BU vs. BC

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Blindmelon
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby Blindmelon » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:38 pm

BU graduate here. If you do anything but go to the cheaper one, you are doing something really, really wrong. Your feelings about one campus being prettier (which BC definitively is), or one being in a better location (which BU definitely is) should not be considerations. If you do well at either school, you will do fine. If you don't, then you won't do well from either school.

ItsMyTimeBoston
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby ItsMyTimeBoston » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:34 pm

AllTheLawz wrote:
elm84dr wrote:
AllTheLawz wrote:
I should be more specific. I am talking about for major firms in Boston. There are probably around 175 major firm SA openings each year in Boston these days. 50 or so of these go to HLS, Boston produces a lot of people who go to top schools so lets say another 20-30 go to T14 students w/ Boston ties.. account for top students from random schools throughout the country and BU/BC are probably fighting for 50-75 major firm SAs in Boston between them. Clearly back of the envelope calculation but I don't think that sounds unreasonable and don't consider either good options for Boston if we are talking about major firms. If smaller firms, gov't and other things are added in then I agree that my statement might sound like hyperbole.


Okay, if limited to Wilmer/Goodwin/Ropes then yes, BC/BU really have no real edge over other schools. HLS and Top 14 w/Boston ties come first in the pecking order.


Unfortunately, that ~175 would include Ropes (40-55), Wilmer (25-35), Goodwin (25-30), Choate (12-20), Bingham (~10), Foley Hoag (~15), Skadden (5-10), Edwards Wildman (~5), Mintz Levin (5-10), etc. Boston is just a real small market and (according to what I have been told) will be small for the foreseeable future. I would really warn people about BU/BC at a high price.


I think Ropes is taking 27 for this coming summer (down from close to 100 a few years ago). That said, there are many more biglaw firms than what's listed in Boston. (Brown Rudnick, Nutter, Proskauer, Weil, Goulston, Nixon Peabody, Jones Day, Holland & Knight, etc. - some with more sizable offices than others).

ItsMyTimeBoston
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby ItsMyTimeBoston » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:40 pm

Blindmelon wrote:BU graduate here. If you do anything but go to the cheaper one, you are doing something really, really wrong. Your feelings about one campus being prettier (which BC definitively is), or one being in a better location (which BU definitely is) should not be considerations. If you do well at either school, you will do fine. If you don't, then you won't do well from either school.


Maybe. If one is significantly cheaper than the other, then take it. However, BC's alumni network is significantly stronger (in Boston and New England at least), and that should not be discounted when making a decision especially depending on where a prospective student wishes to practice.

AllTheLawz
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby AllTheLawz » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:51 pm

ItsMyTimeBoston wrote:
AllTheLawz wrote:
elm84dr wrote:
AllTheLawz wrote:
I should be more specific. I am talking about for major firms in Boston. There are probably around 175 major firm SA openings each year in Boston these days. 50 or so of these go to HLS, Boston produces a lot of people who go to top schools so lets say another 20-30 go to T14 students w/ Boston ties.. account for top students from random schools throughout the country and BU/BC are probably fighting for 50-75 major firm SAs in Boston between them. Clearly back of the envelope calculation but I don't think that sounds unreasonable and don't consider either good options for Boston if we are talking about major firms. If smaller firms, gov't and other things are added in then I agree that my statement might sound like hyperbole.


Okay, if limited to Wilmer/Goodwin/Ropes then yes, BC/BU really have no real edge over other schools. HLS and Top 14 w/Boston ties come first in the pecking order.


Unfortunately, that ~175 would include Ropes (40-55), Wilmer (25-35), Goodwin (25-30), Choate (12-20), Bingham (~10), Foley Hoag (~15), Skadden (5-10), Edwards Wildman (~5), Mintz Levin (5-10), etc. Boston is just a real small market and (according to what I have been told) will be small for the foreseeable future. I would really warn people about BU/BC at a high price.


I think Ropes is taking 27 for this coming summer (down from close to 100 a few years ago). That said, there are many more biglaw firms than what's listed in Boston. (Brown Rudnick, Nutter, Proskauer, Weil, Goulston, Nixon Peabody, Jones Day, Holland & Knight, etc. - some with more sizable offices than others).


Ropes is 40-45 this year. All those other places have summer classes in the ~5 range. All those combined are somewhere around 30 or so. In addition, all the firms listed above have summer classes on the lower edge of that range this year.

The Boston market has been absolutely tiny since the recession. In addition, people keep talking about these small/midsize firm networks. Most of the high-quality small/midsize firms have summer classes intermittently and almost always in the less than 5 range. To make matters worse, a number of them basically only hire laterals and very rarely take in entry-levels.

ItsMyTimeBoston
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby ItsMyTimeBoston » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:17 pm

I was just throwing it out there that there are other firms. I wasn't disputing the fact that the Boston legal market has contracted SIGNIFICANTLY since the recession; however, the Boston legal market is only 'tiny' if we are comparing it to NYC, Chicago, LA, Bay Area, DC and maybe TX.

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Blindmelon
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby Blindmelon » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:36 am

ItsMyTimeBoston wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:BU graduate here. If you do anything but go to the cheaper one, you are doing something really, really wrong. Your feelings about one campus being prettier (which BC definitively is), or one being in a better location (which BU definitely is) should not be considerations. If you do well at either school, you will do fine. If you don't, then you won't do well from either school.


Maybe. If one is significantly cheaper than the other, then take it. However, BC's alumni network is significantly stronger (in Boston and New England at least), and that should not be discounted when making a decision especially depending on where a prospective student wishes to practice.


Did you actually go to one of these schools or is this speculation? TLS is an echo chamber. When you start working, you will realize there is essentially no difference. The alumni network thing goes both ways - some firms are more heavy to one school, some the other.

TUICE
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby TUICE » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:50 am

I'm weighing my options between these two schools and others. I'm curious
if a BC/BU degree would transfer at all back to a place like Philly. I only ask because that's where I'm from and, though I've been to Boston and have liked it, there is a chance that I just don't like it once I move there. I guess the conventional wisdom is to go to a strong regional school if I want Philly, and I'm not sure that I do. But, hypothetically, if I went to BC/BU can I get a job in Philly? There doesn't seem to be much data on it, and I'm not sure if that's because you can't do it, or if nobody wants to do it.

AllTheLawz
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby AllTheLawz » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:39 am

TUICE wrote:I'm weighing my options between these two schools and others. I'm curious
if a BC/BU degree would transfer at all back to a place like Philly. I only ask because that's where I'm from and, though I've been to Boston and have liked it, there is a chance that I just don't like it once I move there. I guess the conventional wisdom is to go to a strong regional school if I want Philly, and I'm not sure that I do. But, hypothetically, if I went to BC/BU can I get a job in Philly? There doesn't seem to be much data on it, and I'm not sure if that's because you can't do it, or if nobody wants to do it.


If you are from a place the need to attend school in the area is lessened. However, you may have to mail more since fewer Philly firms will recruit at BC/BU than would at a school with greater Philly connection. You can definitely go from BC/BU to any place if you have the grades.

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Blindmelon
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby Blindmelon » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:20 am

AllTheLawz wrote:
TUICE wrote:I'm weighing my options between these two schools and others. I'm curious
if a BC/BU degree would transfer at all back to a place like Philly. I only ask because that's where I'm from and, though I've been to Boston and have liked it, there is a chance that I just don't like it once I move there. I guess the conventional wisdom is to go to a strong regional school if I want Philly, and I'm not sure that I do. But, hypothetically, if I went to BC/BU can I get a job in Philly? There doesn't seem to be much data on it, and I'm not sure if that's because you can't do it, or if nobody wants to do it.


If you are from a place the need to attend school in the area is lessened. However, you may have to mail more since fewer Philly firms will recruit at BC/BU than would at a school with greater Philly connection. You can definitely go from BC/BU to any place if you have the grades.


I know of BU people at big firms in philly - its possible, but I wouldn't bank on it. The bolded part is spot on.

ItsMyTimeBoston
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby ItsMyTimeBoston » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:48 am

Blindmelon wrote:
ItsMyTimeBoston wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:BU graduate here. If you do anything but go to the cheaper one, you are doing something really, really wrong. Your feelings about one campus being prettier (which BC definitively is), or one being in a better location (which BU definitely is) should not be considerations. If you do well at either school, you will do fine. If you don't, then you won't do well from either school.


Maybe. If one is significantly cheaper than the other, then take it. However, BC's alumni network is significantly stronger (in Boston and New England at least), and that should not be discounted when making a decision especially depending on where a prospective student wishes to practice.


Did you actually go to one of these schools or is this speculation? TLS is an echo chamber. When you start working, you will realize there is essentially no difference. The alumni network thing goes both ways - some firms are more heavy to one school, some the other.


I'm a current student who transferred into BC - my two cents comes from personal research, 6 years prior work experience in Boston legal market (discussions with attorneys I've worked for--BC and BU grads), comments in interviews/call-backs regarding the two schools that came out of the 'transfer' discussion, etc.

colonelnerd
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby colonelnerd » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:10 am

ItsMyTimeBoston wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
ItsMyTimeBoston wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:BU graduate here. If you do anything but go to the cheaper one, you are doing something really, really wrong. Your feelings about one campus being prettier (which BC definitively is), or one being in a better location (which BU definitely is) should not be considerations. If you do well at either school, you will do fine. If you don't, then you won't do well from either school.


Maybe. If one is significantly cheaper than the other, then take it. However, BC's alumni network is significantly stronger (in Boston and New England at least), and that should not be discounted when making a decision especially depending on where a prospective student wishes to practice.


Did you actually go to one of these schools or is this speculation? TLS is an echo chamber. When you start working, you will realize there is essentially no difference. The alumni network thing goes both ways - some firms are more heavy to one school, some the other.


I'm a current student who transferred into BC - my two cents comes from personal research, 6 years prior work experience in Boston legal market (discussions with attorneys I've worked for--BC and BU grads), comments in interviews/call-backs regarding the two schools that came out of the 'transfer' discussion, etc.


It seems that, at the end of the day, BC has a small advantage in prestige and alumni network in Boston/New England. But really, it seems kind of negligible to me.

On the other hand, I think it's pretty uncontested that BU has better national reach (especially NYC and Cali). It seems to me that this gives BU graduates an essentially equal chance at Boston jobs, while also giving them options in other markets that BC grads just don't have.

Itsmytimeinboston, what do you think of this?

Blindmelon, do you think the shrinking class size of BU will have any difference on job outcomes?

You guys are all the best, I <3 TLS :D

ItsMyTimeBoston
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby ItsMyTimeBoston » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:38 am

colonelnerd wrote:
It seems that, at the end of the day, BC has a small advantage in prestige and alumni network in Boston/New England. But really, it seems kind of negligible to me.

On the other hand, I think it's pretty uncontested that BU has better national reach (especially NYC and Cali). It seems to me that this gives BU graduates an essentially equal chance at Boston jobs, while also giving them options in other markets that BC grads just don't have.

Itsmytimeinboston, what do you think of this?

Blindmelon, do you think the shrinking class size of BU will have any difference on job outcomes?

You guys are all the best, I <3 TLS :D


I think this is pretty much spot on. It's my impression, however, that when the economy is booming -- and even in times of milder recessions -- the BC alumni network's edge is much more pronounced as alums are in a position to do more.

Edit: Also - there was a message from the BC law dean a few weeks ago that BC was also going to also shrink incoming class sizes among other things.

TUICE
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby TUICE » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:48 am

Blindmelon wrote:
AllTheLawz wrote:
TUICE wrote:I'm weighing my options between these two schools and others. I'm curious
if a BC/BU degree would transfer at all back to a place like Philly. I only ask because that's where I'm from and, though I've been to Boston and have liked it, there is a chance that I just don't like it once I move there. I guess the conventional wisdom is to go to a strong regional school if I want Philly, and I'm not sure that I do. But, hypothetically, if I went to BC/BU can I get a job in Philly? There doesn't seem to be much data on it, and I'm not sure if that's because you can't do it, or if nobody wants to do it.


If you are from a place the need to attend school in the area is lessened. However, you may have to mail more since fewer Philly firms will recruit at BC/BU than would at a school with greater Philly connection. You can definitely go from BC/BU to any place if you have the grades.


I know of BU people at big firms in philly - its possible, but I wouldn't bank on it. The bolded part is spot on.


Thanks guys, I appreciate the help. I'm definitely not banking on it, I just wanted to know if going to either of these schools would preclude coming back to Philly. But it seems like grades (as expected) will be the determining factor.

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rufus&miles
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby rufus&miles » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:06 pm

ItsMyTimeBoston wrote:
Also - there was a message from the BC law dean a few weeks ago that BC was also going to also shrink incoming class sizes among other things.


Do you have any more information about this??

colonelnerd
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby colonelnerd » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:48 pm

rufus&miles wrote:
ItsMyTimeBoston wrote:
Also - there was a message from the BC law dean a few weeks ago that BC was also going to also shrink incoming class sizes among other things.


Do you have any more information about this??


I would also be very interested in this. (Even though it won't affect Class of 2016, I'm assuming)

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Blindmelon
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby Blindmelon » Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:24 pm

ItsMyTimeBoston wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
ItsMyTimeBoston wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:BU graduate here. If you do anything but go to the cheaper one, you are doing something really, really wrong. Your feelings about one campus being prettier (which BC definitively is), or one being in a better location (which BU definitely is) should not be considerations. If you do well at either school, you will do fine. If you don't, then you won't do well from either school.


Maybe. If one is significantly cheaper than the other, then take it. However, BC's alumni network is significantly stronger (in Boston and New England at least), and that should not be discounted when making a decision especially depending on where a prospective student wishes to practice.


Did you actually go to one of these schools or is this speculation? TLS is an echo chamber. When you start working, you will realize there is essentially no difference. The alumni network thing goes both ways - some firms are more heavy to one school, some the other.


I'm a current student who transferred into BC - my two cents comes from personal research, 6 years prior work experience in Boston legal market (discussions with attorneys I've worked for--BC and BU grads), comments in interviews/call-backs regarding the two schools that came out of the 'transfer' discussion, etc.


Ah, ok makes sense. As I said, some firms like BC, some BU. If you're at a firm that likes BC it makes sense you would get that impression. Others get a different impression - won't get into more detail as to my experience as I don't want to out where I work.

Also, to someone's else's point - I don't think BU's shrinking class size will have much of an effect. Will probably still need to be top 1/3rd to have a fighting *chance* at a large firm offer barring other contributing factors - I don't see that changing. Of course I know people below median who are at large firms. As much as job prospects is a grades game, its also a lot of luck and soft factors.

elm84dr
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby elm84dr » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:11 pm

I would say that the shrinking class will help. There are some people in my class at median (non-URM) that landed firm jobs. I think if firms usually take 4-5 BU people, or 1-2 BU people every year, that they will decide to take less BU students because class sizes shrunk. That seems pretty random, and it seems more likely that they would keep pace on their average hiring from a school.

ItsMyTimeBoston
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby ItsMyTimeBoston » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:55 pm

Here's a tiny excerpt from a longer letter that went out to the BC law community:

"Our long-term plan includes a number of initiatives that should move these numbers in the other direction. In order to strengthen selectivity, we are lowering the size of our entering class and increasing financial aid to incoming students."

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rufus&miles
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby rufus&miles » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:09 am

ItsMyTimeBoston wrote:Here's a tiny excerpt from a longer letter that went out to the BC law community:

"Our long-term plan includes a number of initiatives that should move these numbers in the other direction. In order to strengthen selectivity, we are lowering the size of our entering class and increasing financial aid to incoming students."


Thanks!

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Blindmelon
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby Blindmelon » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:05 pm

To put some numbers behind the fact that BC/BU are the same and feelings about which is better depends on who you talk to from where -

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... aw_Schools

For the top 3 firms in Boston:
Goodwin BU 9; BC 2
Wilmer BU 6; BC 6
Ropes BU 2; BC 10

Ropes has always favored BC, Goodwin BU, and Wilmer's numbers change a lot by the year. BU edged out BC in large firm placement, but again, they ping pong back and forth. Its a wash.

In conclusion, cheaper = better.

Also, debt is a lot, lot worse than what it lookes like on paper. Even with a big firm salary.

ItsMyTimeBoston
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby ItsMyTimeBoston » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:11 pm

Blindmelon wrote:To put some numbers behind the fact that BC/BU are the same and feelings about which is better depends on who you talk to from where -

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... aw_Schools

For the top 3 firms in Boston:
Goodwin BU 9; BC 2
Wilmer BU 6; BC 6
Ropes BU 2; BC 10

Ropes has always favored BC, Goodwin BU, and Wilmer's numbers change a lot by the year. BU edged out BC in large firm placement, but again, they ping pong back and forth. Its a wash.

In conclusion, cheaper = better.

Also, debt is a lot, lot worse than what it lookes like on paper. Even with a big firm salary.


Well said. If money is the same, put some effort into getting a feel for the schools and make a decision that way. If cost of attendance is cheaper at one (by more than say 30K for all 3 years) then go to the cheaper school.
Last edited by ItsMyTimeBoston on Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aristone
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby Aristone » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:41 pm

I went to BC and am back in Philadelphia working for a firm...if you have any specific questions, feel free to message me directly.

Headybrah
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby Headybrah » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:11 pm

in regards to bu/bc --> Philly I think this point is worth mentioning:

Both schools have OCI programs in Philly. However the number of firms participating is quite low - think for BU it was like 4-7...

The thing you need to realize is most law students rely on OCI to their detriment. If you want philly, love it and are proactive, you should have a good shot. If you are summering in Philly b/w 1L and 2L years, make sure you contact EVERY firm in philly to state your interest, that you are in town blah blah blah. This should net you more opportunities than the typical bu/bc student because you have a great connection with philly. I interviewed there and tried to stretch some connections that was complete b.s. so my call backs were not successful. But if you do well - and take action outside OCI - you'll have plenty of opportunities. The key is to make contacts in Philly firms early, and send out targeted mass mailers in early July late June to get in before the rush of OCI.

Plus - what philly lawyer wouldn't want to hear "I went to school at BU/BC because I wanted the best educational experience and I thought I'd give Boston a try, but of course, my intuition was confirmed that I want to be in Philly - if I stayed in philly I would always be wondering what other places are like - now I know for sure Philly is for me - plus I hate the Sox."

Best of luck.

Also - don't just pick bu/bc based on cost. Yes that probably should be the main factor - but in the end, if you are way more comfortable in a campus setting or in the facilities of one school vs. the other - thats also kinda important and directly correlates to how well you;ll do. If you are happy, likely to do better. Also - if you love say, environmental law, BC should be for you - if you love say corporate, BU has the edge. While I dont think you can know for sure what you want to do before going in - and it shouldn't be a huge factor - it is something to think about.

For me, bu seemed to be full of older, perhaps more mature students vs. bc which had more of a collegiate atmosphere.

But again - $ should probably be the biggest factor

CourCour
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby CourCour » Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:49 am

BC's network and loyalty in the Boston market makes it the unquestionable better choice.

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Blindmelon
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Re: BU vs. BC

Postby Blindmelon » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:05 am

CourCour wrote:BC's network and loyalty in the Boston market makes it the unquestionable better choice.


Says the 0L who is probably going to BC and/or got rejected by BU.




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