UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

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epgenius
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UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby epgenius » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:59 pm

I know t14 are ideal but I was wondering if it would truly be worth it to go to Cornell at sticker over UCLA or USC. I live in LA and would either like to be here, NY or DC eventually... the upside about my family being here is that, although I don't plan on living at home, a lot of ancillary costs (probably up to 5-8k a year) could be covered by being close to my family. Anyone have any ideas?

rad lulz
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby rad lulz » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:00 pm

What is total debt at time of graduation. Includ cost if living and interest.

epgenius
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby epgenius » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:09 pm

rad lulz wrote:What is total debt at time of graduation. Includ cost if living and interest.


Sorry, I'd be looking at:

UCLA = 186k

USC = 165k

Cornell = 225k

BigZuck
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:08 pm

epgenius wrote:
rad lulz wrote:What is total debt at time of graduation. Includ cost if living and interest.


Sorry, I'd be looking at:

UCLA = 186k

USC = 165k

Cornell = 225k


If these were my choices I would not go to law school. Definitely retake the LSAT.

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hephaestus
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby hephaestus » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:12 pm

Are you sure that number is right to Cornell? I go there with 60k and I'll still have close to 200l after interest etc. Unless I am wrong, in which case I owe less than I thought I would.
I'd retake or take Cornell. That price for USC is still too expensive.

Franciscus
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby Franciscus » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:07 pm

ImNoScar wrote:Are you sure that number is right to Cornell? I go there with 60k and I'll still have close to 200l after interest etc. Unless I am wrong, in which case I owe less than I thought I would.
I'd retake or take Cornell. That price for USC is still too expensive.


You're right. Cornell is more like 270-280k including interest, tuition increases, and COL.

de5igual
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby de5igual » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:14 pm

retake or don't go. shit is way too expensive.

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hephaestus
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby hephaestus » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:18 pm

Franciscus wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:Are you sure that number is right to Cornell? I go there with 60k and I'll still have close to 200l after interest etc. Unless I am wrong, in which case I owe less than I thought I would.
I'd retake or take Cornell. That price for USC is still too expensive.


You're right. Cornell is more like 270-280k including interest, tuition increases, and COL.

I love Cornell but that's insane. Granted, many people do come here at sticker. However, i think the smart play is to retake and get money there next year. Feel free to PM me if you have any cornell specific questions.

epgenius
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby epgenius » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:28 pm

BigZuck wrote:
epgenius wrote:
rad lulz wrote:What is total debt at time of graduation. Includ cost if living and interest.


Sorry, I'd be looking at:

UCLA = 186k

USC = 165k

Cornell = 225k


If these were my choices I would not go to law school. Definitely retake the LSAT.


I feel like this entire website is wholly too elitist. I can't afford to retake the LSAT, I can't afford to waste more time not going to law school. Did everybody on here go to a t14 school with a full ride? Obviously the costs are daunting, but the most I've gotten is 105k from W&L and it'd still cost me over $85,000 to go there so, given I'm proud of the LSAT score I got and I'm proud to have gotten into where I've been accepted, is there any advice that's worth hearing other than just don't go to law school and retake the LSAT? That's obviously not an option.

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WokeUpInACar
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby WokeUpInACar » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:34 pm

epgenius wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
epgenius wrote:
rad lulz wrote:What is total debt at time of graduation. Includ cost if living and interest.


Sorry, I'd be looking at:

UCLA = 186k

USC = 165k

Cornell = 225k


If these were my choices I would not go to law school. Definitely retake the LSAT.


I feel like this entire website is wholly too elitist. I can't afford to retake the LSAT, I can't afford to waste more time not going to law school. Did everybody on here go to a t14 school with a full ride? Obviously the costs are daunting, but the most I've gotten is 105k from W&L and it'd still cost me over $85,000 to go there so, given I'm proud of the LSAT score I got and I'm proud to have gotten into where I've been accepted, is there any advice that's worth hearing other than just don't go to law school and retake the LSAT? That's obviously not an option.

You can't afford to retake the LSAT, but you CAN afford to borrow 200k to attend law school? If you improved your score by 4+ points it would be worth over 50 thousand dollars in scholarships at USC and UCLA.

In actuality, you can't afford NOT to retake the LSAT.

epgenius
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby epgenius » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:37 pm

I feel like this entire website is wholly too elitist. I can't afford to retake the LSAT, I can't afford to waste more time not going to law school. Did everybody on here go to a t14 school with a full ride? Obviously the costs are daunting, but the most I've gotten is 105k from W&L and it'd still cost me over $85,000 to go there so, given I'm proud of the LSAT score I got and I'm proud to have gotten into where I've been accepted, is there any advice that's worth hearing other than just don't go to law school and retake the LSAT? That's obviously not an option.[/quote]
You can't afford to retake the LSAT, but you CAN afford to borrow 200k to attend law school? If you improved your score by 4+ points it would be worth over 50 thousand dollars in scholarships at USC and UCLA.[/quote]


I don't have the time to wait another year, to work for nothing for another year, to try to scrape by while paying off the debt I've already accumulated from my undergrad years. I can't afford to put in the time to studying for the LSAT that I had to put in, I can't afford the stress of another cycle, I can't afford the emotional stress it has put on me, my family and my loved ones. I'd rather see how I do and try to transfer.

Big Dog
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby Big Dog » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:39 pm

see if you can get UCLA to match 'SC's offer and then head to Westwood.

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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby eav1277 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:45 pm

Big Dog wrote:see if you can get UCLA to match 'SC's offer and then head to Westwood.


Why would you suggest that? Employment numbers are similar and instate tuition at UCLA is just about the same as tuition at SC. Try to bargain with LA using the SC offer (then go back to SC if LA increases or matches). Also, if you live in LA, I would consider living with your parents (if possible). I know that wouldn't be ideal, but it's worth the money you'd be saving in COL.

BigZuck
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:46 pm

Last cycle I wasn't thrilled to head back to my sub 30K a year job, especially as someone pushing 30 who had already put off law school for a few years. But I decided to retake and reapply because that was the right thing to do. I don't have any T14 full rides but I have some great schools at reasonable prices, prices that are far more reasonable than the lower T1 options I had last year.

Sometimes we, as grownups, have to do things that make us feel uncomfortable, are hard, or delay gratification. So go put on your big boy pants and do the right thing.

Retake!

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WokeUpInACar
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Postby WokeUpInACar » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:48 pm

epgenius wrote:I don't have the time to wait another year, to work for nothing for another year,

Your post history suggests you graduated in Spring 2012(mayyybe 2011). It doesn't appear like you've struggled for too long.
epgenius wrote: to try to scrape by while paying off the debt I've already accumulated from my undergrad years.

You have undergrad loans???? Oh hey let's just back up the dump truck and shovel 200k more on top of the pile, no problem!
epgenius wrote:I can't afford to put in the time to studying for the LSAT that I had to put in,

You do realize that you'd essentially be getting paid $100+ per hour to study for the LSAT right?
epgenius wrote:I can't afford the stress of another cycle, I can't afford the emotional stress it has put on me, my family and my loved ones.

How about the stress that being over 200k in debt and not being able to get a job as an attorney would put on you, your family, and your loved ones? This is not the most likely outcome, but it is absolutely possible coming from these schools.
epgenius wrote: I'd rather see how I do and try to transfer.

Reallllllllly? So if you get insanely lucky enough to be able to be in the top ~20% of your class at one of these schools and be in a very favorable position to get a job, you'd like to go somewhere else where you can pay sticker and accumulate even MORE debt?

Big Dog
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby Big Dog » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:48 pm

Why would you suggest that?


Visited both and I liked UCLA more. I was non-plussed with 'SC. (Just a personal thing.)

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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:53 pm

epgenius wrote:
Big Zuck wrote:
epgenius wrote:I feel like this entire website is wholly too elitist. I can't afford to retake the LSAT, I can't afford to waste more time not going to law school. Did everybody on here go to a t14 school with a full ride? Obviously the costs are daunting, but the most I've gotten is 105k from W&L and it'd still cost me over $85,000 to go there so, given I'm proud of the LSAT score I got and I'm proud to have gotten into where I've been accepted, is there any advice that's worth hearing other than just don't go to law school and retake the LSAT? That's obviously not an option.

You can't afford to retake the LSAT, but you CAN afford to borrow 200k to attend law school? If you improved your score by 4+ points it would be worth over 50 thousand dollars in scholarships at USC and UCLA.



I don't have the time to wait another year, to work for nothing for another year, to try to scrape by while paying off the debt I've already accumulated from my undergrad years. I can't afford to put in the time to studying for the LSAT that I had to put in, I can't afford the stress of another cycle, I can't afford the emotional stress it has put on me, my family and my loved ones. I'd rather see how I do and try to transfer.


If you think this is bad, wait until you are working biglaw hours, for biglaw money, but paying 75% of it to the government in order to make a dent in 270K of law school debt- that's like 20 grand in interest alone before even touching principal. You get roughly 3 years in biglaw to get that debt down to a reasonable amount- like 100 or 120K. You'd have to pay off around 70K per year to do that, leaving around 25K-30K to live on.

Or worse, you're part of the majority of UCLA or USC students (or significant minority of Cornell students) who do not get a job that allows them to pay off their loans in a comfortable timeframe. Imagine making 50K with that kind of debt.

eric922
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby eric922 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:57 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
epgenius wrote:
Big Zuck wrote:
epgenius wrote:I feel like this entire website is wholly too elitist. I can't afford to retake the LSAT, I can't afford to waste more time not going to law school. Did everybody on here go to a t14 school with a full ride? Obviously the costs are daunting, but the most I've gotten is 105k from W&L and it'd still cost me over $85,000 to go there so, given I'm proud of the LSAT score I got and I'm proud to have gotten into where I've been accepted, is there any advice that's worth hearing other than just don't go to law school and retake the LSAT? That's obviously not an option.

You can't afford to retake the LSAT, but you CAN afford to borrow 200k to attend law school? If you improved your score by 4+ points it would be worth over 50 thousand dollars in scholarships at USC and UCLA.



I don't have the time to wait another year, to work for nothing for another year, to try to scrape by while paying off the debt I've already accumulated from my undergrad years. I can't afford to put in the time to studying for the LSAT that I had to put in, I can't afford the stress of another cycle, I can't afford the emotional stress it has put on me, my family and my loved ones. I'd rather see how I do and try to transfer.


If you think this is bad, wait until you are working biglaw hours, for biglaw money, but paying 75% of it to the government in order to make a dent in 270K of law school debt- that's like 20 grand in interest alone before even touching principal. You get roughly 3 years in biglaw to get that debt down to a reasonable amount- like 100 or 120K. You'd have to pay off around 70K per year to do that, leaving around 25K-30K to live on.

Or worse, you're part of the majority of UCLA or USC students (or significant minority of Cornell students) who do not get a job that allows them to pay off their loans in a comfortable timeframe. Imagine making 50K with that kind of debt.

Why that short? Is it due to burnout or is their a high rate of people being fired? I know working biglaw probably isn't ideal, but if I end up with that much debt I'd probably force myself to stay.
Last edited by eric922 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:02 pm

epgenius wrote:I can't afford to retake the LSAT, I can't afford to waste more time not going to law school.

You can't afford that yet you can afford to take 6 figures out in debt? lol.
epgenius wrote:I don't have the time to wait another year, to work for nothing for another year, to try to scrape by while paying off the debt I've already accumulated from my undergrad years. I can't afford to put in the time to studying for the LSAT that I had to put in, I can't afford the stress of another cycle, I can't afford the emotional stress it has put on me, my family and my loved ones. I'd rather see how I do and try to transfer.

If the emotional stress of the LSAT and undergrad loans are too much for you then I can't imagine how you'd handle the stress of actual law school exams and actual law school debt.

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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:08 pm

eric922 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
If you think this is bad, wait until you are working biglaw hours, for biglaw money, but paying 75% of it to the government in order to make a dent in 270K of law school debt- that's like 20 grand in interest alone before even touching principal. You get roughly 3 years in biglaw to get that debt down to a reasonable amount- like 100 or 120K. You'd have to pay off around 70K per year to do that, leaving around 25K-30K to live on.

Or worse, you're part of the majority of UCLA or USC students (or significant minority of Cornell students) who do not get a job that allows them to pay off their loans in a comfortable timeframe. Imagine making 50K with that kind of debt.

Why that short? Is it due to burnout or is their a high rate of people being firing? I know working biglaw probably isn't ideal, but if I end up with that much debt I'd probably force myself to stay.


Both, but mostly has to do with the business model, which is a pyramid structure where only 1-2 people might make partner from a class of 50 people. To avoid having more associates than there is work, they cull the herd every few years and just require you to work your ass off.

I know several people with 200K in debt (high for c/o 2012) who are six months in and planning their exit strategies already. It's an emotionally taxing job and whether you have a decent or a bad experience is somewhat arbitrary.
Last edited by timbs4339 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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WokeUpInACar
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby WokeUpInACar » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:08 pm

Also to your elitist comment... It is not that people believe that any of these schools aren't fine institutions and decent choices for many people, it is that they do not offer favorable enough employment outcomes to warrant taking out that much debt to attend. IF you had maxed out your LSAT retakes, this would also be a totally different story. You clearly have not reached your potential, seeing that you averaged 169-172 on practice tests. Refusing to retake because it would be hard for one year is incredibly shortsighted.

epgenius
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby epgenius » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:20 pm

bk1 wrote:
epgenius wrote:I can't afford to retake the LSAT, I can't afford to waste more time not going to law school.

You can't afford that yet you can afford to take 6 figures out in debt? lol.
epgenius wrote:I don't have the time to wait another year, to work for nothing for another year, to try to scrape by while paying off the debt I've already accumulated from my undergrad years. I can't afford to put in the time to studying for the LSAT that I had to put in, I can't afford the stress of another cycle, I can't afford the emotional stress it has put on me, my family and my loved ones. I'd rather see how I do and try to transfer.

If the emotional stress of the LSAT and undergrad loans are too much for you then I can't imagine how you'd handle the stress of actual law school exams and actual law school debt.



Regardless, having no idea my current situation, just assume that to wait would be too stressful. For future reference, can we just assume that going through it all again and retaking is not an option for me. In light of that fact, can we answer my first and only question regarding the schools in question?

epgenius
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby epgenius » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:22 pm

WokeUpInACar wrote:Also to your elitist comment... It is not that people believe that any of these schools aren't fine institutions and decent choices for many people, it is that they do not offer favorable enough employment outcomes to warrant taking out that much debt to attend. IF you had maxed out your LSAT retakes, this would also be a totally different story. You clearly have not reached your potential, seeing that you averaged 169-172 on practice tests. Refusing to retake because it would be hard for one year is incredibly shortsighted.


Let's just assume that retaking is not an option. I asked for a comparison between the schools in question, not whether or not I should retake the LSAT and wait.

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WokeUpInACar
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby WokeUpInACar » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:24 pm

Ahhh the ole' cover ears LALALALALA I'M A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE, please internet tell me what I want to hear, classic.

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hephaestus
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Re: UCLA (5k) vs. USC (20k) vs. Cornell (sticker)

Postby hephaestus » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:29 pm

epgenius wrote:
WokeUpInACar wrote:Also to your elitist comment... It is not that people believe that any of these schools aren't fine institutions and decent choices for many people, it is that they do not offer favorable enough employment outcomes to warrant taking out that much debt to attend. IF you had maxed out your LSAT retakes, this would also be a totally different story. You clearly have not reached your potential, seeing that you averaged 169-172 on practice tests. Refusing to retake because it would be hard for one year is incredibly shortsighted.


Let's just assume that retaking is not an option. I asked for a comparison between the schools in question, not whether or not I should retake the LSAT and wait.

I spent the year before law school working as a legal assistant for 26k. It was incredibly valuable and these jobs are easy to get. A year to learn about a legal market you want to practice in (or at least connected to), a year to make connections to lawyers in that city, a year to be financially independent/be an adult for the first time, etc.
The only defensible option here is Cornell at sticker. But thats an insane amount of debt. The rest are too much money/not enough chance of a good payout. However, even that is a distant second to retaking/working.




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