California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

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twinkletoes16
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby twinkletoes16 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:22 pm

untar614 wrote:
Lavitz wrote:
untar614 wrote:
untar614 wrote:How does UCLA, come out to almost 40k less than NW? the scholarship difference is only 15k, and LA has a way higher CoL.


I'm still wondering what I'm missing here.

Resident tuition at UCLA is like 10K a year less. Guessing that's a large part of the reason.

UCLA IS tuition is ~6k/year less, and OOS tuition is ~1k more, and OP said she'd pay OOS first year (is it really that easy to get IS tuition in Cali?). That would come out to about 11k, but there's still the appreciably higher rent cost in LA pushing the balance in the other direction. I'm curious as to the actual numbers here.



Literally all I did was take the numbers on their website and run them through the GULC calculator. NU has a really high CoL for some reason compared to UCLA. UCLA's tuition is 6k a year cheaper and I have 5k/year more from them.

ETA I am the first to admit I suck at math, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. All the numbers are readily available and I assumed 3.5% tuition/CoL hike per year.

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Rahviveh
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby Rahviveh » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:28 pm

If you really prefer CA "small law" to everything else than I'd pick UCLA. But does that mean you'd rather work in a shitlaw insurance defense mill in Riverside over big law in NY? And according to TLS mid law jobs are not easy to get in major markets.

Otherwise I'd pick NW but bid SF and save all the SoCal SA spots for me :)

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untar614
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby untar614 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:33 pm

twinkletoes16 wrote:

Literally all I did was take the numbers on their website and run them through the GULC calculator. NU has a really high CoL for some reason compared to UCLA. UCLA's tuition is 6k a year cheaper and I have 5k/year more from them.

ETA I am the first to admit I suck at math, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. All the numbers are readily available and I assumed 3.5% tuition/CoL hike per year.


Yeah, I think NW overestimates their CoL (it's almost 1600/month for room and board! lol, that sounds pretty extravagant), and UCLA's seems to assume you'll be living in an appt with more people than bedrooms. I'd guess the actual cost difference would be 25k or less, really an amount that's not too significant in the grand scheme. I think it really it comes down to whether you more value your odds at being in Cali or your odds at a high-paying job. Having both is possible at either, but it comes down to playing the odds.

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twinkletoes16
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby twinkletoes16 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:38 pm

untar614 wrote:
twinkletoes16 wrote:

Literally all I did was take the numbers on their website and run them through the GULC calculator. NU has a really high CoL for some reason compared to UCLA. UCLA's tuition is 6k a year cheaper and I have 5k/year more from them.

ETA I am the first to admit I suck at math, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. All the numbers are readily available and I assumed 3.5% tuition/CoL hike per year.


Yeah, I think NW overestimates their CoL (it's almost 1600/month for room and board! lol, that sounds pretty extravagant), and UCLA's seems to assume you'll be living in an appt with more people than bedrooms. I'd guess the actual cost difference would be 25k or less, really an amount that's not too significant in the grand scheme. I think it really it comes down to whether you more value your odds at being in Cali or your odds at a high-paying job. Having both is possible at either, but it comes down to playing the odds.



Yeah, I have a lot of thinking to do because I think it's really going to come down between NU and UCLA. Boalt's rejecting matching scholarships with #s well above mine. :shock:

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untar614
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby untar614 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:44 pm

twinkletoes16 wrote:
Yeah, I have a lot of thinking to do because I think it's really going to come down between NU and UCLA. Boalt's rejecting matching scholarships with #s well above mine. :shock:


Damn, too bad, that would've been an easy choice then. They're being pretty stingy there; hopefully it bites them in the ass in next year's rankings. Good luck in your pondering. U still gonna be at NW's ASW?

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Lavitz
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby Lavitz » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:08 pm

untar614 wrote:UCLA IS tuition is ~6k/year less, and OOS tuition is ~1k more, and OP said she'd pay OOS first year (is it really that easy to get IS tuition in Cali?). That would come out to about 11k

You're right. I was going by LST's listing for 2011-12, but it looks like the difference was only 6K for 2012-13.

untar614 wrote:Yeah, I think NW overestimates their CoL (it's almost 1600/month for room and board! lol, that sounds pretty extravagant).

Now that you mention it, I definitely read this somewhere--I just can't find it right now. If the actual difference in CoA is only about 25K, then this just became a much closer race.

Would be interested in hearing your impressions of NU this weekend, twinkle.

ket310
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby ket310 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:27 pm

For you, it's either UCLA or USC (if they match). If you hate cold weather, NU is clearly not a good choice. It gets freaking cold in Chicago during winter, so as Ann Arbor, NYC, and Ithaca. Working in Chicago or New York won't be good either because it would be cold in winter and you'll be away from family.

Yes, NU, Michigan, and NYU are T14 national school and make you able to get job back at CA, but you also have to think about three years of law school life and your internship time. But the money NU offered you is pretty awesome and you should consider it very seriously. It's worth the cold for 27 months in my opinion.

If this was me, I'm going to NYU if I get in. I'm from foreign country and lived in NY and DC. I love east coast, never been to west coast. But like I said for you, it would be UCLA or NU (if you don't mind cold for 27 months).

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:28 am

Revolver066 wrote: But I think NW at 134 is a pretty decent deal too, and I'd definitely pay 37kish more for the safety net at NW


This

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Dr. Dre
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby Dr. Dre » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:54 am

twinkletoes16 wrote:
Yeah...what. I lived and managed to scrape by in two of the highest COL areas in CA.



I don't know about you, but for me, I would not like to live life "just scraping by..."


go to northwestern

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twinkletoes16
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby twinkletoes16 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:00 am

Dr. Dre wrote:
twinkletoes16 wrote:
Yeah...what. I lived and managed to scrape by in two of the highest COL areas in CA.



I don't know about you, but for me, I would not like to live life "just scraping by..."


go to northwestern



I was "scraping by" while working as a barista. Slightly different, though an option from UCLA if I completely bomb.

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twinkletoes16
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby twinkletoes16 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:04 am

Lavitz wrote:
Would be interested in hearing your impressions of NU this weekend, twinkle.



Will do. I'm really, really torn and also confused at this point. I do know of a UCLA 3L who is jobless right now, and while anecdotal, that's scary.

I feel like if I think I could like NU/Chi, I should go ahead and deposit at the deadline, then tentatively agree to B and continue to beg for $ as long as I can. I would honestly be fine living in SoCal for the rest of my life though, so UCLA remains tempting.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:13 am

If you would rather be underemployed (or unemployed) in CA than employed in a desirable position elsewhere, UCLA. That's the worst case scenario approach to deciding between NW and UCLA for you. Once you know the answer to that question, you will know which school to choose.

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twinkletoes16
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby twinkletoes16 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:15 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:If you would rather be underemployed (or unemployed) in CA than employed in a desirable position elsewhere, UCLA. That's the worst case scenario approach to deciding between NW and UCLA for you. Once you know the answer to that question, you will know which school to choose.



Are people at NU at/below median that much better off than median/below at UCLA? It still seems like there's some bad outcomes at NU. Maybe not to the extent that UCLA has though?

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untar614
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby untar614 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:59 am

twinkletoes16 wrote:Are people at NU at/below median that much better off than median/below at UCLA? It still seems like there's some bad outcomes at NU. Maybe not to the extent that UCLA has though?


UCLA's Large Firm + Fed Clerkship = 39% (last year was only 27.9% !!!!! ; year before that it was 36.3% biglaw and 7.8% some kind of clerkship, but I don't know the breakdown)
NW's Large frim + Fed Clerkship = 55.6% (and was 61.3% last year; the year before that, they had 52.4% in biglaw and 10.4% in some kind of judicial clerkship, though I don't know what the breakdown there is)

So this means that someone at NW at median has a good shot at a favorable outcome, while someone at median at UCLA has a much worse shot at desired outcome - would be against the odds. Some self selection may skew this, but these numbers don't favor UCLA unless you could definitely be in the top quarter of the class.

That's why I voted NW (along with the fact I think you're overestimating the differences in CoA), unless Berk comes through with $$ or Harvard calls. If you do go to NW, I'd say given your plans/goals, find a 9-month lease, and gun hard for LA firms. If you can't get something good for 1L summer, maybe you could find family in LA that would let you crash there for the summer, and maybe just find a volunteer legal position in LA. NW places just over 10% in California last year, which tells me it's doable, and probably just not a lot of ppl there are shooting for California (probably mostly Chicago, NYC, or wherever they happened to be from), which may help you. Plus I keep hearing about how messed up the California legal market is. I have no idea if that is true, but if it is the case, I'd want some other options to be safe. And I feel ya on the cold - I hate it and was ready to go to Texas before NW's scholarship offer came. But everyone from Chicago seems to love it, and I just won't be outside a lot during the winter. As someone who has moved around a lot, I've learned that the location itself isn't nearly as important as the people you meet there.

So that's my rationale. Like I said though, it's all about your priorities.
Last edited by untar614 on Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:51 am

Priorities should be what school will give you the best opportunity at the job you want while minimizing debt.

Answer: Northwestern. It's not even a contest. NU will get you back to anywhere in Cali and anywhere else in the country. That's worth the small premium over UCLA.

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:31 pm

Only one year of data, but still relevant

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=204578

Image

lawschoolsoldier
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby lawschoolsoldier » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:38 pm

keep calling UCLA and USC for more money. You have to be able to get it.

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Rev. Cherrycoke
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby Rev. Cherrycoke » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:15 pm

It's absolutely vital that you find out for sure if you're California or bust. If that's the case and any job in CA is preferable to working a better job in NYC or Chicago, then UCLA.

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:42 pm

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=ucla

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=northwestern

NU has a larger big firm score and smaller underemployment score. There is no way I would go to UCLA for a 40k discount.

BigZuck
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby BigZuck » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:48 pm

J-e-L-L-o wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=ucla

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=northwestern

NU has a larger big firm score and smaller underemployment score. There is no way I would go to UCLA for a 40k discount.


I personally wouldn't either. But if I only wanted to live in CA because I absolutely hated the weather in Chicago and wanted to be around family, and I was particularly debt averse and wanted to take an offer that wouldn't necessitate big law, and I only cared about being some kind of lawyer and didn't care if my job was in big law then I would choose UCLA.

Everyone saying NU is basing that on what they would do or even what the average person would do. Based on what Twinkle laid out I think UCLA makes the most sense.

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bk1
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:12 pm

twinkletoes16 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:If you would rather be underemployed (or unemployed) in CA than employed in a desirable position elsewhere, UCLA. That's the worst case scenario approach to deciding between NW and UCLA for you. Once you know the answer to that question, you will know which school to choose.



Are people at NU at/below median that much better off than median/below at UCLA? It still seems like there's some bad outcomes at NU. Maybe not to the extent that UCLA has though?

In general, yes. If you only care about working in CA, then not that much. And yes, UCLA does have more bad outcomes though not drastically so.

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:17 pm

People are saying pick NU because of the best job prospects for the dollar.

That's what law school admissions is about. If you are picking a school for the weather report, you are doing it wrong. Should have applied to Duke since they are south of the Mason Dixon.

OP listed big law as the most important factor, if they miss the boat then midlaw. And a stronger preference for NorCal. But for a lil bit more money you can go to a better school that can you get those jobs easier and with worse grades. If you miss top 1/3 at UCLA you will have to scramble to find jobs. And it will be harder to get NorCal if you want it from UCLA.

The numbers speak for themselves. UCLA is a good school, but it's not the best option in this scenario. Especially considering the scholarship offers.

Yes it gets cold in Chicago. But settling for a lower paying outcome so you can get a tan in Malibu and wear short shorts while shopping on Melrose is dumb. You can do that after you graduate and get the job you truly want.


I live in SoCal and I vote NU. Just my economic analysis to the situation.

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twinkletoes16
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby twinkletoes16 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:24 pm

J-e-L-L-o wrote:People are saying pick NU because of the best job prospects for the dollar.

That's what law school admissions is about. If you are picking a school for the weather report, you are doing it wrong. Should have applied to Duke since they are south of the Mason Dixon.

OP listed big law as the most important factor, if they miss the boat then midlaw. And a stronger preference for NorCal. But for a lil bit more money you can go to a better school that can you get those jobs easier and with worse grades. If you miss top 1/3 at UCLA you will have to scramble to find jobs. And it will be harder to get NorCal if you want it from UCLA.

The numbers speak for themselves. UCLA is a good school, but it's not the best option in this scenario. Especially considering the scholarship offers.

Yes it gets cold in Chicago. But settling for a lower paying outcome so you can get a tan in Malibu and wear short shorts while shopping on Melrose is dumb. You can do that after you graduate and get the job you truly want.


I live in SoCal and I vote NU. Just my economic analysis to the situation.



Duke and Yale were the the only T-14 I didn't apply to. :lol:


I'll be visiting both soon, but definitely helps to have voices of reason on here. Thank you again, TLS!

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twinkletoes16
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby twinkletoes16 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:45 pm

It is insane to consider Berkeley at sticker, correct?


I just hate that the one school that aligns best with my goals is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

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Ruxin1
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Re: California or Bust and Slightly Less Debt-Averse...

Postby Ruxin1 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:47 pm

twinkletoes16 wrote:It is insane to consider Berkeley at sticker, correct?


I just hate that the one school that aligns best with my goals is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.


It is 293,000 $




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