Chicago (45k) vs NYU (sticker) vs NU (150k) Forum

[TripTrip]

I don't think most of the people who voted in the poll even read my original post, which specifies my PI interest.

That's because free school is better than LRAP, and you don't need NYU to go PI. If you know what you want to do, you shouldn't need significant school support to find a PI gig.

I don't agree with this at all. PI gigs are tricky. Unlike biglaw, where you just show up at OCI, PI gigs require a lot more research and inside knowledge on the process.

That depends on the type of PI OP is interested in.

I'm going to bet that many organizations doing legal work for the underprivileged, for example, are fairly open to NU grads who are willing to work for $50k and that if you make any sort of effort to reach out, you'll be able to find them.

[lsacqueen]

I don't think most of the people who voted in the poll even read my original post, which specifies my PI interest.

That's because free school is better than LRAP, and you don't need NYU to go PI. If you know what you want to do, you shouldn't need significant school support to find a PI gig.

A friend of mine encouraged me to take longer-term perspective on choosing a law school, i.e. focusing more on the school that will help me achieve my goals longer term rather than the price tag.

From what I've read, your long-term goals align with graduating without $200k debt. Price is definitely relevant.

IMO anyone voting for anything other than NU is trying to get you to free up that scholarship money so they can get it.

Fair enough, free school trumps LRAP. At the same time, while I know I'm interested in PI/government work, I would realistically need guidance and school support to ensure I get a gig.

[TripTrip]

PI/government work

What does that even mean?

[IAFG]

I'm going to bet that many organizations doing legal work for the underprivileged, for example, are fairly open to NU grads who are willing to work for $50k and that if you make any sort of effort to reach out, you'll be able to find them.

Kay, please find these "many organizations" paying omg-are-you-kidding $50k and forward them to me, I have several unemployed NU PI seekers who will snap them right up.

[lsacqueen]

PI/government work

What does that even mean?

Well I'm open to ideas and all opportunities, but off the top of my head this includes international human rights NGO work, State Dept, White House Counsel, Senate Judiciary Committee, DOJ.

[TripTrip]

I'm going to bet that many organizations doing legal work for the underprivileged, for example, are fairly open to NU grads who are willing to work for $50k and that if you make any sort of effort to reach out, you'll be able to find them.

Kay, please find these "many organizations" paying omg-are-you-kidding $50k and forward them to me, I have several unemployed NU PI seekers who will snap them right up.

I concede my point.

PI/government work

What does that even mean?

Well I'm open to ideas and all opportunities, but off the top of my head this includes international human rights NGO work, State Dept, White House Counsel, Senate Judiciary Committee, DOJ.

Yer going to need experience to get to these positions anyway. None of those are anything you'd land because of NYU's PI support.

[lsacqueen]

I'm going to bet that many organizations doing legal work for the underprivileged, for example, are fairly open to NU grads who are willing to work for $50k and that if you make any sort of effort to reach out, you'll be able to find them.

Kay, please find these "many organizations" paying omg-are-you-kidding $50k and forward them to me, I have several unemployed NU PI seekers who will snap them right up.

I concede my point.

PI/government work

What does that even mean?

Well I'm open to ideas and all opportunities, but off the top of my head this includes international human rights NGO work, State Dept, White House Counsel, Senate Judiciary Committee, DOJ.

Yer going to need experience to get to these positions anyway. None of those are anything you'd land because of NYU's PI support.

What kind of experience?

[IAFG]

What kind of experience?

What you've named is pretty much the cream of the PI crop, so experience as a YLS 1L would reeeeally help.

[lsacqueen]

What kind of experience?

What you've named is pretty much the cream of the PI crop, so experience as a YLS 1L would reeeeally help.

LOLZ

Touche. But I'll keep on keeping on with my TTT plebeian status and hope for the best.

[Redamon1]

In your shoes I think I'd lobby NYU like crazy to make up for the price gap, but happily attend NU if that doesn't work. The peace of mind and flexibility that comes with 150k scholarship will blow your mind once you interact with classmates who (rightfully) have as their top job concern paying off loans. As others have said, lack of carrer advice at NU on PI would be a drawback, but IMO not insurmontable, and certainly not worth 150k.

[twenty]

Would much rather be an NU grad with 0k-10k of debt and a 33% shot at a PI job than a NYU grad with 220k debt and 75% chance of a PI job.

(Pulling numbers out of my rear, but I think the point remains.)

[09042014]

Would much rather be an NU grad with 0k-10k of debt and a 33% shot at a PI job than a NYU grad with 220k debt and 75% chance of a PI job.

(Pulling numbers out of my rear, but I think the point remains.)

The point definitely doesn't remain since you are pulling out wildly unrealistic numbers.

First of all. NU +150, is still probably 80-90K of debt. NYU is probably 260K+.

But there is no way NYU gives you a 40% edge.

And also, you have to factor in LRAP.

[lsacqueen]

Would much rather be an NU grad with 0k-10k of debt and a 33% shot at a PI job than a NYU grad with 220k debt and 75% chance of a PI job.

(Pulling numbers out of my rear, but I think the point remains.)

The point definitely doesn't remain since you are pulling out wildly unrealistic numbers.

First of all. NU +150, is still probably 80-90K of debt. NYU is probably 260K+.

But there is no way NYU gives you a 40% edge.

And also, you have to factor in LRAP.

These numbers are much more realistic. Going to NU doesn't mean being debt-free, as I still have to cover my living expenses. I am still worried about the lack of institutional support at NU for PI students, and also worried there are fewer students in general who are interested in PI-related things, which would make my law school experience worse probably and result in a smaller network of students searching for PI jobs. On the other hand, NYC seems to present more career options for PI and BigLaw, and being somewhat a part of the NYC and NYU network might help a lot in the long run.

[lsacqueen]

In your shoes I think I'd lobby NYU like crazy to make up for the price gap, but happily attend NU if that doesn't work. The peace of mind and flexibility that comes with 150k scholarship will blow your mind once you interact with classmates who (rightfully) have as their top job concern paying off loans. As others have said, lack of carrer advice at NU on PI would be a drawback, but IMO not insurmontable, and certainly not worth 150k.

I agree with you on lobbying NYU like crazy! How much is NYU worth more than NU in your opinion?

[BigZuck]

Saw thread title and assumed this was a joke thread, opened thread and was alarmed there was an actual debate.

I would do NU and not even think twice about it. NYU at sticker is crazy expensive.

[Elston Gunn]

I'm much less pessimistic than many about T14 law schools, but I honestly would not go to a non-HYS at all if I weren't interested in either BigLaw or directs services/less glamorous PI. If FedGov or high level non-profit work is all you're interested in, you better have an incredible background to back it up or go to HYS, and even then you're fighting an uphill battle. I think you need to think about what your backup plan would be, and whether you'd be happy with it. If it's BigLaw, then NU no question. If you'd rather work in legal aid, then NYU at least is a genuine option. If you'd rather not be a lawyer than do either, then don't go to law school.

[dixiecupdrinking]

I'm much less pessimistic than many about T14 law schools, but I honestly would not go to a non-HYS at all if I weren't interested in either BigLaw or directs services/less glamorous PI. If FedGov or high level non-profit work is all you're interested in, you better have an incredible background to back it up or go to HYS, and even then you're fighting an uphill battle. I think you need to think about what your backup plan would be, and whether you'd be happy with it. If it's BigLaw, then NU no question. If you'd rather work in legal aid, then NYU at least is a genuine option. If you'd rather not be a lawyer than do either, then don't go to law school.

Honestly, even legal aid and direct services are really competitive right now. Like, practically federal clerkship-competitive, from what I've seen. For NYU to be your choice here, your second-choice priority would have to be "unemployed at graduation and on a school-funded fellowship" over biglaw. (I am not nearly as bearish on these school-funded jobs as some people, but they're still not a great place to be.)

[Samara]

Yeah, need moar info. Why do you want a clerkship? Where do you want to work? What are your backups if you don't get into the very competitive positions you want? Is biglaw something you could stomach for a few years?

I like how a bunch of posters immediately say NU for free, no question, such an easy decision, but the people actually attending NU are a bit more trepidatious.

[untar614]

I'm much less pessimistic than many about T14 law schools, but I honestly would not go to a non-HYS at all if I weren't interested in either BigLaw or directs services/less glamorous PI. If FedGov or high level non-profit work is all you're interested in, you better have an incredible background to back it up or go to HYS, and even then you're fighting an uphill battle. I think you need to think about what your backup plan would be, and whether you'd be happy with it. If it's BigLaw, then NU no question. If you'd rather work in legal aid, then NYU at least is a genuine option. If you'd rather not be a lawyer than do either, then don't go to law school.

Honestly, even legal aid and direct services are really competitive right now. Like, practically federal clerkship-competitive, from what I've seen. For NYU to be your choice here, your second-choice priority would have to be "unemployed at graduation and on a school-funded fellowship" over biglaw. (I am not nearly as bearish on these school-funded jobs as some people, but they're still not a great place to be.)

Yeah, if you don't want biglaw, then to take NYU at sticker, you would have to be pretty damn confident you will get a LRAP-qualifying job. If you have the background and are confident in that, it's fine. But then again, if you have the background, I don't see why getting PI out of NW wouldn't be doable either. Just what is the extent of the really tangible benefits? Once someone can shed some more light on that, the question is if they are worth >150k of debt should you be unable to land the job you want/need. If you are willing to do biglaw should it not work out (and actually take the necessary steps to ensure that's a viable backup), then it wouldn't be too dangerous, just more burdensome.

[Redamon1]

In your shoes I think I'd lobby NYU like crazy to make up for the price gap, but happily attend NU if that doesn't work. The peace of mind and flexibility that comes with 150k scholarship will blow your mind once you interact with classmates who (rightfully) have as their top job concern paying off loans. As others have said, lack of carrer advice at NU on PI would be a drawback, but IMO not insurmontable, and certainly not worth 150k.

I agree with you on lobbying NYU like crazy! How much is NYU worth more than NU in your opinion?

Hard to say. I think there's a threshold at which you loose your flexibility. Are you willing to go there? Consider this:

I think you need to think about what your backup plan would be, and whether you'd be happy with it. If it's BigLaw, then NU no question. If you'd rather work in legal aid, then NYU at least is a genuine option. If you'd rather not be a lawyer than do either, then don't go to law school.

Basically, if you pick NYU for more than your current finances can stomach (or a small loan), you become dependent on LRAP or BigLaw. Look closely at the LRAP conditions and see if you are willing to subject yourself to them. Remember that finding an eligible job that excites you will still be competitive (likely I think, but the point here is that it's still riskier than NU financially). Remember also that your interests while in law school may change, and not having to worry about loans or LRAP will provide tremendous flexibility. For example, you may discover that mid-law, small firms, or plaintiff side firms interest you. But they usually pay less, so if you have big loans to pay off, these gigs are out of reach because they do not qualify for LRAP and don't pay enough.

In short, I would say it depends on how much you have in savings and parental support and to what extent you are willing to loose the flexibility that comes with NU money and take on more risk/constraints.

[lsacqueen]

I'm much less pessimistic than many about T14 law schools, but I honestly would not go to a non-HYS at all if I weren't interested in either BigLaw or directs services/less glamorous PI. If FedGov or high level non-profit work is all you're interested in, you better have an incredible background to back it up or go to HYS, and even then you're fighting an uphill battle. I think you need to think about what your backup plan would be, and whether you'd be happy with it. If it's BigLaw, then NU no question. If you'd rather work in legal aid, then NYU at least is a genuine option. If you'd rather not be a lawyer than do either, then don't go to law school.

If I can't land any of the high-level FedGov or non-profit work or clerkship after law school, I would imagine I'd bite the bullet and do either BigLaw for a few years or legal aid. I don't have a problem with either of these options, although they are obviously not ideal for me. In terms of background, I think the main things that make me stand out are my background in the Arab world and Arabic language, which I hope to use as a lawyer working for the government or an NGO. I have traveled and lived extensively in MENA, wrote my thesis on the Arab Spring, and have some contacts in these countries, as well as in D.C., USAID, Proj on Middle East Democracy, etc. Hopefully this would set me apart and make finding a job in gov/PI slightly easier...

[lsacqueen]

Yeah, need moar info. Why do you want a clerkship? Where do you want to work? What are your backups if you don't get into the very competitive positions you want? Is biglaw something you could stomach for a few years?

I like how a bunch of posters immediately say NU for free, no question, such an easy decision, but the people actually attending NU are a bit more trepidatious.

Haha, i thought the same thing about the wary NU posters

Like I said in my OP, my geographical preferences are NYC > Chicago/DC > West Coast > South. I want to do a clerkship because I'm really interested in con law and I think it would not only pad the resume but also be a generally beneficial experience (networking, working closely with a judge, the learning aspect). So, it's certainly something I would love to have the opportunity to do for a year or two, and if I can pull the grades for it I'll apply widely. At the same time, I'm not banking on it, just like I'm not counting on scoring any of my top choice positions after law school. Legal aid and BigLaw are both things I could stomach for a few years, although I hope it's not where I'll be.

[lsacqueen]

I'm much less pessimistic than many about T14 law schools, but I honestly would not go to a non-HYS at all if I weren't interested in either BigLaw or directs services/less glamorous PI. If FedGov or high level non-profit work is all you're interested in, you better have an incredible background to back it up or go to HYS, and even then you're fighting an uphill battle. I think you need to think about what your backup plan would be, and whether you'd be happy with it. If it's BigLaw, then NU no question. If you'd rather work in legal aid, then NYU at least is a genuine option. If you'd rather not be a lawyer than do either, then don't go to law school.

Honestly, even legal aid and direct services are really competitive right now. Like, practically federal clerkship-competitive, from what I've seen. For NYU to be your choice here, your second-choice priority would have to be "unemployed at graduation and on a school-funded fellowship" over biglaw. (I am not nearly as bearish on these school-funded jobs as some people, but they're still not a great place to be.)

Yeah, if you don't want biglaw, then to take NYU at sticker, you would have to be pretty damn confident you will get a LRAP-qualifying job. If you have the background and are confident in that, it's fine. But then again, if you have the background, I don't see why getting PI out of NW wouldn't be doable either. Just what is the extent of the really tangible benefits? Once someone can shed some more light on that, the question is if they are worth >150k of debt should you be unable to land the job you want/need. If you are willing to do biglaw should it not work out (and actually take the necessary steps to ensure that's a viable backup), then it wouldn't be too dangerous, just more burdensome.

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying NYU would be more burdensome due to the debt, or that going to NU would be more burdensome because I'd have to find a PI job?

[Elston Gunn]

I'm much less pessimistic than many about T14 law schools, but I honestly would not go to a non-HYS at all if I weren't interested in either BigLaw or directs services/less glamorous PI. If FedGov or high level non-profit work is all you're interested in, you better have an incredible background to back it up or go to HYS, and even then you're fighting an uphill battle. I think you need to think about what your backup plan would be, and whether you'd be happy with it. If it's BigLaw, then NU no question. If you'd rather work in legal aid, then NYU at least is a genuine option. If you'd rather not be a lawyer than do either, then don't go to law school.

If I can't land any of the high-level FedGov or non-profit work or clerkship after law school, I would imagine I'd bite the bullet and do either BigLaw for a few years or legal aid. I don't have a problem with either of these options, although they are obviously not ideal for me. In terms of background, I think the main things that make me stand out are my background in the Arab world and Arabic language, which I hope to use as a lawyer working for the government or an NGO. I have traveled and lived extensively in MENA, wrote my thesis on the Arab Spring, and have some contacts in these countries, as well as in D.C., USAID, Proj on Middle East Democracy, etc. Hopefully this would set me apart and make finding a job in gov/PI slightly easier...

Why do you want to be a lawyer? I don't think your background will help you much if at all to get realistic legal gov positions ("international law" is, while not completely non-existent, pretty close), but it would help you get a non-legal government job.

[Big Dog]

I'm hoping to get a federal clerkship after law school,

check out the numbers on the ABA reports for federal clerkships -- something NU doesn't place as well as Chicago or NYU.