It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school?

NYU (50K total scholarship)
58
55%
Cornell (105K total scholarship)
48
45%
 
Total votes: 106

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:03 pm

gaucholaw wrote:look, I am a OL,... but I think too often TLS is short-sighted.... yes you can cite facts from 2010-13 or whatever, and to be fair there is merit there... but you can't completely ignore trends from going back the last half-century... my sources come from acquaintances who do/have worked v-10 been professors etc. yes they tend to be older, but their input is nevertheless imho valuable..... it just seems like too often TLS gets on these bandwagons... this year its Penn being the new "CCN" two years ago it was Boalt.... I've been on this site for four years now and I've seen people come and go with their different opinions - this is why I'm more partial towards the albeit anecdotal evidence/advice from my 10 or less distinguished acquaintances than LST graphs for one year

This is a good point. The conventional wisdom on here has changed remarkably in the years since I signed up with respect to which schools are on the rise, which to avoid, etc. I don't believe the reality has shifted anywhere near the same amount (though the reality of the profession has certainly changed dramatically) over the last five years, and I think that by the time a current 0L graduates people on here will probably be talking about how Virginia is better than Chicago or something.

Revolver066
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby Revolver066 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:20 pm

Thanks to Tiago (NLJ 250 numbers, so not perfect and no A3 clerkships, but still useful)
2009-2012 averages:

Penn..............55.35
Columbia.........53.63
Chicago..........53.12
Northwestern...49.16
Harvard..........49.15
Stanford.........47.76
Berkeley.........46.7
NYU...............46.6
Cornell............45.6
UVA...............45.42
Duke..............44.22
Michigan.........40.79
GULC..............35.7
Yale...............32.63
USC...............32.88
Vandy.............31.31
UCLA..............30.71
Texas.............27.63

Heres another thread about 2007-2009 stats viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150004
Basically in 07-08 Penn and NYU are close, with the edge to Penn. Not saying its conclusive one way or another, but some of these trends arent just one year things folks.

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cahwc12
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby cahwc12 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:45 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
gaucholaw wrote:look, I am a OL,... but I think too often TLS is short-sighted.... yes you can cite facts from 2010-13 or whatever, and to be fair there is merit there... but you can't completely ignore trends from going back the last half-century... my sources come from acquaintances who do/have worked v-10 been professors etc. yes they tend to be older, but their input is nevertheless imho valuable..... it just seems like too often TLS gets on these bandwagons... this year its Penn being the new "CCN" two years ago it was Boalt.... I've been on this site for four years now and I've seen people come and go with their different opinions - this is why I'm more partial towards the albeit anecdotal evidence/advice from my 10 or less distinguished acquaintances than LST graphs for one year

This is a good point. The conventional wisdom on here has changed remarkably in the years since I signed up with respect to which schools are on the rise, which to avoid, etc. I don't believe the reality has shifted anywhere near the same amount (though the reality of the profession has certainly changed dramatically) over the last five years, and I think that by the time a current 0L graduates people on here will probably be talking about how Virginia is better than Chicago or something.


Well if we're touting tenure, I'm pretty sure I've been on the site longer than any other active poster and I don't base my opinion on 1 year sample (although I'm not sure if that comment was made toward me or just in general). I will admit some personal bias toward Cornell, but I truly don't believe that there is a $75k difference in NYU and Cornell with respect to just NY biglaw. I do think there are arguments to be made with regards to a couple points that haven't really been brought up:

(1) summer associate from cornell vs NYU and associated COL expenses which may well be nontrivial with regard to subleasing, relocation, etc.

(2) if/when OP decides he doesn't want to limit himself to NY biglaw, NYU is clearly a better overall option and I don't dispute that.

If he's truly as committed to NY biglaw as he claims though, I think Cornell at ~$75k+ cheaper (with interest) has to be the winner.

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:16 pm

gaucholaw wrote:look, I am a OL,... but I think too often TLS is short-sighted.... yes you can cite facts from 2010-13 or whatever, and to be fair there is merit there... but you can't completely ignore trends from going back the last half-century... my sources come from acquaintances who do/have worked v-10 been professors etc. yes they tend to be older, but their input is nevertheless imho valuable..... it just seems like too often TLS gets on these bandwagons... this year its Penn being the new "CCN" two years ago it was Boalt.... I've been on this site for four years now and I've seen people come and go with their different opinions - this is why I'm more partial towards the albeit anecdotal evidence/advice from my 10 or less distinguished acquaintances than LST graphs for one year


cool story but you are wrong. As was proved after your thread. With your separation of D into the latter category would assume that D is a lesser school; That is not true and Duke has placed well for clerkships for years not just one.

Speaking to older lawyers is not valuable advice because the legal landscape has significantly changed.

I'm a 0L too but your opinion is not based on reality. Carry on

Lincoln wrote:
gaucholaw wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:
bowser wrote:why is cornell so bad at AIII clerking? Doesn't really seem to follow.

Not sure. However, they have poured significant resources into it the last few years from what current 3Ls tell me. Judging from antecdotes, we seemed to do pretty well this year. However, we don't match even the lower T14 schools that consistently post good numbers (eg UVA).


This is where imho opinion a distinction needs to be made within the lower T-14.... for biglaw I agree that UVA and Cornell are "peer schools" However, when it comes to clerking and getting v-10, its not that GULC NU Cornell and DUKE are bad.... they do relatively well.... its just that in regards to this specific category.... MVPB is just a higher caliber... and for clerking MVPB cannot be seen as peers with the t-14's below it

Sum:
Big LAW: non-HYSCCN schools are peers

Clerking/Academia/special snowflake stuff - there IS a distinction between MVPB and DNCG


Please list the V10 firms where MVPB are all better represented (in relation to their respective class sizes) than DNC for the classes of 2013 or 2014.

Also, for clerkships, Duke outplaces Penn, Michigan, Columbia, Berkeley, NYU.


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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:20 pm

Revolver066 wrote:Thanks to Tiago (NLJ 250 numbers, so not perfect and no A3 clerkships, but still useful)
2009-2012 averages:

Penn..............55.35
Columbia.........53.63
Chicago..........53.12
Northwestern...49.16
Harvard..........49.15
Stanford.........47.76
Berkeley.........46.7
NYU...............46.6
Cornell............45.6
UVA...............45.42
Duke..............44.22
Michigan.........40.79
GULC..............35.7
Yale...............32.63
USC...............32.88
Vandy.............31.31
UCLA..............30.71
Texas.............27.63

Heres another thread about 2007-2009 stats viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150004
Basically in 07-08 Penn and NYU are close, with the edge to Penn. Not saying its conclusive one way or another, but some of these trends arent just one year things folks.



Exactly. TLS'ers should know that USNews is whack. Go to the school w/ the best employment prospects with the best scholarship. Who gives a crap if NU is ranked 12th when they have been placing 4th w.r.t jobs.

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Lincoln
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby Lincoln » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:33 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
gaucholaw wrote:look, I am a OL,... but I think too often TLS is short-sighted.... yes you can cite facts from 2010-13 or whatever, and to be fair there is merit there... but you can't completely ignore trends from going back the last half-century... my sources come from acquaintances who do/have worked v-10 been professors etc. yes they tend to be older, but their input is nevertheless imho valuable..... it just seems like too often TLS gets on these bandwagons... this year its Penn being the new "CCN" two years ago it was Boalt.... I've been on this site for four years now and I've seen people come and go with their different opinions - this is why I'm more partial towards the albeit anecdotal evidence/advice from my 10 or less distinguished acquaintances than LST graphs for one year

This is a good point. The conventional wisdom on here has changed remarkably in the years since I signed up with respect to which schools are on the rise, which to avoid, etc. I don't believe the reality has shifted anywhere near the same amount (though the reality of the profession has certainly changed dramatically) over the last five years, and I think that by the time a current 0L graduates people on here will probably be talking about how Virginia is better than Chicago or something.


The issue is not about which schools are on the rise, or whatever; I agree that people overanalyze year-on-year changes. But gaucholaw was arguing that MVPB is in a separate class from DNC when it comes to V10 and clerkship placement. That is just incorrect in every way. I don't know of a V10 firm where such a division is reflected in their hiring, which is why I challenged guacholaw to name one. As is evident by Duke's outstanding clerkship placement, it's not true for clerkships either. Some schools are better at finding their students clerkships (UVA, Duke). Others do very well with getting their students BigLaw jobs. There's less difference here, but Cornell is clearly doing well, outplacing UVA, Michigan, and Berkeley in BigLaw+clerkship totals for c/o 2012 and, as J-e-L-L-o showed, held its own over the last three years. The point isn't that one is better than the other, but that there is no dividing line based on US News ranking, as gaucholaw seems to believe. Whether that was the case a half-century ago I can't really opine on, but a half-century ago most V10s didn't hire jews, catholics, women, hispanics, African Americans, or openly gay people, so I don't think that's really informative.

Edited for typos.

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sinfiery
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby sinfiery » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:07 am

Quoting from another thread. Yeah, it isn't perfect and doesn't mean much alone but atleast it's something


pissantvache wrote:I posted this a couple of weeks ago in the legal employment forum. Don't know why I didn't think to post it here, where people would probably care about it more. But anyways, it tries to take a serious look at placement "quality" (as determined by vault). I'm happy to extend this for more schools, but only if a few people on here are interested in seeing it. As it is, I only posted on T14.

So, since the National Law Journal decided to release a treasure trove of data (on how it computed its go-to law school index), I decided to review the Vault Rank-weighted placement statistics as a means of evaluating the average quality of a school's placement. That is, I assigned a score to each firm that was inversely proportional to the firm's Vault rank (Wachtell got 100, Cravath 99, Skadden 98, and so on), multiplied that by the number of graduates each school placed at that firm, added those scores up, and divided by the total placements that school effected, to determine the average quality of a school's placement.

Without further ado, here are the results (I've also added the name of the firm closest in Vault rank to the score for comparison purposes):

1. Yale (80.02) (Arnold & Porter)
2. Harvard (71.80) (Cadwalader)
3. NYU (69.91) (Fried Frank)
4. Columbia (69.43) (Baker & McKenzie)
5. Boalt (69.08) (Baker & McKenzie)
6. Chicago (67.00) (Proskauer)
7. Stanford (66.92) (Proskauer)
8. Georgetown (64.28) (Goodwin Procter)
9. Northwestern (63.67) (Goodwin Procter)
10. Cornell (59.41) (Winston & Strawn)
11. Penn (57.48) (Fulbright & Jaworski)
12. Duke (56.59) (Fulbright & Jaworski)
13. Michigan (56.39) (Dechert)
14. UVA (53.44) (McDermott Will & Emery)

Obviously, there are a lot of problems with this ranking: First (and somewhat inexplicably), I'm not sure that the NLJ data is all that good. Davis Polk only, apparently, has 6 2012 grads. This doesn't make sense. Paul Weiss isn't even included in the list. Less inexplicably, the magic circle firms also aren't included. This probably did affect the rankings somewhat. For example, Columbia does very well with DPW, and many law review students there select PW over higher rated firms. The fact that NYU has a huge number of grads go to Cleary (included) could, thus, be corrupting the data as between Columbia and NYU.

Second, this ranking--unlike the NLJ's--doesn't account for the number of grads who don't go to Biglaw. So Penn ends up looking emphatically not great in this ranking, but when coupled with its higher placement rates (~60% according to NLJ data), could still be competitive with a higher ranked school like Berkeley (~45%).

Third, and most obviously, the Vault ranking has a lot of problems too, as has been well documented here.

I think the biggest surprise here is Berkeley's strong result, especially vis-a-vis Stanford. I expected NYU/CLS/Harvard/Yale to do well compared against Stanford due to the NYC focus of the Vault rankings, but that Berkeley would maintain nearly the same placement rate as Stanford (a little bit over 47%, compared with 45%), but do so much better in vault placement is a surprise. I suppose one possible mechanism by which this could happen is that lots of Stanford grads pursue prestige boutiques like Keker and Susman, while Berkeley students have less access? I suppose clerkships could have an effect as well, but there my expectation would be that Stanford would look more like Yale where (by hypothesis) the easy availability of clerkships means that inadequate job offers lead students to jump to a clerkship to trade up. But given their similar size and rank, and the divergence between the two, I'm being led to conclude that in fact stanford students don't have anywhere near the clerkship access that Yalies do.

Thoughts?

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bizzybone1313
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:14 am

Revolver066 wrote:Thanks to Tiago (NLJ 250 numbers, so not perfect and no A3 clerkships, but still useful)
2009-2012 averages:

Penn..............55.35
Columbia.........53.63
Chicago..........53.12
Northwestern...49.16
Harvard..........49.15
Stanford.........47.76
Berkeley.........46.7
NYU...............46.6
Cornell............45.6
UVA...............45.42
Duke..............44.22
Michigan.........40.79
GULC..............35.7
Yale...............32.63
USC...............32.88
Vandy.............31.31
UCLA..............30.71
Texas.............27.63

Heres another thread about 2007-2009 stats viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150004
Basically in 07-08 Penn and NYU are close, with the edge to Penn. Not saying its conclusive one way or another, but some of these trends arent just one year things folks.


Agreed. NYU is becoming a TTT and has always been overhyped on TLS. Almost any T-14 with similar or more $$ over NYU. All day every day. Kinda like that one song from Bone Thugs-N-Harmony- Everyday Thang.

Revolver066
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby Revolver066 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:27 am

To sinfiery, I'll direct you to what Rayiner said in this thread viewtopic.php?f=5&t=200428&start=100

"I think 0L's overestimate the degree to which people will go to NYC just to get into a V10 firm versus a V25 or V50. It's very common at NU for people to turn down NYC V10 offers for Sidley/Kirkland in Chicago. For people with good grades, the NYC V10 are almost like a safety--they make so many offers you can count on getting one without the randomness that accompanies pursuing D.C. or Chicago firms with smaller class sizes"

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sinfiery
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby sinfiery » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:29 am

I see.


Still, I'm just gonna spam it because lol@Penn

gaucholaw
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby gaucholaw » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:44 am

OK, touché, I have been weighed, measured, and have been found wanting 8) ( I guess I won't be the kid in section who's never lost an argument)
I guess at my heart I was trying to argue that overall there are certain distinctions between the lower t-14's, however, i think it is fair to modify that and say, that "distinction" doesn't mean "superior/inferior" .... I now shall stop harping MVPB over DNCG... and yes... G... is still Georgetown.... anecdotal evidence is, you guys are right, limited.... however, when I was weighing my options and aspirations with lower t-14 (knowing I was not quite qualified for CCN and above) a distinguished professor asked me what I WANTED, I told him/her my dream was AIII, but that's unrealistic - im no special snowflake.... that person told me, that I won't know unless I try... UVA bound I am.... if your dream is biglaw - Cornell is a great option, if you are debt-averse than in this case it may even be better than NYU.
Cheers,
gaucholaw

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moonman157
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby moonman157 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:23 pm

I definitely understand the difficulty in answering this question because it's impossible for me to quantify how great my desire is to live in NYC during law school because even I don't know that. The uncertainties are definitely the most frustrating aspect of this decision: will I love NYC that much, will I hate Ithaca that much, will I get V10 if I went NYU instead of Cornell, will I absolutely hate biglaw and wish I could leave a few years earlier with the money I saved by going to Cornell, etc.

I guess then if I could rephrase the original question, I would ask "Would I be absolutely crazy to go to NYU in this situation?" And it seems like the consensus is no, even if others would make a different decision.

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hephaestus
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby hephaestus » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:26 pm

moonman157 wrote:I definitely understand the difficulty in answering this question because it's impossible for me to quantify how great my desire is to live in NYC during law school because even I don't know that. The uncertainties are definitely the most frustrating aspect of this decision: will I love NYC that much, will I hate Ithaca that much, will I get V10 if I went NYU instead of Cornell, will I absolutely hate biglaw and wish I could leave a few years earlier with the money I saved by going to Cornell, etc.

I guess then if I could rephrase the original question, I would ask "Would I be absolutely crazy to go to NYU in this situation?" And it seems like the consensus is no, even if others would make a different decision.

Is there a reason that you want a V10 firm specifically, besides prestige? I think that's a key question. If that's a deciding factor, your reasoning is important. I turned down a lower T14 (so not CCN) in a much better location to come to Cornell because of $$$, and I think it was the right call.

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moonman157
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby moonman157 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:28 pm

ImNoScar wrote:
moonman157 wrote:I definitely understand the difficulty in answering this question because it's impossible for me to quantify how great my desire is to live in NYC during law school because even I don't know that. The uncertainties are definitely the most frustrating aspect of this decision: will I love NYC that much, will I hate Ithaca that much, will I get V10 if I went NYU instead of Cornell, will I absolutely hate biglaw and wish I could leave a few years earlier with the money I saved by going to Cornell, etc.

I guess then if I could rephrase the original question, I would ask "Would I be absolutely crazy to go to NYU in this situation?" And it seems like the consensus is no, even if others would make a different decision.

Is there a reason that you want a V10 firm specifically, besides prestige? I think that's a key question. If that's a deciding factor, your reasoning is important. I turned down a lower T14 (so not CCN) in a much better location to come to Cornell because of $$$, and I think it was the right call.


It seems that the exit options coming out of those firms are better and being able to be in NYC.

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Lincoln
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby Lincoln » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:56 pm

moonman157 wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:
moonman157 wrote:I definitely understand the difficulty in answering this question because it's impossible for me to quantify how great my desire is to live in NYC during law school because even I don't know that. The uncertainties are definitely the most frustrating aspect of this decision: will I love NYC that much, will I hate Ithaca that much, will I get V10 if I went NYU instead of Cornell, will I absolutely hate biglaw and wish I could leave a few years earlier with the money I saved by going to Cornell, etc.

I guess then if I could rephrase the original question, I would ask "Would I be absolutely crazy to go to NYU in this situation?" And it seems like the consensus is no, even if others would make a different decision.

Is there a reason that you want a V10 firm specifically, besides prestige? I think that's a key question. If that's a deciding factor, your reasoning is important. I turned down a lower T14 (so not CCN) in a much better location to come to Cornell because of $$$, and I think it was the right call.


It seems that the exit options coming out of those firms are better and being able to be in NYC.


V10 is an arbitrary distinction. Even among firms with NYC headquarters, Paul Weiss, Boies Schiller, and Debevoise are just as preftigous and offer just as good exit options as many V10s. And that ignores many other firms that have large NYC offices but are headquartered elsewhere.

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moonman157
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby moonman157 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:03 pm

Fair enough. Obviously a 0L here lol so my understandings of these matters come secondhand. By V10 I mean more generally firms that will give me better pay and exit options haha. You've been extremely helpful throughout this btw with all the information so thank you.

mmbt123
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby mmbt123 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:24 pm

Hey just scrolling through this thread. W/regards to wanting to explore NYC your 3L, I talked to Sarah Busse in admissions who said that there's an exchange program btwn NYU Law and Cornell so you could spend a semester there if you wanted to.

melissa91791
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby melissa91791 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:03 pm

hey, just saw this so i thought i'd chime in. i am an undergrad at cornell right now, and my dream city is nyc. i love big cities, but i came to cornell because i thought it was a prestigious school and i figured i could always live in nyc later on. also they gave me more money than other schools. i don't want this to totally discourage you from coming to the school, but i just want to share my honest opinion. i have to say that coming to cornell was one of the biggest mistakes i have ever made. maybe undergrad here is a lot different than the law school, although i spend a lot of time in the law school library and have met several law students. i have heard horror stories about the competition in the law school here, and i know from my undergrad experience that cornellians are insanely competitive and are really not keen on helping. the winters here are extremely oppressive and a lot of people end up developing some sort of depression related to the environment and the weather. the amount of depression/mental illness here is so incredibly high, and a lot of people here truly hate the school. so if you are not a fan of really small towns i would strongly, strongly encourage you to put some careful thought into the decision. definitely spend a few days here and contemplate it all.

again i feel really bad saying this because there are definitely a lot of people here i know who love the whole cornell/ithaca experience, but i also know a lot of people who are truly miserable. also i am only an undergrad and its possible the law school is just completely different. i mean you got into a wonderful law school in you favorite city so maybe accruing a little extra debt isn't a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.

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moonman157
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby moonman157 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:18 am

melissa91791 wrote:hey, just saw this so i thought i'd chime in. i am an undergrad at cornell right now, and my dream city is nyc. i love big cities, but i came to cornell because i thought it was a prestigious school and i figured i could always live in nyc later on. also they gave me more money than other schools. i don't want this to totally discourage you from coming to the school, but i just want to share my honest opinion. i have to say that coming to cornell was one of the biggest mistakes i have ever made. maybe undergrad here is a lot different than the law school, although i spend a lot of time in the law school library and have met several law students. i have heard horror stories about the competition in the law school here, and i know from my undergrad experience that cornellians are insanely competitive and are really not keen on helping. the winters here are extremely oppressive and a lot of people end up developing some sort of depression related to the environment and the weather. the amount of depression/mental illness here is so incredibly high, and a lot of people here truly hate the school. so if you are not a fan of really small towns i would strongly, strongly encourage you to put some careful thought into the decision. definitely spend a few days here and contemplate it all.

again i feel really bad saying this because there are definitely a lot of people here i know who love the whole cornell/ithaca experience, but i also know a lot of people who are truly miserable. also i am only an undergrad and its possible the law school is just completely different. i mean you got into a wonderful law school in you favorite city so maybe accruing a little extra debt isn't a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.


Thank you very much for this, and sorry to hear about your unhappiness. This is definitely what I'm really afraid of (in addition to not getting a job lol)

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jbagelboy
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Re: It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:32 am

Lincoln wrote:Whether that was the case a half-century ago I can't really opine on, but a half-century ago most V10s didn't hire jews, catholics, women, hispanics, African Americans, or openly gay people, so I don't think that's really informative.



Boom. Love it.

melissa91791 wrote:the winters here are extremely oppressive and a lot of people end up developing some sort of depression related to the environment and the weather. the amount of depression/mental illness here is so incredibly high, and a lot of people here truly hate the school.


cornell has top documented suicide rate of any school in the nation. i know people that hate ithaca too. their dining hall is supposedly amazing though because of the culinary school, but this wouldn't make a difference for law school.

melissa91791 wrote:i mean you got into a wonderful law school in you favorite city so maybe accruing a little extra debt isn't a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.


this. I've been saying this across tls recently. law school isn't JUST employment. its also literally 3 not so insignificant years of your life.




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