Dayton or Appalachian

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View10
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Dayton or Appalachian

Postby View10 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:27 pm

If you absolutely had to choose between these two schools -no more retakes, no other options- which would you choose and why?

Both are about the same price, Appalachian is of course lower ranked but provides more money each semester to live on. Dayton is the better school but only provides $16k a year to live on which probably isn't enough.

PRgradBYU
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby PRgradBYU » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:44 pm

The correct answer is neither. Dayton may be the less crappy school, but both schools give you less than a 50% chance of getting a job as a lawyer. (Even if you landed a job from one of those schools, you'd be lucky to make $45k/yr.)

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=appalachian
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=dayton

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:44 pm

View10 wrote:If you absolutely had to choose between these two schools -no more retakes, no other options- which would you choose and why?

Both are about the same price, Appalachian is of course lower ranked but provides more money each semester to live on. Dayton is the better school but only provides $16k a year to live on which probably isn't enough.

idk why i'd absolutely have to choose between those 2. law school isn't fun. it's a gateway to a career. if you can spend 70k a year why not major in like baseball card collecting in vegas? these are both awful schools. i'd pursue a different field, at least until i could retake again. you're bound to make much more money as a paralegal, and work better hours there with no debt.

i guess i'd pick appalachian, because the mountains seem nice. i'd approach it as though i would get no job coming out and look for where i could have the most fun. why not go to a southern florida TTTT? you're basically selling your future for 3 years so i'd make it an awesome 3 years. i also probably wouldn't even waste time studying or going to class because you're not going to get a job regardless from these schools so just live like crazy for 3 years a la leaving las vegas.

also, i wouldn't worry about rankings here. both schools have awful reputations. don't factor in what's better because this isn't like comparing harvard to bu. it's comparing sub-what you need for a job vs slightly more sub-what you need for a job. the distinction is meaningless. just go where you'll have the most fun. again, i'd treat this like a country club investment, like as though i was going to die in 3 years and just looking to crazy rather than as a gateway to a legal career.

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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:01 pm

In all seriousness, I wouldn't go to law school. I don't know what you think law is or what your goals are, and I'm not saying this from my high horse but it is an absolute grind and a service based industry. You likely aren't the next Barack Obama, and therefore like 99.9999% of us you would be looking to provide a service to clients. Clients only want to use established lawyers and law firms, meaning you'd need to work for a law firm. These law firms will simply not hire from these places. Only about 50% of new lawyers will get jobs, and only about 10% of lawyers will get good jobs (or at least jobs that with 60 hour weeks enable them to service debt, and start a family in the middle to upper class range). A significant percentage of these slots come from the top law schools. Therefore your odds of having the opportunity to work hard are nearly nilch. It isn't worth it.

I worked many jobs before law school, including taxi driving which didn't pay well at all but was the most fun job I ever had. I am at a "top law school". If somebody said to me I could make the same amount driving a taxi as I could practicing law, I'd definitely drive a taxi. I know a big law partner at a top firm who said he'd much rather drive a cab than practice law if not for the money. In your case, these schools will almost surely long term be less rewarding financially than driving a taxi. It doesn't make sense. Don't do it yourself. Law school is not pleasant, the only saving graces are making friends but you can do this anywhere. If not for the >50% shot at a good outcome, I wouldn't be here. If not for that, I can't think of a more depressing commitment.

rad lulz
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby rad lulz » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:02 pm

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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hephaestus
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby hephaestus » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:09 pm

Neither is a valid choice. No one is forcing you to go.

View10
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby View10 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:10 pm

bananapeanutbutter wrote:
View10 wrote: just go where you'll have the most fun. again, i'd treat this like a country club investment, like as though i was going to die in 3 years and just looking to crazy rather than as a gateway to a legal career.

I have to say, this is probably the best advice I've seen on here. I'm thirty year old so I need to do something. My GPA was a 3.6 but I could not score crap on the LSAT (144). I took the Kaplan class and studied but I just never can concentrate on the test. I had ADD when I was younger, I assume that's the problem and I don't take medicene for it now. I've noticed, however, when I study, drinking coffee seems to help - the caffiene I suspect.

Anyway, I don't care about big law, I just want to eventually have my own practice. I'm fine with making $50K a year. So based on that, the LSAT score and my age, I don't think it matter where I go. Like you said, I'm actually looking more into where I will be happiest the next few years than anything. Dayton gives $16k a year for living expenses and there's more to do there, but Appalachian gives $22K a year but there's much MUCH less to do there.

So I appreciate good honest answers. No going isn't an option and retaking is out. I just want people opinions on which school may be better, which location is best, etc.

rad lulz
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby rad lulz » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:11 pm

Not going is always an option

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hephaestus
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby hephaestus » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:12 pm

How could you be forced to go? Really?
If you're fine making 50k just get an MAcc. You can make that easily.

PRgradBYU
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby PRgradBYU » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:15 pm

rad lulz wrote:Not going is always an option


This. Listen to us, OP. Law school makes NO sense if you can't even break the 160s on the LSAT. I don't understand why you're so bent on going to law school... do you think it'd be FUN? If you want something intellectually stimulating, try another field. Or alternatively you could do much, much, much better on the LSAT.

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:15 pm

View10 wrote:
bananapeanutbutter wrote:
View10 wrote: just go where you'll have the most fun. again, i'd treat this like a country club investment, like as though i was going to die in 3 years and just looking to crazy rather than as a gateway to a legal career.

I have to say, this is probably the best advice I've seen on here. I'm thirty year old so I need to do something. My GPA was a 3.6 but I could not score crap on the LSAT (144). I took the Kaplan class and studied but I just never can concentrate on the test. I had ADD when I was younger, I assume that's the problem and I don't take medicene for it now. I've noticed, however, when I study, drinking coffee seems to help - the caffiene I suspect.

Anyway, I don't care about big law, I just want to eventually have my own practice. I'm fine with making $50K a year. So based on that, the LSAT score and my age, I don't think it matter where I go. Like you said, I'm actually looking more into where I will be happiest the next few years than anything. Dayton gives $16k a year for living expenses and there's more to do there, but Appalachian gives $22K a year but there's much MUCH less to do there.

So I appreciate good honest answers. No going isn't an option and retaking is out. I just want people opinions on which school may be better, which location is best, etc.

It's a little naive to expect 50k a year from these places. These jobs don't really exist. It's kind of a you're screwed or 100k plus field.

Also, and I am a little ADD myself (not diagnosed) but I can self control it by focusing on goals while keeping my creativity so perform well despite difficulty focusing - the LSAT is much more exciting than a lot of what you do in law school that is very dry. If you think logic games are boring, just wait for civ pro. Again, it's naive to think you'll just be fascinated by archaic inapplicable cases from the 19th century. It's a mistake. There are better career opportunities you must have.

Aroldis105
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby Aroldis105 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:18 pm

View10 wrote:
bananapeanutbutter wrote:
View10 wrote: just go where you'll have the most fun. again, i'd treat this like a country club investment, like as though i was going to die in 3 years and just looking to crazy rather than as a gateway to a legal career.

I have to say, this is probably the best advice I've seen on here. I'm thirty year old so I need to do something. My GPA was a 3.6 but I could not score crap on the LSAT (144). I took the Kaplan class and studied but I just never can concentrate on the test. I had ADD when I was younger, I assume that's the problem and I don't take medicene for it now. I've noticed, however, when I study, drinking coffee seems to help - the caffiene I suspect.

Anyway, I don't care about big law, I just want to eventually have my own practice. I'm fine with making $50K a year. So based on that, the LSAT score and my age, I don't think it matter where I go. Like you said, I'm actually looking more into where I will be happiest the next few years than anything. Dayton gives $16k a year for living expenses and there's more to do there, but Appalachian gives $22K a year but there's much MUCH less to do there.

So I appreciate good honest answers. No going isn't an option and retaking is out. I just want people opinions on which school may be better, which location is best, etc.


Appalachian is a man without a country, like Tom Hanks in Terminal, and that movie sucked. Especially Catherine Zeta-Jones' acting. Dayton's economy is shit, I live there so I know this. However, at least the campus sits near/on an actual city. The 16k will get you close to covering most of rent and food. Try to get into litigation or learn spanish or do something that will make you unique. No promises of any sort of opportunity afterwards, but the alumni network is loyal and hopefully things get better in 3 years.

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:28 pm

View10 wrote:
bananapeanutbutter wrote:
View10 wrote: just go where you'll have the most fun. again, i'd treat this like a country club investment, like as though i was going to die in 3 years and just looking to crazy rather than as a gateway to a legal career.

I have to say, this is probably the best advice I've seen on here. I'm thirty year old so I need to do something. My GPA was a 3.6 but I could not score crap on the LSAT (144). I took the Kaplan class and studied but I just never can concentrate on the test. I had ADD when I was younger, I assume that's the problem and I don't take medicene for it now. I've noticed, however, when I study, drinking coffee seems to help - the caffiene I suspect.

Anyway, I don't care about big law, I just want to eventually have my own practice. I'm fine with making $50K a year. So based on that, the LSAT score and my age, I don't think it matter where I go. Like you said, I'm actually looking more into where I will be happiest the next few years than anything. Dayton gives $16k a year for living expenses and there's more to do there, but Appalachian gives $22K a year but there's much MUCH less to do there.

So I appreciate good honest answers. No going isn't an option and retaking is out. I just want people opinions on which school may be better, which location is best, etc.

If this is really your goal (why law) but regardless, even people from Ohio hate Ohio. If less to do means mountain climbing on weekends that's better than your typical Ohio bar.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:44 pm

Are those schools or small-cap whiskey manufacturers?

gfd973
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby gfd973 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:51 pm

reasonable_man wrote:Are those schools or small-cap whiskey manufacturers?


Moonlightin' by moonshinin'

timbs4339
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:15 pm

View10 wrote:
bananapeanutbutter wrote:
View10 wrote: just go where you'll have the most fun. again, i'd treat this like a country club investment, like as though i was going to die in 3 years and just looking to crazy rather than as a gateway to a legal career.

I have to say, this is probably the best advice I've seen on here. I'm thirty year old so I need to do something. My GPA was a 3.6 but I could not score crap on the LSAT (144). I took the Kaplan class and studied but I just never can concentrate on the test. I had ADD when I was younger, I assume that's the problem and I don't take medicene for it now. I've noticed, however, when I study, drinking coffee seems to help - the caffiene I suspect.

Anyway, I don't care about big law, I just want to eventually have my own practice. I'm fine with making $50K a year. So based on that, the LSAT score and my age, I don't think it matter where I go. Like you said, I'm actually looking more into where I will be happiest the next few years than anything. Dayton gives $16k a year for living expenses and there's more to do there, but Appalachian gives $22K a year but there's much MUCH less to do there.

So I appreciate good honest answers. No going isn't an option and retaking is out. I just want people opinions on which school may be better, which location is best, etc.


Dude, this is an investment. You're making a poor investment. It's not enough to just say you'd be happy making 50K a year- there is a 50% chance you will not get ANY LAWYER JOB at all. None. Zilch. Nada. Nobody is going to give you 100K to start a small business when you have huge student loan debt, so starting your own firm is out, and you'll be lucky to break even and put food on the table as a solo even if you could get the money.

If you can't concentrate on the LSAT, you won't concentrate on 1L exams and won't concentrate for the two months of intensive studying you need to pass the bar. If the ADD is really a problem you need to take something for it. Otherwise, working retail would be a better option.

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:23 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
View10 wrote:
bananapeanutbutter wrote:
View10 wrote: just go where you'll have the most fun. again, i'd treat this like a country club investment, like as though i was going to die in 3 years and just looking to crazy rather than as a gateway to a legal career.

I have to say, this is probably the best advice I've seen on here. I'm thirty year old so I need to do something. My GPA was a 3.6 but I could not score crap on the LSAT (144). I took the Kaplan class and studied but I just never can concentrate on the test. I had ADD when I was younger, I assume that's the problem and I don't take medicene for it now. I've noticed, however, when I study, drinking coffee seems to help - the caffiene I suspect.

Anyway, I don't care about big law, I just want to eventually have my own practice. I'm fine with making $50K a year. So based on that, the LSAT score and my age, I don't think it matter where I go. Like you said, I'm actually looking more into where I will be happiest the next few years than anything. Dayton gives $16k a year for living expenses and there's more to do there, but Appalachian gives $22K a year but there's much MUCH less to do there.

So I appreciate good honest answers. No going isn't an option and retaking is out. I just want people opinions on which school may be better, which location is best, etc.


there are options b/w a jd and retail, but yeah law likely takes more focus than any non-piloting position.

Dude, this is an investment. You're making a poor investment. It's not enough to just say you'd be happy making 50K a year- there is a 50% chance you will not get ANY LAWYER JOB at all. None. Zilch. Nada. Nobody is going to give you 100K to start a small business when you have huge student loan debt, so starting your own firm is out, and you'll be lucky to break even and put food on the table as a solo even if you could get the money.

If you can't concentrate on the LSAT, you won't concentrate on 1L exams and won't concentrate for the two months of intensive studying you need to pass the bar. If the ADD is really a problem you need to take something for it. Otherwise, working retail would be a better option.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:14 pm

So wait .... Those are real schools?

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nsideirish
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby nsideirish » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:01 pm

I'd recommend Dayton undergrad to anyone over similarly ranked schools. That place is an absolute blast and is generally well-regarded in the Midwest. Dayton law school though? No.

View10
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby View10 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:55 pm

Ok, alot of you keep mentioning that not going is an option.

I agree.

However, I don't want to look back 20 years from now and think "what if." I think it would be a far better choice to go now and see what happens. I can always drop after the first year if its too much; and sure I would basically throw away quite a bit of money doing so. But if you only have one life to live why not try and make the most of what you can?

So with that in mind, please people, just tell me which school/location/decision you think would be best.

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hephaestus
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby hephaestus » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:58 pm

View10 wrote:Ok, alot of you keep mentioning that not going is an option.

I agree.

However, I don't want to look back 20 years from now and think "what if." I think it would be a far better choice to go now and see what happens. I can always drop after the first year if its too much; and sure I would basically throw away quite a bit of money doing so. But if you only have one life to live why not try and make the most of what you can?

So with that in mind, please people, just tell me which school/location/decision you think would be best.

The problem is that student loan debt is non-dischargable in bankruptcy. That means that, on the high probability neither works out, you will be unable to get a mortgage/significant credit/other loans for the next 30 years. That's why retaking or not going is so imperative.
Are you from OH or have ties to the area?

View10
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby View10 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:05 pm

timbs4339 wrote:Nobody is going to give you 100K to start a small business when you have huge student loan debt

I disagree. When you start a small business, you incorporate and that business assumes its own identity. A small business loan, therefore, would have little or nothing to do with my own credit and would be based on the business. I know this personally from owning a past business. This is why LLCs exist by the way, so that the owners are protected from liability; hence "Limited liability corporation." There are also payment plans set up now so that a law graduate can pay 15% of the annual salary vs. statis monthly payments. All in all, a law school graduate can manage even the largest of student loans until their career picks up and they should be able to get a small business loan.

Now I'm sure there's some technicalities but for the most part I think you're overlooking a lot of stuff. I don't think it would be as bad as a lot of you think.

View10
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby View10 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:07 pm

ImNoScar wrote:The problem is that student loan debt is non-dischargable in bankruptcy. That means that, on the high probability neither works out, you will be unable to get a mortgage/significant credit/other loans for the next 30 years. That's why retaking or not going is so imperative.
Are you from OH or have ties to the area?


First, there are repayment plans so that the student loans could be managable. And yes, I have family that is getting older in KY so staying close to home is a must.

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hephaestus
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby hephaestus » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:21 pm

View10 wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:The problem is that student loan debt is non-dischargable in bankruptcy. That means that, on the high probability neither works out, you will be unable to get a mortgage/significant credit/other loans for the next 30 years. That's why retaking or not going is so imperative.
Are you from OH or have ties to the area?


First, there are repayment plans so that the student loans could be managable. And yes, I have family that is getting older in KY so staying close to home is a must.

Yes there is IBR. That's why I used the 30 year number. But that's a fallback option that should be avoided. I was more making the point that you'll have trouble getting loans for other things with the huge loan debt/not high income.
Since you aren't from OH, Appalachian I guess if you really won't retake or not go. But it's a very distant 3rd.

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tuffyjohnson
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Re: Dayton or Appalachian

Postby tuffyjohnson » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:32 pm

If you've got a full ride there are much worse things you could do with your life. So I'll go ahead and say it: Dayton. Keep in mind that 50 percent of this board are Gen Y's who can't handle a lick of risk and expect their entire life to be guaranteed in full with their parents packing them a PBandJ every step of the way. Guess what folks, law school has always been a gamble. More so now, but that's how it is.

I know a solo lawyer who recently went to Dayton and he said the education was excellent. He writes better than you so start working on your writing. It's also got some new buildings on the campus and the town ain't so bad for families if that's your thing.
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