Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Penn (51k)
26
33%
Duke (90k)
42
54%
UT (45k and in-state)
10
13%
 
Total votes: 78

manutd19
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:33 am

Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby manutd19 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:41 pm

Deposit deadlines are fast approaching and I am quite hesitant about which decision is the best for me. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Both Duke and Texas are practically the same price, which is why right now I am leaning towards going to Duke. I am from Texas and I enjoy living here, so ideally I would like to practice law in the South, preferably in Texas. Duke is clearly the best law school in the South, but I worry about my prospects of returning to Texas if I don't graduate towards the top at Duke, since I'm under the assumption that only the national firms with offices in Texas are be willing to recruit outside of Texas (e.g. Baker Botts, where I presently work).

Penn recently came in with a $51,000 offer. It's an amazing school and I really enjoyed Philadelphia when I visited, just don't know if Penn is really $40,000 better than Duke, especially considering I would like to work in the South upon graduation.

This bit of info probably doesn't help, but I have pretty ambiguous career aspirations. I just don't want to commit one way, knowing that many law school students end up changing their minds during school. I am a government major and would really enjoy working in government and in public policy, but I also want the BigLaw door open so I can pay off my excessive law school debt. I haven't had the greatest experience working at a large firm (I work crazy hours and I'm just a clerk), but the salary would definitely make life easier and I might enjoy it from the lawyer's perspective.

Done rambling!

User avatar
moonman157
Posts: 1039
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:26 pm

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby moonman157 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:43 pm

Have you tried negotiating your Texas offer with your Duke offer?

User avatar
TripTrip
Posts: 2740
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:52 am

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby TripTrip » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:47 pm

I don't think Penn is worth $40k more than Duke, but I definitely think Duke is better than UT pricing equal.

Even insular markets are accepting of applications from most of the T14 when you're from the area.

manutd19
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:33 am

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby manutd19 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:02 am

moonman157 wrote:Have you tried negotiating your Texas offer with your Duke offer?


I have and they didn't budge...was pretty disappointed to say the least. Based on my experience, it seems that UT is only willing to match offers from peer schools that eclipse their own. That may not apply to everyone, but I think they were unwilling to increase their offer since Duke basically costs the exact same.

User avatar
Nelson
Posts: 2061
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:43 am

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby Nelson » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:04 am

What is the COA for TX with that scholarship and instate?

manutd19
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:33 am

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby manutd19 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:09 am

Nelson wrote:What is the COA for TX with that scholarship and instate?


COA for UT is around $18,000/year in tuition (that's based on the estimated tuition rate for the upcoming year on the UT website). COA at Duke is around $21,000/year, while COA at Penn would be around $32,000.

User avatar
Nelson
Posts: 2061
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:43 am

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby Nelson » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:22 am

manutd19 wrote:
Nelson wrote:What is the COA for TX with that scholarship and instate?


COA for UT is around $18,000/year in tuition (that's based on the estimated tuition rate for the upcoming year on the UT website). COA at Duke is around $21,000/year, while COA at Penn would be around $32,000.

Is that just tuition? Or with cost of living as well?

I'm usually a big fan of staying in the market where you want to work so I'd normally say UT, but Duke might be worth it here for the better overall prospects if the cost difference is really that small. Penn is only worth that premium if you're willing to work in NYC.
Last edited by Nelson on Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Elston Gunn
Posts: 3444
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:09 pm

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby Elston Gunn » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:22 am

Definitely Duke.

Big Dog
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:34 pm

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby Big Dog » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:27 am

Personally, I think Penn is worth the $40k over Duke....

But if you like/want to live in Texas, UT is the no-brainer. (As you know, things work a little differently in The Republic....)

User avatar
lsacqueen
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:03 am

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby lsacqueen » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:00 am

Seeing as how your career aspirations are ambiguous, I would suggest going to either Penn or Duke, which have a stronger national reputation than UT, which is a regional school at best. Then again, you want to work and return to Texas.. Given your current scholarship offers, I don't think Penn is worth forty grand more than Duke, although the career opportunities are slightly better. Have you tried negotiating with Penn with your Duke offer?

manutd19
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:33 am

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby manutd19 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:32 am

lsacqueen wrote:Seeing as how your career aspirations are ambiguous, I would suggest going to either Penn or Duke, which have a stronger national reputation than UT, which is a regional school at best. Then again, you want to work and return to Texas.. Given your current scholarship offers, I don't think Penn is worth forty grand more than Duke, although the career opportunities are slightly better. Have you tried negotiating with Penn with your Duke offer?


I have notified Penn of my Duke offer and I believe that's why they offered me my $51,000 scholarship. Prior to that email I had heard nothing from Penn in regards to scholarships, so Penn's scholarship is final.

Penn is such a prestigious school and I'm sure I would really enjoy going there, it's just I feel like Penn is a feeder school for NYC firms. I only know of one Penn grad that works at my firm, while there are quite a few Duke grads and of course tons of UT grads. Call me naive, but I don't know what Penn offers that a place like Duke doesn't that makes them worth $40,000+ more.

Big Dog
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:34 pm

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby Big Dog » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:35 am

Call me naive, but I don't know what Penn offers that a place like Duke doesn't that makes them worth $40,000+ more.


Not for your goals, no it does not.

User avatar
dsn32
Posts: 435
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 3:40 pm

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby dsn32 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:50 am

Bookmarked. Extremely relevant to my interests.

BigZuck
Posts: 10881
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:51 am

Elston Gunn wrote:Definitely Duke.


Duke versus UT at the same price is a no brainer. And lol @ UT not offering you more, that's insane.

User avatar
Doorkeeper
Posts: 4872
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:25 pm

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby Doorkeeper » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:00 pm

Duke.

Penn isn't worth anything extra if you want to work in the South. Their main advantage over Duke is NYC biglaw placement.

SportsFan
Posts: 722
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:26 pm

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby SportsFan » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:19 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:Duke.

Penn isn't worth anything extra if you want to work in the South. Their main advantage over Duke is NYC biglaw placement.

Can't speak specifics since I'm not from Texas and haven't researched it a lot, but I've heard Texas firms will go deep into Penn's class (below median) for people from Texas, and you can get 1L SA's there. Maybe its the same at Duke, not sure. But Texas firms do seem to love Penn kids from Texas. Not sure whether this makes Penn $40k better than Duke though.

BigZuck
Posts: 10881
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:22 pm

SportsFan wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:Duke.

Penn isn't worth anything extra if you want to work in the South. Their main advantage over Duke is NYC biglaw placement.

Can't speak specifics since I'm not from Texas and haven't researched it a lot, but I've heard Texas firms will go deep into Penn's class (below median) for people from Texas, and you can get 1L SA's there. Maybe its the same at Duke, not sure. But Texas firms do seem to love Penn kids from Texas. Not sure whether this makes Penn $40k better than Duke though.


I have heard the exact same thing about Duke and UVA.

manutd19
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:33 am

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby manutd19 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:09 pm

BigZuck wrote:
SportsFan wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:Duke.

Penn isn't worth anything extra if you want to work in the South. Their main advantage over Duke is NYC biglaw placement.

Can't speak specifics since I'm not from Texas and haven't researched it a lot, but I've heard Texas firms will go deep into Penn's class (below median) for people from Texas, and you can get 1L SA's there. Maybe its the same at Duke, not sure. But Texas firms do seem to love Penn kids from Texas. Not sure whether this makes Penn $40k better than Duke though.


I have heard the exact same thing about Duke and UVA.


Well this is certainly great news. Does anyone know how well any of these three schools place for government/policy jobs after law school? Or is it dumb to even try and enter that field with a JD? Heard graduate school would be better suited for that. Just trying to keep my options open...

GMGP
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:17 pm

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby GMGP » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:08 pm

The big three Texas firms recruit here heavily and plan on doing so more (according to my career counselor). If you have a local connection (graduated from UT, Rice, Baylor, ect.) you should have no problem. Also, Texas firms recruit very early 1L year, so you could end up with a full-time job (unless you really screw up over the summer) by December. Two of my close friends ended up with 1L Texas biglaw offers before grades even 1st semester grades came out.

Definitely Duke for Texas biglaw.

mr.hands
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:23 pm

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby mr.hands » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:26 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:Duke.

Penn isn't worth anything extra if you want to work in the South. Their main advantage over Duke is NYC biglaw placement.



Agreed. Take the 90k. This is a no-brainer

jym_dawg
Posts: 294
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:09 pm

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby jym_dawg » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:57 pm

manutd19 wrote:
Nelson wrote:What is the COA for TX with that scholarship and instate?


COA for UT is around $18,000/year in tuition (that's based on the estimated tuition rate for the upcoming year on the UT website). COA at Duke is around $21,000/year, while COA at Penn would be around $32,000.


These numbers don't make sense to me. For example, Duke costs 75k a year. It sounds like you got a 30k/year scholarship. That leaves 45k/yr, right? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious here.

What would be the total COA for each of the schools?

BigZuck
Posts: 10881
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:03 pm

jym_dawg wrote:
manutd19 wrote:
Nelson wrote:What is the COA for TX with that scholarship and instate?


COA for UT is around $18,000/year in tuition (that's based on the estimated tuition rate for the upcoming year on the UT website). COA at Duke is around $21,000/year, while COA at Penn would be around $32,000.


These numbers don't make sense to me. For example, Duke costs 75k a year. It sounds like you got a 30k/year scholarship. That leaves 45k/yr, right? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious here.

What would be the total COA for each of the schools?


OP was just listing tuition. COL in Austin and Durham should be basically a wash so we are looking at about a 9K total difference between UT and Duke. That is the very definition of a no brainer.

User avatar
PDaddy
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:40 am

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby PDaddy » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:07 pm

moonman157 wrote:Have you tried negotiating your Texas offer with your Duke offer?


Have you tried leveraging Duke against Penn? That's the better question; they are peer schools. Duke not only penetrates most of the big markets in the south, you can work in DC or NY. UT will pretty much keep you in Texas. Also remember that Duke's lay prestige belies its law ranking, as it exceeds that of UVA, Michigan and even NYU.

With that having been said, have fun at Duke.
Last edited by PDaddy on Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
Posts: 10881
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:10 pm

PDaddy wrote:
moonman157 wrote:Have you tried negotiating your Texas offer with your Duke offer?


Have you tried leveraging Duke against Penn? That's the better question; they are peer schools.

Other than that, have fun at Duke.


Doubt Penn sees it that way. Michigan doesn't. And Penn>Michigan.

Also in b4 UT only offers 3K more a year. Still would be a no brainer at that difference IMO.

User avatar
PDaddy
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:40 am

Re: Penn (51k) vs. Duke (90k) vs. UT (45k & in-state)

Postby PDaddy » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:17 pm

BigZuck wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
moonman157 wrote:Have you tried negotiating your Texas offer with your Duke offer?


Have you tried leveraging Duke against Penn? That's the better question; they are peer schools.

Other than that, have fun at Duke.


Doubt Penn sees it that way. Michigan doesn't. And Penn>Michigan.

Also in b4 UT only offers 3K more a year. Still would be a no brainer at that difference IMO.


A school's willingness to budge on money does not occur in a vacuum. It does vary with each student and with each cycle. Schools also base that willingness on the competitor's "brand".

Certainly Penn has budged for Duke admits before (as well as for admits from a few other lower-ranked schools). We're not talking U-Minnesota here, it's friggin' Duke.

Duke's lay prestige/brand is almost on par with that of Penn, and law schools are selling their brands (i. e. the value(s) of their degrees) as much as they are anything else. Therefore, it is conceivable that many students would turn down Penn for Duke. That means Penn is willing to fight Duke for certain students.

I think it depends a lot on what intangibles a student brings and how close they were to getting more money to begin with. Also, schools make some attempt to gage an applicants likelihood of accepting an offer if admission, so "ties" can play a role on how much money is initially offered. Penn is a school that OP should definitely try to negotiate with, because they are flexible for the right student.

HYS are peers

CCNMVPNBD are peers

CGTV-UCLA-USC are peers

GWU-WUSTL-ND-Emory-BC/BU are peers (U-Minn has almost zero lay prestige)

OP...call/write Penn and make your case! What can they do besides say "no"?




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 20171lhopeful, Google Adsense [Bot], hwwong, obx and 2 guests