Dayton or Appalachian

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stillwater
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby stillwater » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:34 pm

tuffyjohnson wrote:If you've got a full ride there are much worse things you could do with your life. So I'l go ahead and say it: Dayton. Keep in mind that 50 percent of this board are Gen Y's who can't handle a lick of risk and expect their entire life to be guaranteed in full with their parents packing them a PBandJ every step of the way. Guess what folks, law school has always been a gamble. More so now, but that's how it is.

I know a solo lawyer who recently went to Dayton and he said the education was excellent. He writes better than you so start working on your writing. It's also got some new buildings on the campus and the town ain't so bad for families if that's your thing).


shitboomer troll

timbs4339
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:34 pm

View10 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Nobody is going to give you 100K to start a small business when you have huge student loan debt

I disagree. When you start a small business, you incorporate and that business assumes its own identity. A small business loan, therefore, would have little or nothing to do with my own credit and would be based on the business. I know this personally from owning a past business. This is why LLCs exist by the way, so that the owners are protected from liability; hence "Limited liability corporation." There are also payment plans set up now so that a law graduate can pay 15% of the annual salary vs. statis monthly payments. All in all, a law school graduate can manage even the largest of student loans until their career picks up and they should be able to get a small business loan.

Now I'm sure there's some technicalities but for the most part I think you're overlooking a lot of stuff. I don't think it would be as bad as a lot of you think.


You have no clients. You have no experience. You are entering a saturated market. Nobody in their right mind is going to loan you the years worth of expenses + ad budget you need to make a go of it solo out of law school. Those are not "technicalities." They are fundamental flaws with your plan. In light of this, banks may also refuse to lend you the money without either a high interest rate or a personal guarantee.

You have to objectively admit that being unable to concentrate on studying for the LSAT is going to severely impact your ability to pass the bar exam, which is a prerequisite to getting the small firm jobs which will give you that 5-7 years of experience and connections you need to go solo. You have much more time, years even, to study for the LSAT. On the bar, it's two months from graduation to the exam date (and no, law school hardly preps you for the bar).

The problem with these "payment plans" are that the debt you are carrying is so high that you won't even be meeting the interest payments. So you'll be trapped in a scenario where your loan balance is growing, faster than you can pay it down with 2% or even 5% annual raises. And again, it assumes you are able to get a lawyer job at all. The shelf life of an unused JD is very short- about a year or so, and then the next crop of graduates is ready. Finally, if you feel fine and dandy taking out a boatload of debt you know you might not ever pay back and pushing that on the taxpayer, then maybe you do belong in the legal profession.

Nobody is saying give up on your dream. But you have to limit the downside of a negative event by limiting your debt. If you can bump your LSAT score, and reduce the cost of these schools to around 60K or so, then it's not such a bad plan. I've recommended to people that they should go solo, and it has always been with low debt.
Last edited by timbs4339 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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nsideirish
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby nsideirish » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:36 pm

stillwater wrote:
tuffyjohnson wrote:If you've got a full ride there are much worse things you could do with your life. So I'l go ahead and say it: Dayton. Keep in mind that 50 percent of this board are Gen Y's who can't handle a lick of risk and expect their entire life to be guaranteed in full with their parents packing them a PBandJ every step of the way. Guess what folks, law school has always been a gamble. More so now, but that's how it is.

I know a solo lawyer who recently went to Dayton and he said the education was excellent. He writes better than you so start working on your writing. It's also got some new buildings on the campus and the town ain't so bad for families if that's your thing).


shitboomer troll


God damn shitboomers.

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cinephile
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby cinephile » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:40 pm

I know a guy who has a $200/month studio above a bar in Dayton. You can definitely live on 16k a year in Dayton, Ohio.

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tuffyjohnson
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby tuffyjohnson » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:41 pm

My parents are boomers bras.

PRgradBYU
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby PRgradBYU » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:45 pm

cinephile wrote:I know a guy who has a $200/month studio above a bar in Dayton. You can definitely live on 16k a year in Dayton, Ohio.


Don't encourage OP!

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tuffyjohnson
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby tuffyjohnson » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:50 pm

PRgradBYU wrote:
cinephile wrote:I know a guy who has a $200/month studio above a bar in Dayton. You can definitely live on 16k a year in Dayton, Ohio.


Don't encourage OP!


There is a FULL scholarship and living stipend! Am I correct? So how is this so bad? How is that worse than working retail?

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tuffyjohnson
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby tuffyjohnson » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:59 pm

timbs4339 wrote:You have to objectively admit that being unable to concentrate on studying for the LSAT is going to severely impact your ability to pass the bar exam


Yeah, this is something.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby somewhatwayward » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:20 pm

If you insist on going to law school, then you need to take another prep class (Kaplan, like Princeton Review, totally sucks...try PowerScore, TestMasters, Manhattan LSAT, Blueprint, 7sage, Velocity, etc) and take the LSAT again. I think that generally if you can manage a 3.6 in college, then you can do better than a 144 on the LSAT. Aim for a score that will get you a full ride without stipulations at a decent school. You should not be paying even a penny in tuition to schools of this caliber, and you don't have to if you improve your LSAT score. If you have to take ADD medication, then take it (and take it in law school also).

View10 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Nobody is going to give you 100K to start a small business when you have huge student loan debt

I disagree. When you start a small business, you incorporate and that business assumes its own identity. A small business loan, therefore, would have little or nothing to do with my own credit and would be based on the business. I know this personally from owning a past business. This is why LLCs exist by the way, so that the owners are protected from liability; hence "Limited liability corporation." There are also payment plans set up now so that a law graduate can pay 15% of the annual salary vs. statis monthly payments. All in all, a law school graduate can manage even the largest of student loans until their career picks up and they should be able to get a small business loan.

Now I'm sure there's some technicalities but for the most part I think you're overlooking a lot of stuff. I don't think it would be as bad as a lot of you think.


I help small businesses incorporate and I can tell you pretty much every bank asks for personal guarantees for fledgling startups and they want to see market research that demonstrates demand, a detailed business plan, etc. There aren't many places where there are demand for legal services from people who can actually afford to pay you (there is plenty of demand from low-income people but obviously that isn't going to be useful if you're 150K in debt to the government and another 100K in debt in the unlikely case that you got a business loan).

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:23 pm

tuffyjohnson wrote:
PRgradBYU wrote:
cinephile wrote:I know a guy who has a $200/month studio above a bar in Dayton. You can definitely live on 16k a year in Dayton, Ohio.


Don't encourage OP!


There is a FULL scholarship and living stipend! Am I correct? So how is this so bad? How is that worse than working retail?

he does not have these.

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:24 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:If you insist on going to law school, then you need to take another prep class (Kaplan, like Princeton Review, totally sucks...try PowerScore, TestMasters, Manhattan LSAT, Blueprint, 7sage, Velocity, etc) and take the LSAT again. I think that generally if you can manage a 3.6 in college, then you can do better than a 144 on the LSAT. Aim for a score that will get you a full ride without stipulations at a decent school. You should not be paying even a penny in tuition to schools of this caliber, and you don't have to if you improve your LSAT score. If you have to take ADD medication, then take it (and take it in law school also).

View10 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Nobody is going to give you 100K to start a small business when you have huge student loan debt

I disagree. When you start a small business, you incorporate and that business assumes its own identity. A small business loan, therefore, would have little or nothing to do with my own credit and would be based on the business. I know this personally from owning a past business. This is why LLCs exist by the way, so that the owners are protected from liability; hence "Limited liability corporation." There are also payment plans set up now so that a law graduate can pay 15% of the annual salary vs. statis monthly payments. All in all, a law school graduate can manage even the largest of student loans until their career picks up and they should be able to get a small business loan.

Now I'm sure there's some technicalities but for the most part I think you're overlooking a lot of stuff. I don't think it would be as bad as a lot of you think.


I help small businesses incorporate and I can tell you pretty much every bank asks for personal guarantees for fledgling startups and they want to see market research that demonstrates demand, a detailed business plan, etc. There aren't many places where there are demand for legal services from people who can actually afford to pay you (there is plenty of demand from low-income people but obviously that isn't going to be useful if you're 150K in debt to the government and another 100K in debt in the unlikely case that you got a business loan).

don't you need proven records that you've been in business for at least 2 years for most banks? why would a law firm be different?

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cinephile
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby cinephile » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:46 pm

PRgradBYU wrote:
cinephile wrote:I know a guy who has a $200/month studio above a bar in Dayton. You can definitely live on 16k a year in Dayton, Ohio.


Don't encourage OP!


While I actually do know a guy like this, this is no endorsement for Dayton (or Appalachian), just saying 16k takes you plenty far.

But dude, have you ever spent time in Dayton? The downtown area is sad and dead and a little bit scary. Besides, no one wants to live above a bar as a 1L (or ever).

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:52 pm

cinephile wrote:
PRgradBYU wrote:
cinephile wrote:I know a guy who has a $200/month studio above a bar in Dayton. You can definitely live on 16k a year in Dayton, Ohio.


Don't encourage OP!


While I actually do know a guy like this, this is no endorsement for Dayton (or Appalachian), just saying 16k takes you plenty far.

But dude, have you ever spent time in Dayton? The downtown area is sad and dead and a little bit scary. Besides, no one wants to live above a bar as a 1L (or ever).

i'd say it depends on the bar, and noise sensitivity.

positives: easy to meet friends, and women + cheaper rent.
negatives: need to give out lots of cigarettes, vomit on doorstep.

WanderingPondering
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby WanderingPondering » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:51 am

With $16k/year you can absolutely live like a KING in Vietnam. So, take that money and move to Hanoi (or Saigon if you must). Because you are American (presumably) you can find a job teaching English or working in a bank. From here, find a sexy Vietnamese girl who has rich parents. You won't be her family's first choice because you aren't local, but the girl will like you more because you are not tiny, and because you are so very risk tolerant (as evidenced by your desire to pay tons of money for terrible job prospects in Appalachia).

So at this point you make a ton of money by Vietnam standards and have a hot wife. You live in a great apartment in the center of town. I'm not sure what to do from here, but I'm sure you'll figure it out. And its a way better outcome than anything else you have going. Good luck out there comrade!

/thread

NYstate
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby NYstate » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:19 am

What is the cost of attending? How much will you owe at graduation?

NYstate
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby NYstate » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:58 am

WanderingPondering wrote:With $16k/year you can absolutely live like a KING in Vietnam. So, take that money and move to Hanoi (or Saigon if you must). Because you are American (presumably) you can find a job teaching English or working in a bank. From here, find a sexy Vietnamese girl who has rich parents. You won't be her family's first choice because you aren't local, but the girl will like you more because you are not tiny, and because you are so very risk tolerant (as evidenced by your desire to pay tons of money for terrible job prospects in Appalachia).

So at this point you make a ton of money by Vietnam standards and have a hot wife. You live in a great apartment in the center of town. I'm not sure what to do from here, but I'm sure you'll figure it out. And its a way better outcome than anything else you have going. Good luck out there comrade!

/thread


The 16,000 is what the school allows in its budget for COA. That is how much he can borrow for living expenses.

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philosoraptor
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby philosoraptor » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:11 am

View10 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Nobody is going to give you 100K to start a small business when you have huge student loan debt

I disagree. When you start a small business, you incorporate and that business assumes its own identity. A small business loan, therefore, would have little or nothing to do with my own credit and would be based on the business. I know this personally from owning a past business. This is why LLCs exist by the way, so that the owners are protected from liability; hence "Limited liability corporation." There are also payment plans set up now so that a law graduate can pay 15% of the annual salary vs. statis monthly payments. All in all, a law school graduate can manage even the largest of student loans until their career picks up and they should be able to get a small business loan.

Now I'm sure there's some technicalities but for the most part I think you're overlooking a lot of stuff. I don't think it would be as bad as a lot of you think.
LOLed IRL.

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tuffyjohnson
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby tuffyjohnson » Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:34 am

I misunderstood OP. I thought he had big scholarships. Get on your medication for ADD and retake the LSAT. A good score on the LSAT will help prove you can pass the bar.

FamilyLawEsq
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby FamilyLawEsq » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:02 am

OP, I know many UD Law graduates. Some are judges. Some, but very few, have gone on to be partners in Big Law in Ohio and West Virginia. Most remain in the Dayton, Cincinnati and Columbus area. Others have returned to KY, PA, NJ and NY and mostly work in small firms. The facilities are beautiful and Dayton is a larger city which gives many students internship opportunites that Appalachian can not. Dayton has an accelerated program which allows you to finish in 2.5 years and save on living costs. Going to Dayton is no greater a risk than going to any school in the T2-T4 range. If you want Big Law and Big Gov or clerkships, it is not the place to go. If you want to work for a small to mid size firm, return home to practice, or be a DA/PD, it is fine. But as always, you need to kick ass and do well. If your 1L is not successful you should reevalute your decision at that time.

timbs4339
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:10 am

FamilyLawEsq wrote:OP, I know many UD Law graduates. Some are judges. Some, but very few, have gone on to be partners in Big Law in Ohio and West Virginia. Most remain in the Dayton, Cincinnati and Columbus area. Others have returned to KY, PA, NJ and NY and mostly work in small firms. The facilities are beautiful and Dayton is a larger city which gives many students internship opportunites that Appalachian can not. Dayton has an accelerated program which allows you to finish in 2.5 years and save on living costs. Going to Dayton is no greater a risk than going to any school in the T2-T4 range. If you want Big Law and Big Gov or clerkships, it is not the place to go. If you want to work for a small to mid size firm, return home to practice, or be a DA/PD, it is fine. But as always, you need to kick ass and do well. If your 1L is not successful you should reevalute your decision at that time.


No. There is a 50% chance a UD grad won't be a lawyer. The debt is astronomical. A bunch of stories about boomers who went when tuition was $600 a year and everyone got a job is irrelevant to a school that wants to charge people $31,000 to go there (but OH BOY you can save 8K of living costs! My god how much they care about their students!).

FamilyLawEsq
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby FamilyLawEsq » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:15 am

timbs4339 wrote:
FamilyLawEsq wrote:OP, I know many UD Law graduates. Some are judges. Some, but very few, have gone on to be partners in Big Law in Ohio and West Virginia. Most remain in the Dayton, Cincinnati and Columbus area. Others have returned to KY, PA, NJ and NY and mostly work in small firms. The facilities are beautiful and Dayton is a larger city which gives many students internship opportunites that Appalachian can not. Dayton has an accelerated program which allows you to finish in 2.5 years and save on living costs. Going to Dayton is no greater a risk than going to any school in the T2-T4 range. If you want Big Law and Big Gov or clerkships, it is not the place to go. If you want to work for a small to mid size firm, return home to practice, or be a DA/PD, it is fine. But as always, you need to kick ass and do well. If your 1L is not successful you should reevalute your decision at that time.


No. There is a 50% chance a UD grad won't be a lawyer. The debt is astronomical. A bunch of stories about boomers who went when tuition was $600 a year and everyone got a job is irrelevant to a school that wants to charge people $31,000 to go there (but OH BOY you can save 8K of living costs! My god how much they care about their students!).

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cinephile
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby cinephile » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:18 am

FamilyLawEsq wrote:OP, I know many UD Law graduates. Some are judges. Some, but very few, have gone on to be partners in Big Law in Ohio and West Virginia. Most remain in the Dayton, Cincinnati and Columbus area. Others have returned to KY, PA, NJ and NY and mostly work in small firms. The facilities are beautiful and Dayton is a larger city which gives many students internship opportunites that Appalachian can not. Dayton has an accelerated program which allows you to finish in 2.5 years and save on living costs. Going to Dayton is no greater a risk than going to any school in the T2-T4 range. If you want Big Law and Big Gov or clerkships, it is not the place to go. If you want to work for a small to mid size firm, return home to practice, or be a DA/PD, it is fine. But as always, you need to kick ass and do well. If your 1L is not successful you should reevalute your decision at that time.


There is so much wrong with what you've said. First, Cincinnati and Columbus each have their own higher-ranked, better-reputed law schools so no one's going to hire someone from Dayton when they can get a student from the better schools. The name Dayton means absolutely nothing, so it's not going to carry you back home - the only way you'll get the job back home is if your family has held it open for you. Getting a job with the DA/PD is INCREDIBLY COMPETITIVE, as is getting a job with a mid-size firm. Also, Dayton isn't exactly a larger city. It's the empty shell of what used to be a city many decades ago.

FamilyLawEsq
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby FamilyLawEsq » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:34 am

timbs4339 wrote:
FamilyLawEsq wrote:OP, I know many UD Law graduates. Some are judges. Some, but very few, have gone on to be partners in Big Law in Ohio and West Virginia. Most remain in the Dayton, Cincinnati and Columbus area. Others have returned to KY, PA, NJ and NY and mostly work in small firms. The facilities are beautiful and Dayton is a larger city which gives many students internship opportunites that Appalachian can not. Dayton has an accelerated program which allows you to finish in 2.5 years and save on living costs. Going to Dayton is no greater a risk than going to any school in the T2-T4 range. If you want Big Law and Big Gov or clerkships, it is not the place to go. If you want to work for a small to mid size firm, return home to practice, or be a DA/PD, it is fine. But as always, you need to kick ass and do well. If your 1L is not successful you should reevalute your decision at that time.


No. There is a 50% chance a UD grad won't be a lawyer. The debt is astronomical. A bunch of stories about boomers who went when tuition was $600 a year and everyone got a job is irrelevant to a school that wants to charge people $31,000 to go there (but OH BOY you can save 8K of living costs! My god how much they care about their students!).



To this poster...talk to me after you've practiced law and know what you are talking about. I been lurking on this site for 5 years while my daughter went throught the application process in 2008 and graduated in 2012. The misinformation on this site and shitty advice is what made me start posting. MOST of the people on this site are NEVER going to work in big law or clerk. If the OP is from the Ohio area, it is an OK choice to go to Dayton. I come from a family of lawyers. We hire law students. You do not. No one is guaranteed a job from any school, even Yale. Is it a risk to go to Dayton, absolutely. But it is risky to go to any law school in this economy. All law students should assess their choice after 1L, more should drop out than do.

FamilyLawEsq
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby FamilyLawEsq » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:39 am

cinephile wrote:
FamilyLawEsq wrote:OP, I know many UD Law graduates. Some are judges. Some, but very few, have gone on to be partners in Big Law in Ohio and West Virginia. Most remain in the Dayton, Cincinnati and Columbus area. Others have returned to KY, PA, NJ and NY and mostly work in small firms. The facilities are beautiful and Dayton is a larger city which gives many students internship opportunites that Appalachian can not. Dayton has an accelerated program which allows you to finish in 2.5 years and save on living costs. Going to Dayton is no greater a risk than going to any school in the T2-T4 range. If you want Big Law and Big Gov or clerkships, it is not the place to go. If you want to work for a small to mid size firm, return home to practice, or be a DA/PD, it is fine. But as always, you need to kick ass and do well. If your 1L is not successful you should reevalute your decision at that time.


There is so much wrong with what you've said. First, Cincinnati and Columbus each have their own higher-ranked, better-reputed law schools so no one's going to hire someone from Dayton when they can get a student from the better schools. The name Dayton means absolutely nothing, so it's not going to carry you back home - the only way you'll get the job back home is if your family has held it open for you. Getting a job with the DA/PD is INCREDIBLY COMPETITIVE, as is getting a job with a mid-size firm. Also, Dayton isn't exactly a larger city. It's the empty shell of what used to be a city many decades ago.


As compared to Applachian, Dayton is a large city.

timbs4339
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:44 am

FamilyLawEsq wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
FamilyLawEsq wrote:OP, I know many UD Law graduates. Some are judges. Some, but very few, have gone on to be partners in Big Law in Ohio and West Virginia. Most remain in the Dayton, Cincinnati and Columbus area. Others have returned to KY, PA, NJ and NY and mostly work in small firms. The facilities are beautiful and Dayton is a larger city which gives many students internship opportunites that Appalachian can not. Dayton has an accelerated program which allows you to finish in 2.5 years and save on living costs. Going to Dayton is no greater a risk than going to any school in the T2-T4 range. If you want Big Law and Big Gov or clerkships, it is not the place to go. If you want to work for a small to mid size firm, return home to practice, or be a DA/PD, it is fine. But as always, you need to kick ass and do well. If your 1L is not successful you should reevalute your decision at that time.


No. There is a 50% chance a UD grad won't be a lawyer. The debt is astronomical. A bunch of stories about boomers who went when tuition was $600 a year and everyone got a job is irrelevant to a school that wants to charge people $31,000 to go there (but OH BOY you can save 8K of living costs! My god how much they care about their students!).



To this poster...talk to me after you've practiced law and know what you are talking about. I been lurking on this site for 5 years while my daughter went throught the application process in 2008 and graduated in 2012. The misinformation on this site and shitty advice is what made me start posting. MOST of the people on this site are NEVER going to work in big law or clerk. If the OP is from the Ohio area, it is an OK choice to go to Dayton. I come from a family of lawyers. We hire law students. You do not. No one is guaranteed a job from any school, even Yale. Is it a risk to go to Dayton, absolutely. But it is risky to go to any law school in this economy. All law students should assess their choice after 1L, more should drop out than do.


Asshole, I am a lawyer. Graduated from a T6. Anecdotes are anecdotes. Data is data. You've got your head in the clouds if you think 170K for Dayton is a good move over retaking for money.




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