I know I'll be one of many in my class who are taking out a bunch of loans to attend.

Every year you have to work in BigLaw will make hopping over to international law harder. The hours you will be required to work will make doing relevant writing or research or networking virtually impossible. While you have gone corporate, others who share your interests will have taken fellowships and low paying jobs that are building relevant experience.


Again, not true, and here I point to another example at the organization where I currently work (and to which I would LOVE to ultimately return). The executive director of my division graduated law school in the early 90s, spent 5 years doing BigLaw, another 4 as vice president of the legal department at a major bank, and then landed her current job at this human rights organization. A deputy director in another division also spent several years at a corporate law firm in NY before returning to international law work. It's definitely possible to make the switch.

If you don't have a credible belief that if they fired you tomorrow you would still be OK, managing stress and hours becomes next to impossible.

I honestly find it hard to believe ANYONE interested in BigLaw believes that "if they were fired tomorrow, they'd be okay." Obviously being laid off is a huge concern, but that's a leap of faith we all make when we decide to go to law school and enter BigLaw, especially since most of us will have considerable debt by the time we graduate. Some more than others obvi, but being laid off is still a concern for us all.

f you really wanted to optimize your chances, you could wait to do law school until you are able to retake the LSAT. You could get a job that is relevant to your interests.

I DO have a job that is highly relevant to my interests now. In fact, the strength of my professional experiences and the extent to which they've prepared me for a career in the field that interests me are probably the biggest reasons I've had such a relatively good cycle. This isn't me trying to brag, it's a legit explanation for my having landed CLS to begin with.

Finally, for personal reasons, I really can't put off law school any longer (certainly not for 2 years while I re-study and re-take the LSAT). I'm getting married this summer and I really want to start a family as soon as it is financially wise to do so. Putting off law school also means putting off this personal goal which, for me, is not an option.


It's clear you've made up your mind about this, so I'll step out. Before I do, I will just say, I have friends in the field you are interested in. I have also worked in BigLaw, as well as other legal environments, have had major life choices and family decisions impacted by law school debt, and have watched what it has done to many of my friends (some of whom are still paying it well past the 10 year mark).

You have identified a strong emotional need for prestige. Many of the arguments you have made in reacting to my points above can be equally applied to your arguments for CLS. The debt from a law degree can't be extinguished like a house or some other asset. Before you take it on, make sure you aren't over-valuing the practical advantages you are identifying in CLS and under-valuing the impact the debt have on your ability to take advantage of those opportunities. Only you can make that call, and I wish you the best as you pursue your goals.

nouseforaname123
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby nouseforaname123 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:00 pm

TooOld4This wrote:It's clear you've made up your mind about this, so I'll step out. Before I do, I will just say, I have friends in the field you are interested in. I have also worked in BigLaw, as well as other legal environments, have had major life choices and family decisions impacted by law school debt, and have watched what it has done to many of my friends (some of whom are still paying it well past the 10 year mark).


+1. It's so hard to explain to people just how much the debt impacts family decisions.

The odd thing is that she tells us that most researchers at the organization she would love to return to have T20 degrees but she also asserts that Duke wouldn't be good enough for her goals? This doesn't make sense to me.

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:07 pm

Just checking in to say how much I enjoyed this thread. OP came here seeking validation, TLS questions the wisdom of taking out over half a million in debt, then OP shuts down. Gotta love it.

At least you'll have that CLS degree. Good luck in your endeavors.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:17 pm

Did not mean any insult. Certainly you achieved what you have by your own tenacity and intellect, not any nepotism implied I assure you. And lart of the reason Im not reapplying is fear I would miss CLS next cycle; statistically neither if us would have a great shot in the past.

I have a blunt style, and when someone says "my father works at the UN and he can snag me a cool international internship there" ( this was in your OP), I know the salary floor for a position with any influence in that body and it certainly isnt paying-for-law-school prohitive. If your family is not in that position, then please accept my apologies

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Re: Couple Needs Advice! NYU/CLS vs Duke vs. Penn

Postby sinfiery » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:40 pm





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