Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

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Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Penn
37
42%
UVA
11
13%
UCLA
9
10%
Duke
31
35%
 
Total votes: 88

jiazhoujiazhou
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Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby jiazhoujiazhou » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:06 pm

They say that I can't go wrong with any of my options, but I just can't figure out which one is closer to being right... I am really torn and would appreciate any thoughts/suggestions!

Scholarship amount:
U Penn: 75K
UVA: 90K
Duke: 114K
UCLA: 144K

I'm pretty sure I'd want to work in the private sector (I'm international so not that many options). I'm hoping to practice in CA (mostly just for the weather) but I am not 100% sure whether that'll change or whether CA has a market for what I want to do (since I don't know what I want to do). Is UCLA better than Penn for placements in CA including North CA? I have no CA ties.
Heard Duke is very regionalized, true?
Is Penn $15K better than UVA?

Thank you!
Last edited by jiazhoujiazhou on Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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TripTrip
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby TripTrip » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:14 pm

The mods wrote:In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=206299

It looks like you may have posted scholarship amounts, unless your COA at Penn really is $75k. If that's the case, go Penn.
Last edited by TripTrip on Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Micdiddy
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby Micdiddy » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:15 pm

Have you tried negotiating any of these offers up?
I don't know much about Duke and especially nothing about UCLA, but I think it's safe to say Penn is worth 15k more than UVA.
After that it becomes a comparison of debt vs. career prospects. If Duke was giving you what UCLA is, that would prob be my choice, but with this I think I would end up choosing Penn. I know you said you wanted Calo, but you seem lukewarm on it and I am sure you'd rather have a 160k gig anywhere than a 80k gig in Cali (right?). UCLA just doesn't seem to place well, at all, and the Cali schools are all competing pretty heavily and UCI is just beginning to join that fray.
Penn with 75k should place you in Big Law (and I am certain SF Big Law wants a Penn grad WAY WAY more than a UCLA grad), pay off that debt, and then you can see where the road takes you from there.

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Tim0thy222
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby Tim0thy222 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:27 pm

I'd say since you're unsure about CA, you should go to whichever you prefer of UVA and Penn. they'd both get you back to CA and have other options as well. if you go penn though you should get Penn to match UVA. I don't think Penn is worth any more money than UVA.

jiazhoujiazhou
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby jiazhoujiazhou » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:37 pm

TripTrip wrote:
The mods wrote:In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=206299

It looks like you may have posted scholarship amounts, unless your COA at Penn really is $75k. If that's the case, go Penn.


Sorry I reported scholarship amount not COA.

jiazhoujiazhou
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby jiazhoujiazhou » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:39 pm

Tim0thy222 wrote:I'd say since you're unsure about CA, you should go to whichever you prefer of UVA and Penn. they'd both get you back to CA and have other options as well. if you go penn though you should get Penn to match UVA. I don't think Penn is worth any more money than UVA.


I do prefer Penn over UVA, but they wouldn't match UVA, their 75K is the post-negotiation amount :(

jiazhoujiazhou
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby jiazhoujiazhou » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:42 pm

Micdiddy wrote:Have you tried negotiating any of these offers up?
I don't know much about Duke and especially nothing about UCLA, but I think it's safe to say Penn is worth 15k more than UVA.
After that it becomes a comparison of debt vs. career prospects. If Duke was giving you what UCLA is, that would prob be my choice, but with this I think I would end up choosing Penn. I know you said you wanted Calo, but you seem lukewarm on it and I am sure you'd rather have a 160k gig anywhere than a 80k gig in Cali (right?). UCLA just doesn't seem to place well, at all, and the Cali schools are all competing pretty heavily and UCI is just beginning to join that fray.
Penn with 75k should place you in Big Law (and I am certain SF Big Law wants a Penn grad WAY WAY more than a UCLA grad), pay off that debt, and then you can see where the road takes you from there.


Thank you! In what ways would you say that Penn is worth more than UVA? In terms of job placement, or something else? I visited both and felt like they gave similar vibes.

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Tim0thy222
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby Tim0thy222 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:44 pm

jiazhoujiazhou wrote:
Tim0thy222 wrote:I'd say since you're unsure about CA, you should go to whichever you prefer of UVA and Penn. they'd both get you back to CA and have other options as well. if you go penn though you should get Penn to match UVA. I don't think Penn is worth any more money than UVA.


I do prefer Penn over UVA, but they wouldn't match UVA, their 75K is the post-negotiation amount :(


Oh that's too bad. Still, if you like Penn go to Penn. I'm assuming you mean that you like the school better as a matter of personal preference. I definitely wouldn't go to the school you like less over 15k.

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Micdiddy
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby Micdiddy » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:50 pm

jiazhoujiazhou wrote:
Micdiddy wrote:Have you tried negotiating any of these offers up?
I don't know much about Duke and especially nothing about UCLA, but I think it's safe to say Penn is worth 15k more than UVA.
After that it becomes a comparison of debt vs. career prospects. If Duke was giving you what UCLA is, that would prob be my choice, but with this I think I would end up choosing Penn. I know you said you wanted Calo, but you seem lukewarm on it and I am sure you'd rather have a 160k gig anywhere than a 80k gig in Cali (right?). UCLA just doesn't seem to place well, at all, and the Cali schools are all competing pretty heavily and UCI is just beginning to join that fray.
Penn with 75k should place you in Big Law (and I am certain SF Big Law wants a Penn grad WAY WAY more than a UCLA grad), pay off that debt, and then you can see where the road takes you from there.


Thank you! In what ways would you say that Penn is worth more than UVA? In terms of job placement, or something else? I visited both and felt like they gave similar vibes.


Job prospects.

Compare these stats: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=penn

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=uva

Employment score looks identical right? Well hover your cursor over that red star and see the difference. UVA has almost 15% of the score based on school funded jobs, Penn less than 3%. If you want a good idea of how well a school places, look at this website and add the Federal Clerkship Rate and Large Firm score.

Real Madrid
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby Real Madrid » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:54 pm

I'd actually take Duke. They typically place at least as well into big law as UVa, and I believe CA is their second- or third-largest market by number of graduates practicing according to LST.

I think the smaller class size here could help you over, say, a UVa grad if firms are really looking for diversity in their associate classes.

dabbadon8
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby dabbadon8 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:56 pm

How is no one addressing duke. It seems to be the clear best choice. This TLS penn obsession is out of hand when people are voting for it over duke when there is a 40k difference in scholarship money. I also believe duke's tuition and COL are cheaper.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby JamesDean1955 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:10 pm

.
Last edited by JamesDean1955 on Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Real Madrid
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby Real Madrid » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:20 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:Penn is the clear (I repeat CLEAR) choice here. Yes, it is worth 5k/year over uva and yes, it is worth 13k/year over Duke (unless you have strong ties to the south and want to work in the south, then maybe not, but this wasn't mentioned in the OP so I'm assuming thats not the case).

The reason? Employment prospects. Look at LST. And the "TLS Penn obsession" thing is bullshit. Penn is in the same class as CCN (only difference is they are not quite as good when it comes to PI jobs or V10 firm placement, but even then there is a lot of self selection going on there for the PI stuff). And frankly, if you're that much of a prestige whore its V10 or bust for you, go to HYS or don't go to law school.

One last point: if it's CA or bust for you, then if you have strong CA ties, still Penn. Otherwise, TCR is full ride at UCLA or USC, or schollie at Berkeley. You should be able to negotiate UCLA higher.


I do not believe Penn is worth 40k more than Duke (particularly if OP wants CA and also before factoring in COL and tuition). You do have a point w/r/t employment outcomes though, as Penn is definitely on Columbia and Chicago's level (if not above it) in big law placement.

Real Madrid
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby Real Madrid » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:24 pm

One last point: if it's CA or bust for you, then if you have strong CA ties, still Penn. Otherwise, TCR is full ride at UCLA or USC, or schollie at Berkeley. You should be able to negotiate UCLA higher.



LOL. Yes, you should clearly take a Penn scholarship over a Berkeley scholarship (assuming equal amount) when you want to work in California. Genius.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby Doorkeeper » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:32 pm

Penn places 11% to CA. UVA places under 6% to CA. Duke places 12% to CA.

I would choose Penn or Duke here. Duke places just as well into biglaw as UVA and he's getting a bigger scholarship at Duke. This being said, I would probably go Penn because of the better overall biglaw placement and because you're not 100% on CA. It's a subjective judgement on your part though as to whether a 66% vs. 51% biglaw placement rate is worth $40k to you.

jiazhoujiazhou
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby jiazhoujiazhou » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:57 pm

Thanks guys for all your replies!
I know that Duke has equal CA placement number as Penn. But for some reason I just keep hearing the "Duke=the south" talk...
I guess job prospects is the dominant factor here, but are these schools distinguishable in terms of academics? Each has its own big thing or not really?

dabbadon8
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby dabbadon8 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:28 pm

Chicago - 35.3% IL, 16.7% NY, 13% CA
Duke - 21.3% NY, 13.8% DC, 12% CA
Penn - 38.9% NY, 17.8% PA, 9.6% CA
Columbia - 67.4% NY, 7.2% CA, 6.8% DC
NYU - 61.4% NY, 10.4% CA, 7.7% DC

Here are the LST numbers for regional placement. I am reasonably sure that a good portion of Penn's advantage in placement is due to it's close proximity to two major cities. Personally having done CBs in NYC, I know there were way more people there from local or local-ish schools. If I were running a firm and I had a choice between calling back two identical people from peer schools and one could drive in and the other I had to fly in on short notice, feed, and provide a hotel for, I would probably call back the kid who would cost way less to recruit. I'm sure that the NYC area schools get more CBs at NYC firms for this reason. More CBs presumably means higher employment numbers. Now this is a clear benefit if you are ok working in one of those cities, don't get me wrong. My point is that I think people are overlooking the logistical advantage of being near NYC for NYC biglaw hiring (or for other metro areas) and presuming that a higher overall placement number means more placement power nationally. I'm not sure that is the case, and the numbers seem to support my doubts (clearly this is not a comprehensive theory).

qwertyboard
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby qwertyboard » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:54 pm

Forget about UCLA and UVA... It's between Duke and Penn.

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hephaestus
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby hephaestus » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:13 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:Penn places 11% to CA. UVA places under 6% to CA. Duke places 12% to CA.

I would choose Penn or Duke here. Duke places just as well into biglaw as UVA and he's getting a bigger scholarship at Duke. This being said, I would probably go Penn because of the better overall biglaw placement and because you're not 100% on CA. It's a subjective judgement on your part though as to whether a 66% vs. 51% biglaw placement rate is worth $40k to you.

I agree with this. I think it is material that OP is international and will thus likely need sponsorship. Big firms are generally the only ones that will do this entry-level.

jiazhoujiazhou
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby jiazhoujiazhou » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:22 pm

qwertyboard wrote:Forget about UCLA and UVA... It's between Duke and Penn.


That seems to be the consensus.

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Br3v
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby Br3v » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:25 pm

UVA and Penn at the same $ would be a simple matter of preference, let alone the 15k difference. If you for sure want (or reasonably expect) California then I second the advice that I would probably go Duke or Penn though because they place better there. In your case I feel I would chose Duke, that's a real nice scholarship.

Also,
Penn is in the same class as CCN

No

jiazhoujiazhou
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby jiazhoujiazhou » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:55 pm

Br3v wrote:UVA and Penn at the same $ would be a simple matter of preference, let alone the 15k difference. If you for sure want (or reasonably expect) California then I second the advice that I would probably go Duke or Penn though because they place better there. In your case I feel I would chose Duke, that's a real nice scholarship.

Also,
Penn is in the same class as CCN

No



I wonder if Duke has a better reputation in CA than UVA, or it's just that more Duke people self-select to go to CA

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DaleCooper
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby DaleCooper » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:08 pm

jiazhoujiazhou wrote:I know that Duke has equal CA placement number as Penn. But for some reason I just keep hearing the "Duke=the south" talk...


Those people are idiots.

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:42 pm

I'm liking Duke more and more. Small class sizes of less than 220 ppl, warm weather, excellent placing ability, amazing clerkship numbers.

Duke doesn't get a lot of respect on TLS that it should deserve. I would choose Duke for a native citizen but...

The elephant in the room is that OP is international student. He would need as much help as possible to score a firm that will sponsor him. I would go Penn in this situation as the larger class size should attract a larger # of employers that are willing to recruit the OP. Cali or otherwise.

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DorianGray89
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Re: Penn v. UVA v. UCLA v. Duke???

Postby DorianGray89 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:39 pm

jiazhoujiazhou wrote:They say that I can't go wrong with any of my options, but I just can't figure out which one is closer to being right... I am really torn and would appreciate any thoughts/suggestions!

Scholarship amount:
U Penn: 75K
UVA: 90K
Duke: 114K
UCLA: 144K

I'm pretty sure I'd want to work in the private sector (I'm international so not that many options). I'm hoping to practice in CA (mostly just for the weather) but I am not 100% sure whether that'll change or whether CA has a market for what I want to do (since I don't know what I want to do). Is UCLA better than Penn for placements in CA including North CA? I have no CA ties.
Heard Duke is very regionalized, true?
Is Penn $15K better than UVA?

Thank you!



Duke places really well in California, know a lot of 2Ls going to CA for summer jobs - after all, one of our most famous alums was from CA (nixon)




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