Top Law Schools

cahwc12 wrote:

moonman157 wrote:I appreciate any feedback.

Currently, the two options that I'm considering are NYU with a $50K total scholarship and Cornell with a $105K total scholarship. My goal is NYC biglaw, and NYC is my dream city to live in as I love urban environments and hate small towns. I also want to live somewhere with an active gay scene/population. I also have about 50K saved up specifically for law school. NYU is in my dream location and has better access to the top firms, but Cornell will save me a lot of money. I feel that situation is one where there isn't a definitive clear choice, so I'm posting here. Thank you all very much.

If NYC biglaw is really all you care about, I think Cornell runs away with it. They have very similar NYC biglaw placements, and Cornell at that price will save you about $100k after interest/COL is factored in (vs NYU @$50k). And when you decide the second week you're there that you hate biglaw, Cornell gives you the option to leave sooner since you'll have less debt to pay off.

Are you sure that you can't get NYU to up the ante a little bit? If they do, you could leverage that back against Cornell again. Given your numbers and the scholarship offers on the table, it seems like you have some room to play. You could probably pit Cornell against Michigan, then Michigan against NYU, and finally NYU back to Cornell.

Your seat deposit isn't due for a while, and you have plenty of time to do a discount double check.

dixiecupdrinking wrote: Cost of living is overrated. Just don't live in the Village. It isn't another $50k.

Really think NYU versus Cornell ought to be a more-than-$50k decision.

• 1. Tuition increases 0% from 2012-2013 to 2013-2014 (and it will).
  2. Tuition increases by only 3% for the remaining two years (and it's likely to increase more than that).
  3. Loan rates will remain frozen and not increase.
  4. OP obtains NY Biglaw
  5. OP decides to pay off his loans in 5 years.
  6. OP doesn't dislike biglaw enough to leave for 5 years.
  7. OP is able to stay in biglaw for 5 years and is not laid off.
  8. OP can survive in manhattan off the remaining ~$50k/yr.
  9. I excluded over $1500/yr in fees that NYU separates from its listed tuition (because while at that point we're just nitpicking, it's still $5k more OP has to pay).

dixiecupdrinking wrote:I am a little tired of seeing all these cost calculations that include interest that will be paid nearly a decade from now but seem to completely discount the time value of having all of your living expenses paid in New York City (or anywhere for that matter) for three years. It's disingenuous.

moonman157 wrote:Thanks for the responses everyone! Yeah, I have the cost difference around 70K, without taking into account specific cost differences (like the fact that I would need to buy a car if I went to Cornell and all the expenses that come along with that), as well as some other funds I will be using to help lower the cost of law school. As far as negotiating, do you think it's worth a try? Cornell is my highest offer, so I don't know what to say to them to negotiate, and I already appealed to NYU and nothing has changed since they increased my offer, so how do I go about doing that? Also, I'm a K-JD...will this shut me out of V10 firms? I ask because NYU's placement in V10 firms is a factor I am taking into account, but if I'm at a great disadvantage then should I not even focus on this consideration and treat the schools like the place equally well into NYC biglaw?

ImNoScar wrote:

bowser wrote:why is cornell so bad at AIII clerking? Doesn't really seem to follow.

Not sure. However, they have poured significant resources into it the last few years from what current 3Ls tell me. Judging from antecdotes, we seemed to do pretty well this year. However, we don't match even the lower T14 schools that consistently post good numbers (eg UVA).

gaucholaw wrote:

ImNoScar wrote:

bowser wrote:why is cornell so bad at AIII clerking? Doesn't really seem to follow.

Not sure. However, they have poured significant resources into it the last few years from what current 3Ls tell me. Judging from antecdotes, we seemed to do pretty well this year. However, we don't match even the lower T14 schools that consistently post good numbers (eg UVA).

This is where imho opinion a distinction needs to be made within the lower T-14.... for biglaw I agree that UVA and Cornell are "peer schools" However, when it comes to clerking and getting v-10, its not that GULC NU Cornell and DUKE are bad.... they do relatively well.... its just that in regards to this specific category.... MVPB is just a higher caliber... and for clerking MVPB cannot be seen as peers with the t-14's below it

Sum:
Big LAW: non-HYSCCN schools are peers

Clerking/Academia/special snowflake stuff - there IS a distinction between MVPB and DNCG

BigZuck wrote:

gaucholaw wrote:

ImNoScar wrote:

bowser wrote:why is cornell so bad at AIII clerking? Doesn't really seem to follow.

Not sure. However, they have poured significant resources into it the last few years from what current 3Ls tell me. Judging from antecdotes, we seemed to do pretty well this year. However, we don't match even the lower T14 schools that consistently post good numbers (eg UVA).

This is where imho opinion a distinction needs to be made within the lower T-14.... for biglaw I agree that UVA and Cornell are "peer schools" However, when it comes to clerking and getting v-10, its not that GULC NU Cornell and DUKE are bad.... they do relatively well.... its just that in regards to this specific category.... MVPB is just a higher caliber... and for clerking MVPB cannot be seen as peers with the t-14's below it

Sum:
Big LAW: non-HYSCCN schools are peers

Clerking/Academia/special snowflake stuff - there IS a distinction between MVPB and DNCG

Evidence for the assertion that MVPB are all consistently better than D for clerkship opportunities?

banjo wrote:I think Cornell requires you to take 4 classes + graded LRW each semester of 1L. NYU only requires 3 classes and ungraded LRW. Depending on your work style, that could make a huge difference. Edit: Actually, at NYU you only seem to have two real legal classes second semester, plus an elective and ungraded LRW.

gaucholaw wrote:

ImNoScar wrote:

bowser wrote:why is cornell so bad at AIII clerking? Doesn't really seem to follow.

Not sure. However, they have poured significant resources into it the last few years from what current 3Ls tell me. Judging from antecdotes, we seemed to do pretty well this year. However, we don't match even the lower T14 schools that consistently post good numbers (eg UVA).

This is where imho opinion a distinction needs to be made within the lower T-14.... for biglaw I agree that UVA and Cornell are "peer schools" However, when it comes to clerking and getting v-10, its not that GULC NU Cornell and DUKE are bad.... they do relatively well.... its just that in regards to this specific category.... MVPB is just a higher caliber... and for clerking MVPB cannot be seen as peers with the t-14's below it

Sum:
Big LAW: non-HYSCCN schools are peers

Clerking/Academia/special snowflake stuff - there IS a distinction between MVPB and DNCG

BigZuck wrote: rickgrimes and beachbum never fully stepped up into this role so somebody had to.

But seriously I'm just trying to figure out what some of these distinctions are based on. Because oftentimes it doesn't seem to be reality.

rickgrimes69 wrote: Also, the whole "HYSCCN" thing needs to stop, it has no basis in reality.

banjo wrote:I think Cornell requires you to take 4 classes + graded LRW each semester of 1L. NYU only requires 3 classes and ungraded LRW. Depending on your work style, that could make a huge difference. Edit: Actually, at NYU you only seem to have two real legal classes second semester, plus an elective and ungraded LRW.

gaucholaw wrote:

ImNoScar wrote:

bowser wrote:why is cornell so bad at AIII clerking? Doesn't really seem to follow.

Not sure. However, they have poured significant resources into it the last few years from what current 3Ls tell me. Judging from antecdotes, we seemed to do pretty well this year. However, we don't match even the lower T14 schools that consistently post good numbers (eg UVA).

This is where imho opinion a distinction needs to be made within the lower T-14.... for biglaw I agree that UVA and Cornell are "peer schools" However, when it comes to clerking and getting v-10, its not that GULC NU Cornell and DUKE are bad.... they do relatively well.... its just that in regards to this specific category.... MVPB is just a higher caliber... and for clerking MVPB cannot be seen as peers with the t-14's below it

Sum:
Big LAW: non-HYSCCN schools are peers

Clerking/Academia/special snowflake stuff - there IS a distinction between MVPB and DNCG

Lincoln wrote:

banjo wrote:I think Cornell requires you to take 4 classes + graded LRW each semester of 1L. NYU only requires 3 classes and ungraded LRW. Depending on your work style, that could make a huge difference. Edit: Actually, at NYU you only seem to have two real legal classes second semester, plus an elective and ungraded LRW.

Disclosure: Cornell 3L here.

The above is true. We work a LOT. But the extra semester of civ pro, especially, has certainly come in handy for me, so I wouldn't have wanted to miss out on it. OP, if you wanted PI, I could see NYU being a better choice; Cornell just doesn't place well in PI. For BigLaw, however (even V10), there just isn't a difference worth $70k. (One data point: The ratio of Cornell students to NYU students in my V5 summer class was exactly proportional to the class sizes at each school.) That leaves one question: Is it worth the money for you to live in NYC instead of Ithaca? When answering that question, keep in mind that you will (if that's what you want) spend your 1L and 2L summers in NYC, meaning you'll get some of the benefit, and some of the cost.

moonman157 wrote:You're one of the most optimistic posters on this site, I think. It is that easy to get NYC biglaw, or even V10, from Cornell? My impression was that top 1/3 at NYU had a decent shot but at Cornell you needed to be closer to top 15%.

And location is something I go back and forth on in terms of my performance. Would I do better in NYC because I'd (most likely) be happier, or would I get distracted and not do as well? And Cornell does sound like more work, but everyone has to go through it so I guess it doesn't effect the curve?