Dayton or Appalachian

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bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:52 am

Familyesq is right about more should drop out after 1L as those grades change the odds but that doesn't change that UD is a poor school.

It's great you were born into a successful family, and feel the need to condescend law students who actually worked hard to get into credible schools because your family $ could 't get tour daughter into a respectable school for big law. However, to imply all schools are equal is ridiculous. At Yale you aren't guaranteed a good job - yeah you can fail out, show up high to interviews, etc. but to say an 80 percent gamble and a 5 percent gamble are comparable is beyond assinine. By your logic, driving to work when there's a .00000001 percent chance of a fatal car accident is a gamble as is speeding 100 mph while chucking a 5th of vodka.

Working for your daddy's family law firm at 35-60k starting is not an ideal outcome for a 200k down payment, and like you said it will require top grades. Therefore, the smart move is to increase one's odds up front, then reasses after 1L as by your logic most should drop out, and 1L will cost 50-70k with nothing to show. Why not minimize the burden, especially if an easily controllable cognitive defet (add) is partly liable for OP's low betting odds coming in.

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philosoraptor
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby philosoraptor » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:10 pm

FamilyLawEsq wrote:OP, I know many UD Law graduates. Some are judges. Some, but very few, have gone on to be partners in Big Law in Ohio and West Virginia. Most remain in the Dayton, Cincinnati and Columbus area. Others have returned to KY, PA, NJ and NY and mostly work in small firms. The facilities are beautiful and Dayton is a larger city which gives many students internship opportunites that Appalachian can not. Dayton has an accelerated program which allows you to finish in 2.5 years and save on living costs. Going to Dayton is no greater a risk than going to any school in the T2-T4 range. If you want Big Law and Big Gov or clerkships, it is not the place to go. If you want to work for a small to mid size firm, return home to practice, or be a DA/PD, it is fine. But as always, you need to kick ass and do well. If your 1L is not successful you should reevalute your decision at that time.
This is some pretty boomerish logic right here. You know Dayton grads who succeeded in the past; therefore it's not too big a risk in the present. You hire law students (and imply that you have hired Dayton grads); therefore other people hire Dayton grads; therefore it's an "OK choice."

How about some data? http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=dayton. Looks to me like $178,526 (or $2,116 a month for ten years) for a 47% chance at becoming a lawyer. And hey, for the class of 2011, "[w]e know that at least 14.9% of this school's graduates made $50,000 or more." Unless you already have a job lined up, there's no way Dayton is worth it. Don't listen to the boomers--except the part about dropping out after 1L year if you do poorly.

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:23 pm

philosoraptor wrote:
FamilyLawEsq wrote:OP, I know many UD Law graduates. Some are judges. Some, but very few, have gone on to be partners in Big Law in Ohio and West Virginia. Most remain in the Dayton, Cincinnati and Columbus area. Others have returned to KY, PA, NJ and NY and mostly work in small firms. The facilities are beautiful and Dayton is a larger city which gives many students internship opportunites that Appalachian can not. Dayton has an accelerated program which allows you to finish in 2.5 years and save on living costs. Going to Dayton is no greater a risk than going to any school in the T2-T4 range. If you want Big Law and Big Gov or clerkships, it is not the place to go. If you want to work for a small to mid size firm, return home to practice, or be a DA/PD, it is fine. But as always, you need to kick ass and do well. If your 1L is not successful you should reevalute your decision at that time.
This is some pretty boomerish logic right here. You know Dayton grads who succeeded in the past; therefore it's not too big a risk in the present. You hire law students (and imply that you have hired Dayton grads); therefore other people hire Dayton grads; therefore it's an "OK choice."

How about some data? http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=dayton. Looks to me like $178,526 (or $2,116 a month for ten years) for a 47% chance at becoming a lawyer. And hey, for the class of 2011, "[w]e know that at least 14.9% of this school's graduates made $50,000 or more." Unless you already have a job lined up, there's no way Dayton is worth it. Don't listen to the boomers--except the part about dropping out after 1L year if you do poorly.

Also, hiring from there requires "killing it" 1L year for what is a small firm with lowish pay.

FamilyLawEsq
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby FamilyLawEsq » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:56 pm

bananapeanutbutter wrote:Familyesq is right about more should drop out after 1L as those grades change the odds but that doesn't change that UD is a poor school.

It's great you were born into a successful family, and feel the need to condescend law students who actually worked hard to get into credible schools because your family $ could 't get tour daughter into a respectable school for big law. However, to imply all schools are equal is ridiculous. At Yale you aren't guaranteed a good job - yeah you can fail out, show up high to interviews, etc. but to say an 80 percent gamble and a 5 percent gamble are comparable is beyond assinine. By your logic, driving to work when there's a .00000001 percent chance of a fatal car accident is a gamble as is speeding 100 mph while chucking a 5th of vodka.

Working for your daddy's family law firm at 35-60k starting is not an ideal outcome for a 200k down payment, and like you said it will require top grades. Therefore, the smart move is to increase one's odds up front, then reasses after 1L as by your logic most should drop out, and 1L will cost 50-70k with nothing to show. Why not minimize the burden, especially if an easily controllable cognitive defet (add) is partly liable for OP's low betting odds coming in.

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romothesavior
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:09 pm

FamilyLawEsq wrote:
bananapeanutbutter wrote:Familyesq is right about more should drop out after 1L as those grades change the odds but that doesn't change that UD is a poor school.

It's great you were born into a successful family, and feel the need to condescend law students who actually worked hard to get into credible schools because your family $ could 't get tour daughter into a respectable school for big law. However, to imply all schools are equal is ridiculous. At Yale you aren't guaranteed a good job - yeah you can fail out, show up high to interviews, etc. but to say an 80 percent gamble and a 5 percent gamble are comparable is beyond assinine. By your logic, driving to work when there's a .00000001 percent chance of a fatal car accident is a gamble as is speeding 100 mph while chucking a 5th of vodka.

Working for your daddy's family law firm at 35-60k starting is not an ideal outcome for a 200k down payment, and like you said it will require top grades. Therefore, the smart move is to increase one's odds up front, then reasses after 1L as by your logic most should drop out, and 1L will cost 50-70k with nothing to show. Why not minimize the burden, especially if an easily controllable cognitive defet (add) is partly liable for OP's low betting odds coming in.

Why do you keep quoting things and not responding to them? Were you trying to say something in response to this?

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:52 am

I am scared actually. Dont want this bozo to tracking me down. I gotta pass the bar, can't be smoking dudes.

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Pneumonia
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby Pneumonia » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:11 am

tag

FamilyLawEsq
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby FamilyLawEsq » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:54 am

The OP asked a very limited question. TLS responded retake or don’t go. Unfortunately, the OP and many others will go to these schools. Some will go informed and others will not. I advised s/he if Big Law, Big Gov or clerkship is their goal Dayton was not for them. I provided OP with some first hand knowledge regarding a few UD graduates. I was told my advice was anecdotal and outdated. I responded that I, as well as other family members, own firms that hire law graduates. This, coupled with the fact that my daughter recently went through this process, gives me a unique and informed perspective about law school hiring that law students nor recent grads (the T 6 grad who called me an asshole) do not have, and will not have until they sit on a hiring committee or make hiring decisions for smaller firms. I know the hiring statistics, as should anyone applying to these schools.

To respond to the silly post above, I can tell you my daughter went to an excellent law school and is in Big Gov as she planned when entering law school. She worked hard, and tailored her law school education with class selection and summer internships to enhance her chances to secure this position. This had nothing to do with my money. She never wanted Big Law. I applaud her and all of you who work hard to accomplish your goals. But not everyone’s goal is the same, so giving the same worn out advice to those who aspire to practice “shit law” as many of you call it is a disservice to TLS and to Ken’s vision. Yes, when created TLS catered to the T-14. TLS has evolved over the years, the advice has to evolve also. If I believe that I am in a better position than law students and recent grads to give advice to this OP in this thread, and this is perceived as being condescending then law may not be the correct career choice for some of you.

I am trying to offer advice to those students who will not be in Big Law, Big Gov or clerk or to those who will be working in small or mid size firms or may go to lower T1 schools on down. The hiring model is different. If the OP asked about T-14 and Big Law, I would respectfully defer to Reasonableman (kudos to you for your sage advice over the years). I offer advice based on 30+ years of practice. Accept it or don’t. But don’t tell me I have no clue what is going with law school hiring.

Attending law school is a risk, no matter what law school you choose. Some of you will lack the personality, the oral skills or common sense to be good lawyers, but you will not know this until you too have invested money to attend. I never said law schools were equal, I said attending any school is a risk as it relates to job prospects. Clearly, this risk is not equal. So, if the OP is going to law school no matter what, and his job prospects are less that 50%, I feel it is appropriate to weigh in to tell him Dayton is a better choice.

Many use solitaire to distress during the day, I am entertained by TLS. I will offer limited advice if anyone cares to listen. If not, I will leave the site if someone can tell me whatever happened to EmmyD/Harry Pothead and whether Your friendly, below 2L with an Offer ever went to Austin to tell the girl how he felt and whether he found a job after being no offered.

To the OP, PM me and I will give some names of attorneys in Dayton to contact about hiring UD grads and the 2013 economic picture. Good luck.

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romothesavior
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:44 am

Yes, you have some insight we don't have. But I don't need to be a hiring partner to be able to analyze Dayton's job data. Its an expensive school that gives you a 50/50 shot at a job and almost no shot at a job that pays well. Its a hyper regional school in a middling market surrounded by other markets in Ohio that are heavily over saturated. Its great that you hire there, and no doubt others do too, but not in big enough numbers to make UD a decent option for most students.

Retaking is almost an option, and no one is forcing OP to go to law school. This is not the place to seek validation for bad investments.

timbs4339
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:50 am

FamilyLawEsq wrote:The OP asked a very limited question. TLS responded retake or don’t go. Unfortunately, the OP and many others will go to these schools. Some will go informed and others will not. I advised s/he if Big Law, Big Gov or clerkship is their goal Dayton was not for them. I provided OP with some first hand knowledge regarding a few UD graduates. I was told my advice was anecdotal and outdated. I responded that I, as well as other family members, own firms that hire law graduates. This, coupled with the fact that my daughter recently went through this process, gives me a unique and informed perspective about law school hiring that law students nor recent grads (the T 6 grad who called me an asshole) do not have, and will not have until they sit on a hiring committee or make hiring decisions for smaller firms. I know the hiring statistics, as should anyone applying to these schools.

To respond to the silly post above, I can tell you my daughter went to an excellent law school and is in Big Gov as she planned when entering law school. She worked hard, and tailored her law school education with class selection and summer internships to enhance her chances to secure this position. This had nothing to do with my money. She never wanted Big Law. I applaud her and all of you who work hard to accomplish your goals. But not everyone’s goal is the same, so giving the same worn out advice to those who aspire to practice “shit law” as many of you call it is a disservice to TLS and to Ken’s vision. Yes, when created TLS catered to the T-14. TLS has evolved over the years, the advice has to evolve also. If I believe that I am in a better position than law students and recent grads to give advice to this OP in this thread, and this is perceived as being condescending then law may not be the correct career choice for some of you.

I am trying to offer advice to those students who will not be in Big Law, Big Gov or clerk or to those who will be working in small or mid size firms or may go to lower T1 schools on down. The hiring model is different. If the OP asked about T-14 and Big Law, I would respectfully defer to Reasonableman (kudos to you for your sage advice over the years). I offer advice based on 30+ years of practice. Accept it or don’t. But don’t tell me I have no clue what is going with law school hiring.

Attending law school is a risk, no matter what law school you choose. Some of you will lack the personality, the oral skills or common sense to be good lawyers, but you will not know this until you too have invested money to attend. I never said law schools were equal, I said attending any school is a risk as it relates to job prospects. Clearly, this risk is not equal. So, if the OP is going to law school no matter what, and his job prospects are less that 50%, I feel it is appropriate to weigh in to tell him Dayton is a better choice.

Many use solitaire to distress during the day, I am entertained by TLS. I will offer limited advice if anyone cares to listen. If not, I will leave the site if someone can tell me whatever happened to EmmyD/Harry Pothead and whether Your friendly, below 2L with an Offer ever went to Austin to tell the girl how he felt and whether he found a job after being no offered.

To the OP, PM me and I will give some names of attorneys in Dayton to contact about hiring UD grads and the 2013 economic picture. Good luck.
'

Amazingly, in your attempt to portray yourself as somehow more "in touch" with legal hiring than us elitist whippersnappers you manage to make yourself sound even more ridiculous. Well done.

The fact that you and your buddies at the bar association have hired law students is irrelevant. Obviously you're not hiring enough, or Dayton wouldn't have a sub-50% employment rate. Until you tell OP why there is going to be a huge entry-level hiring boom in Dayton the next few years, or your buddies are going to start paying 100K entry-level salaries for small law, looking down your nose at people who are going through the hiring process, know what the market is offering, and know what the debt is like comes off as ridiculous.

OP will likely be financing sticker price at Dayton with debt. Even one year at Dayton will run OP about 50k (and it's not just easy to drop out because of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy). If OP could retake, get a better score, and go for near-free, then the cost would much better align with his ultimate goals, which I have no problem with. But, if you want to take on big debt, you need biglaw or PSLF to pay it down. If you want small law or to go solo, then you need to go to a school at low cost. Big debt + small law = bad time. That's common sense. That's TLS in a nutshell. That you haven't gotten the memo that some law students don't have rich parents who can cover their tuition and COL makes you out of touch.

FN: How have you been on TLS for this long and do not know that reasonable_man is actually one of the best posters on here for advice about non-biglaw paths? Read some of his recent posts. He went to an NYC area TTT, did not get biglaw, and admits that luck (as well as I'm sure good ol' boomeriffic bootstrapping) played a big role in his current positive outcome (please correct me R-M if I misrepresented your posting).

FamilyLawEsq
Posts: 110
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby FamilyLawEsq » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:10 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
FamilyLawEsq wrote:The OP asked a very limited question. TLS responded retake or don’t go. Unfortunately, the OP and many others will go to these schools. Some will go informed and others will not. I advised s/he if Big Law, Big Gov or clerkship is their goal Dayton was not for them. I provided OP with some first hand knowledge regarding a few UD graduates. I was told my advice was anecdotal and outdated. I responded that I, as well as other family members, own firms that hire law graduates. This, coupled with the fact that my daughter recently went through this process, gives me a unique and informed perspective about law school hiring that law students nor recent grads (the T 6 grad who called me an asshole) do not have, and will not have until they sit on a hiring committee or make hiring decisions for smaller firms. I know the hiring statistics, as should anyone applying to these schools.

To respond to the silly post above, I can tell you my daughter went to an excellent law school and is in Big Gov as she planned when entering law school. She worked hard, and tailored her law school education with class selection and summer internships to enhance her chances to secure this position. This had nothing to do with my money. She never wanted Big Law. I applaud her and all of you who work hard to accomplish your goals. But not everyone’s goal is the same, so giving the same worn out advice to those who aspire to practice “shit law” as many of you call it is a disservice to TLS and to Ken’s vision. Yes, when created TLS catered to the T-14. TLS has evolved over the years, the advice has to evolve also. If I believe that I am in a better position than law students and recent grads to give advice to this OP in this thread, and this is perceived as being condescending then law may not be the correct career choice for some of you.

I am trying to offer advice to those students who will not be in Big Law, Big Gov or clerk or to those who will be working in small or mid size firms or may go to lower T1 schools on down. The hiring model is different. If the OP asked about T-14 and Big Law, I would respectfully defer to Reasonableman (kudos to you for your sage advice over the years). I offer advice based on 30+ years of practice. Accept it or don’t. But don’t tell me I have no clue what is going with law school hiring.

Attending law school is a risk, no matter what law school you choose. Some of you will lack the personality, the oral skills or common sense to be good lawyers, but you will not know this until you too have invested money to attend. I never said law schools were equal, I said attending any school is a risk as it relates to job prospects. Clearly, this risk is not equal. So, if the OP is going to law school no matter what, and his job prospects are less that 50%, I feel it is appropriate to weigh in to tell him Dayton is a better choice.

Many use solitaire to distress during the day, I am entertained by TLS. I will offer limited advice if anyone cares to listen. If not, I will leave the site if someone can tell me whatever happened to EmmyD/Harry Pothead and whether Your friendly, below 2L with an Offer ever went to Austin to tell the girl how he felt and whether he found a job after being no offered.

To the OP, PM me and I will give some names of attorneys in Dayton to contact about hiring UD grads and the 2013 economic picture. Good luck.
'

Amazingly, in your attempt to portray yourself as somehow more "in touch" with legal hiring than us elitist whippersnappers you manage to make yourself sound even more ridiculous. Well done.

The fact that you and your buddies at the bar association have hired law students is irrelevant. Obviously you're not hiring enough, or Dayton wouldn't have a sub-50% employment rate. Until you tell OP why there is going to be a huge entry-level hiring boom in Dayton the next few years, or your buddies are going to start paying 100K entry-level salaries for small law, looking down your nose at people who are going through the hiring process, know what the market is offering, and know what the debt is like comes off as ridiculous.

OP will likely be financing sticker price at Dayton with debt. Even one year at Dayton will run OP about 50k (and it's not just easy to drop out because of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy). If OP could retake, get a better score, and go for near-free, then the cost would much better align with his ultimate goals, which I have no problem with. But, if you want to take on big debt, you need biglaw or PSLF to pay it down. If you want small law or to go solo, then you need to go to a school at low cost. Big debt + small law = bad time. That's common sense. That's TLS in a nutshell. That you haven't gotten the memo that some law students don't have rich parents who can cover their tuition and COL makes you out of touch.

FN: How have you been on TLS for this long and do not know that reasonable_man is actually one of the best posters on here for advice about non-biglaw paths? Read some of his recent posts. He went to an NYC area TTT, did not get biglaw, and admits that luck (as well as I'm sure good ol' boomeriffic bootstrapping) played a big role in his current positive outcome (please correct me R-M if I misrepresented your posting).


Romo, you and I are saying the same thing. There are too many schools and too many law students. Attorneys can not hire every student, the work is simply not there. I agree that paying full freight to go to Dayton is not wise. Ignoring the employment statistics is not wise. But IF this particular OP is going to go to law school no matter what anyone says, it is my opinion that Dayton is the better of 2 poor options. Again, I answered the specific question asked.

Timbs, I certainly don't think and never said you (the collective you) young posters are elitist. My father went to what is now a T 6. I only mention this because you believe I have some issues with those who go to T-14 schools. I have issues with some of their advice, not their schools or their accomplishments. To me Big Law, Big Gov and clerks are simply lawyers. Many that hold these positions may believe they are elite, I do not. There is no question they are top notch students going to top notch schools, but with time only your body of work and reputation among your peers, clients and judges will determine whether you are an elite attorney. I do not refer to the law that 80% of this board will practice as shit law, others do. It is not elitist to say it, just narrow minded and uninformed about the practice of law outside the major cities.

rad lulz
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby rad lulz » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:15 pm

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

bananapeanutbutter
Posts: 351
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:03 pm

FamilyLawEsq wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
FamilyLawEsq wrote:The OP asked a very limited question. TLS responded retake or don’t go. Unfortunately, the OP and many others will go to these schools. Some will go informed and others will not. I advised s/he if Big Law, Big Gov or clerkship is their goal Dayton was not for them. I provided OP with some first hand knowledge regarding a few UD graduates. I was told my advice was anecdotal and outdated. I responded that I, as well as other family members, own firms that hire law graduates. This, coupled with the fact that my daughter recently went through this process, gives me a unique and informed perspective about law school hiring that law students nor recent grads (the T 6 grad who called me an asshole) do not have, and will not have until they sit on a hiring committee or make hiring decisions for smaller firms. I know the hiring statistics, as should anyone applying to these schools.

To respond to the silly post above, I can tell you my daughter went to an excellent law school and is in Big Gov as she planned when entering law school. She worked hard, and tailored her law school education with class selection and summer internships to enhance her chances to secure this position. This had nothing to do with my money. She never wanted Big Law. I applaud her and all of you who work hard to accomplish your goals. But not everyone’s goal is the same, so giving the same worn out advice to those who aspire to practice “shit law” as many of you call it is a disservice to TLS and to Ken’s vision. Yes, when created TLS catered to the T-14. TLS has evolved over the years, the advice has to evolve also. If I believe that I am in a better position than law students and recent grads to give advice to this OP in this thread, and this is perceived as being condescending then law may not be the correct career choice for some of you.

I am trying to offer advice to those students who will not be in Big Law, Big Gov or clerk or to those who will be working in small or mid size firms or may go to lower T1 schools on down. The hiring model is different. If the OP asked about T-14 and Big Law, I would respectfully defer to Reasonableman (kudos to you for your sage advice over the years). I offer advice based on 30+ years of practice. Accept it or don’t. But don’t tell me I have no clue what is going with law school hiring.

Attending law school is a risk, no matter what law school you choose. Some of you will lack the personality, the oral skills or common sense to be good lawyers, but you will not know this until you too have invested money to attend. I never said law schools were equal, I said attending any school is a risk as it relates to job prospects. Clearly, this risk is not equal. So, if the OP is going to law school no matter what, and his job prospects are less that 50%, I feel it is appropriate to weigh in to tell him Dayton is a better choice.

Many use solitaire to distress during the day, I am entertained by TLS. I will offer limited advice if anyone cares to listen. If not, I will leave the site if someone can tell me whatever happened to EmmyD/Harry Pothead and whether Your friendly, below 2L with an Offer ever went to Austin to tell the girl how he felt and whether he found a job after being no offered.

To the OP, PM me and I will give some names of attorneys in Dayton to contact about hiring UD grads and the 2013 economic picture. Good luck.
'

Amazingly, in your attempt to portray yourself as somehow more "in touch" with legal hiring than us elitist whippersnappers you manage to make yourself sound even more ridiculous. Well done.

The fact that you and your buddies at the bar association have hired law students is irrelevant. Obviously you're not hiring enough, or Dayton wouldn't have a sub-50% employment rate. Until you tell OP why there is going to be a huge entry-level hiring boom in Dayton the next few years, or your buddies are going to start paying 100K entry-level salaries for small law, looking down your nose at people who are going through the hiring process, know what the market is offering, and know what the debt is like comes off as ridiculous.

OP will likely be financing sticker price at Dayton with debt. Even one year at Dayton will run OP about 50k (and it's not just easy to drop out because of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy). If OP could retake, get a better score, and go for near-free, then the cost would much better align with his ultimate goals, which I have no problem with. But, if you want to take on big debt, you need biglaw or PSLF to pay it down. If you want small law or to go solo, then you need to go to a school at low cost. Big debt + small law = bad time. That's common sense. That's TLS in a nutshell. That you haven't gotten the memo that some law students don't have rich parents who can cover their tuition and COL makes you out of touch.

FN: How have you been on TLS for this long and do not know that reasonable_man is actually one of the best posters on here for advice about non-biglaw paths? Read some of his recent posts. He went to an NYC area TTT, did not get biglaw, and admits that luck (as well as I'm sure good ol' boomeriffic bootstrapping) played a big role in his current positive outcome (please correct me R-M if I misrepresented your posting).


Romo, you and I are saying the same thing. There are too many schools and too many law students. Attorneys can not hire every student, the work is simply not there. I agree that paying full freight to go to Dayton is not wise. Ignoring the employment statistics is not wise. But IF this particular OP is going to go to law school no matter what anyone says, it is my opinion that Dayton is the better of 2 poor options. Again, I answered the specific question asked.

Timbs, I certainly don't think and never said you (the collective you) young posters are elitist. My father went to what is now a T 6. I only mention this because you believe I have some issues with those who go to T-14 schools. I have issues with some of their advice, not their schools or their accomplishments. To me Big Law, Big Gov and clerks are simply lawyers. Many that hold these positions may believe they are elite, I do not. There is no question they are top notch students going to top notch schools, but with time only your body of work and reputation among your peers, clients and judges will determine whether you are an elite attorney. I do not refer to the law that 80% of this board will practice as shit law, others do. It is not elitist to say it, just narrow minded and uninformed about the practice of law outside the major cities.

You chastised my advice, but you yourself sent your daughter to a "great law school" that isn't Dayton and like you said from there she had to hustle and make a series of wise decisions to get her job. Presumably she was too good for a position in your small firm, and rightfully so. How deep into Dayton's class would you go, and when you hire are you paying 6 figures as this is what 1 needs to service 150k in debt and start a family.... the average lawyer is 28 when they come out of law school - that's family time. OP will be 34. And are you looking to grow these lawyers to be partners in your law firm, or just using them till they ask for more $ and dumping them out?

No disagreement going to a t-14 doesn't guarantee shit, but there's a straight forward path to financial independence for a significant %age. It seems that best case from Dayton still requires more skills that go beyond just law school, and require luck + advanced business sense like the ability to use their experience at your firm, and then open their own successful firm. The latter is much more rare than merely people with "decent oral skills, decent interpersonal skills, etc."

My previous point was everything is a gamble, but not every gamble is even comparable. Life is about taking a series of smart bets. I fail to see how ever going to law school with a 144 LSAT, and no set job can ever be a smart bet.

FamilyLawEsq
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby FamilyLawEsq » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:44 am

rad lulz wrote:familylawesq I've made up my mind. I'm gonna shoot myself in the face or in the balls. Which one should I do? I've made up my mind to self-harm so don't try to talk me out of it.


Since your mind is made up and you can't be talked out of it, I would suggest you shoot yourself in the balls, just aim a little higher, that way you can still practice law like some of the dickless wonders I have encountered in the last 30 years. Thanks for always keeping it real.

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cahwc12
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby cahwc12 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:06 pm

FamilyLawEsq wrote:
rad lulz wrote:familylawesq I've made up my mind. I'm gonna shoot myself in the face or in the balls. Which one should I do? I've made up my mind to self-harm so don't try to talk me out of it.


Since your mind is made up and you can't be talked out of it, I would suggest you shoot yourself in the balls, just aim a little higher, that way you can still practice law like some of the dickless wonders I have encountered in the last 30 years. Thanks for always keeping it real.


I have to ask: you say you recently went through this process with your daughter, but that would have been at least a year before anything resembling quality employment data existed. How would you have changed your advice to your daughter in light of the realization that most of these schools saw 50% or more of their graduates not becoming lawyers?

And how applicable do you think your personal anecdote is to the general body of applicants asking for advice on this forum who aren't aspiring to be third generation lawyers?

timbs4339
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:18 pm

FamilyLawEsq wrote:Timbs, I certainly don't think and never said you (the collective you) young posters are elitist. My father went to what is now a T 6. I only mention this because you believe I have some issues with those who go to T-14 schools. I have issues with some of their advice, not their schools or their accomplishments. To me Big Law, Big Gov and clerks are simply lawyers. Many that hold these positions may believe they are elite, I do not. There is no question they are top notch students going to top notch schools, but with time only your body of work and reputation among your peers, clients and judges will determine whether you are an elite attorney. I do not refer to the law that 80% of this board will practice as shit law, others do. It is not elitist to say it, just narrow minded and uninformed about the practice of law outside the major cities.


I think we're both assuming a lot about each other, but it seems like you're reflexively coming from a place that just isn't where most of TLS is on this. There's a perceived hierarchy in the law, true, and lawyers of all ages are obsessed with pedigree and rankings. But that really has nothing to do with the advice being offered in this forum, which is that if you want to pay sticker prices for many regional/local schools now you basically need to get a biglaw type salary (or PSLF) to have a shot at a decent standard of living with reasonable loan repayment. If the big firms hired people at 40K per year to do M+A or securities lit I'd say the exact same thing about attending a school at sticker to get one of those jobs.

If I were you, I'd be very angry at the local and regional schools who, in pursuit of some crazy national reputation ranking have decided to jack up tuition and use it to pay their deans and professors. Right now there are a lot of very smart people who might have otherwise practiced family law that are just turned off by having to pay 150 or 200K for a degree. The bar is losing a lot of very promising candidates because people just don't want to be hauling that kind of debt around for 20 years.

As for the term shitlaw, I've probably used it although I try to use small law when possible. But then again, my friends who work in small firms use the term to describe their work, as do many posters over on JDU or veterans of the doc review circuit like areyouinsane. To them it's kind of a term of endearment.

FamilyLawEsq
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby FamilyLawEsq » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:50 pm

cahwc12 wrote:
FamilyLawEsq wrote:
rad lulz wrote:familylawesq I've made up my mind. I'm gonna shoot myself in the face or in the balls. Which one should I do? I've made up my mind to self-harm so don't try to talk me out of it.


Since your mind is made up and you can't be talked out of it, I would suggest you shoot yourself in the balls, just aim a little higher, that way you can still practice law like some of the dickless wonders I have encountered in the last 30 years. Thanks for always keeping it real.


I have to ask: you say you recently went through this process with your daughter, but that would have been at least a year before anything resembling quality employment data existed. How would you have changed your advice to your daughter in light of the realization that most of these schools saw 50% or more of their graduates not becoming lawyers?

And how applicable do you think your personal anecdote is to the general body of applicants asking for advice on this forum who aren't aspiring to be third generation lawyers?


We actually suggested that she not go to law school because of the stress of being a lawyer at any level, except for perhaps big gov. This to me, is as important as the cost of attendance. The key for her and any aspriring law student was/is to research and research some more. I can not stress this enough. Talk to lawyers, shadow them (I do this all the time).

Most people attending law schools are not going to work in Big Law. They are going to be in small law or mid size firms. T-14 law graduates work in these firms. Validictorians of T25 schools work there. TTTT graduates work there. This is the reality. So for those that know they will never be in Big Law or for those that think they will be, but fall short, I want to be a resource for them. I can suggest courses to take and I can, as an employer, discuss hiring trends, anticipated salaries that TLS, for the most part can not provide. It is that simple.

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Meepo
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby Meepo » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:54 pm

dayton isn't bad, especially in ohio

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romothesavior
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby romothesavior » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:10 pm

Meepo wrote:dayton isn't bad, especially in ohio

Statistics say otherwise.

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cahwc12
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby cahwc12 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:44 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Meepo wrote:dayton isn't bad, especially in ohio

Statistics say otherwise.


The best part about LST is seeing scam schools like Dayton slowly crumble. They cut class size almost in half over the last two years and still are dropping medians.

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:13 pm

cahwc12 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Meepo wrote:dayton isn't bad, especially in ohio

Statistics say otherwise.


The best part about LST is seeing scam schools like Dayton slowly crumble. They cut class size almost in half over the last two years and still are dropping medians.

Kind of astonishing the impact 2 law students had on the entire legal profession. They should get some kind of award for something. It was a brilliant idea executed pretty well. They're not Facebook, but they had their own major splash.

dissonance1848
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby dissonance1848 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:18 pm

Since the OP has a 3.6 GPA, I want to know what degree it is? Is there a possibility of a Macc or other Master's degree? They are not cheap, but they cost much less than a law degree, and you could target work more. Just putting it out there.

But like everyone else, save for that boomer poster, do not attend either of those schools, unless its a free ride + living stipend.




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