HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

What would you do?

HLS
56
34%
Penn
107
66%
 
Total votes: 163

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Emma.
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby Emma. » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:00 am

UtilityMonster wrote:People can basically get away with making imprecise, baseless statements of this sort all they want to.

+
UtilityMonster wrote:Harvard offers benefits in almost every domain. They add up over the course of one's life.

=

:roll:

UtilityMonster wrote:What exactly does "that much more easily" "benefits in almost every domain" mean and can you please explain what allows you to draw this conclusion?

pastapplicant
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby pastapplicant » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:02 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Revolver066 wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:
Revolver066 wrote: Personally, I dont know if Penn is greater than NYU or not, but there is certainly more than enough data to reasonably support that conclusion.


No, there isn't.


:lol:


Yes there is. PM me if you want to talk about it, as it's not a conversation relevant to this thread. It's actually fairly straightforward, though.


Bro, for the last time, you go to TULANE. Focus more on your studies instead of trolling. Are you still that mad that NYU rejected you?

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smaug_
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby smaug_ » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:13 am

Redfactor wrote:Penn isn't going to close any doors for what you want to do. And it's not like if you went to Harvard prestigious clerkships or DOJ offers are going to just drop in your lap. At either school, you will have to do well.

And think about the dark debt cloud that will hover over you throughout school and well into your career. Penn grads in biglaw make the same salaries and have access to the same firms as Harvard grads. As a Penn grad though, you would have 30-50k more money a year during your youth. That is awesome!

Harvard gives confidence in that ability to pay off the debt, no doubt, but you still have to actually do it. The LRAP is awesome but it won't pay a dime when you're at biglaw. That will be your money you could have been pocketing or investing or spending on super sweet jet skis custom painted with flames and skulls!


:lol: This sounds a little silly, but I really think this is the way to look at things. If you want the really prestigious things, you're going to have to kill it and you're better on yourself no matter what. On the pessimistic side, you could struggle to find a job from either Penn or HLS. But, for the majority of grads, the outcomes from HLS or Penn are going to be very very similar. If you're big into the prestige race, yes, HLS might get you to a better ranked firm. But, if you follow the normal path of median grades, biglaw for a bit, then something else, Penn is probably the better investment. You'll avoid the golden handcuffs and be free to explore other opportunities from day one. You'd have money to invest in your retirement, in a home or have fun with. (Probably some combination thereof.) I also think that one intangible that's easily ignored is that your time in school would be less stressful because you wouldn't have that future debt hanging over every exam, every screener and every callback.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:16 am

If you think one school has a "holistic life satisfaction" advantage uncoupled from concrete factors like job placement and debt the you're retarded, unless that term relates to dropping the H-bomb at seedy bars in between sessions of ravaging your own pud.

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sinfiery
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby sinfiery » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:17 am

pastapplicant wrote:Bro, for the last time, you go to TULANE. Focus more on your studies instead of trolling. Are you still that mad that NYU rejected you?


This would never happen to you if you went to Harvard but even a tipsy NYU bro might call you out for being non T6

TooOld4This
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby TooOld4This » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:54 am

The OP has expressed no desire for academia or SCOTUS clerkships. These are the two things that Harvard would give a $100k advantage over.

For employers who care about the prestige of Harvard (non-academic), named scholarships from other top 10 schools are viewed quite favorably. For picking up people in bars, yeah, it doesn't carry any weight.

Harvard does make an appreciable difference in reaching some goals. The OP hasn't expressed an interest in any of them. Harvard also provides a better safety net at the bottom. Full ride at Penn also provides this. If being able to say you graduated from Harvard is worth $100k per year, go for it. If you measure success by the Vault ranking of your firm, again, Harvard would be safer. But, as someone who has been around the block for quite a long time, there aren't that many people I've known that really feel the quality of their lives has been enhanced by collecting gold stars. The ones that "make it" are those that figure out what they are interested in and do that. Sometimes this lines up with prestige, usually it doesn't. And only rarely is long term enjoyment of work enhanced because of the prestige factor.

But it's Harvard isn't a good reason to spend and extra $100k in my book.

UtilityMonster wrote:
TooOld4This wrote:Penn.

Most people, within 3 years of their BigLaw job realize that the things that make them happy in life...

Like having the degree, experience, friends, contacts, prestige, job opportunities from Harvard Law...

TooOld4This wrote:are the ones that occur outside work hours -- and that they have very few of those hours in their lives.

That is absurd. Having a job you enjoy immensely improves your life satisfaction and overall happiness.

TooOld4This wrote:Harvard is not going to get you a civil service job in the government that much more easily than any other schools.

People can basically get away with making imprecise, baseless statements of this sort all they want to. What exactly does "that much more easily" mean and can you please explain what allows you to draw this conclusion?

Harvard offers benefits in almost every domain. They add up over the course of one's life.

TooOld4This wrote:And if you have a named scholarship, you can always list that on your resume. It's basically code for: got into Harvard but was too smart to pay for the "prestige." :D

People get full rides to T14 schools quite often without getting admitted to Harvard. The exceptions are the Hamilton and Rubenstein, although a few have gotten these without being admitted to Harvard. Few if any employers will care what you paid to attend the law school you attended. They will care where you finished in your class and what school you attended, which is much more indicative of future performance. Clients will also not have a clue what the implications of full ride to school X are, they will not care, and good luck telling them or anyone else about your full ride and not coming off as trying way too hard to impress.

bizzybone1313 wrote:If you don't want to be POTUS, a Supreme Court Justice or professor at a T-10 LS, I would attend Penn. An Ivy league law school for close to free is a big deal.

This T-10 distinction is stupid. A HLS degree significantly improves prospects for being a law professor at any law school. The Ivy League distinction is also stupid.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Penn.

In other threads you have opined that Penn is better than NYU, which is baseless and suggests your opinion of Penn may be inflated.

Rlabo wrote:I'm prob gonna be alone on this, but if it were me I'd choose Harvard and never look back.

You're not alone. I think Harvard is actually the less risky option on a holistic life satisfaction basis (rather than a narrow, short-sighted financial analysis), and the school will pay off your debt if you aren't in a lucrative job, anyway.

Revolver066
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby Revolver066 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:36 pm

pastapplicant wrote:Bro, for the last time, you go to TULANE. Focus more on your studies instead of trolling. Are you still that mad that NYU rejected you?


Dude, who gives a shit where he goes? Hes using employment stats to back up his claims, pretty sure the stats are the same no matter what school he goes to.

kpuc
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby kpuc » Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:06 pm

Aren't people forgetting that if you go to Harvard, you'll also have to directly compete with Harvard students? Penn's a great school, but I'm certain that there'd be fewer people there with ambitions to be POTUS, Senator, SC judge, etc.

Redfactor
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby Redfactor » Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:14 pm

Revolver066 wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:Bro, for the last time, you go to TULANE. Focus more on your studies instead of trolling. Are you still that mad that NYU rejected you?


Dude, who gives a shit where he goes? Hes using employment stats to back up his claims, pretty sure the stats are the same no matter what school he goes to.


+1

So somehow a random 0L who's been accepted at Harvard has more perspective than this guy who's actually deep in the law school process?
Last edited by Redfactor on Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Redfactor
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby Redfactor » Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:15 pm

kpuc wrote:Aren't people forgetting that if you go to Harvard, you'll also have to directly compete with Harvard students? Penn's a great school, but I'm certain that there'd be fewer people there with ambitions to be POTUS, Senator, SC judge, etc.


I think you're very much undervaluing the talent that is found within Penn Law.

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Sheffield
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby Sheffield » Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:36 pm

Since I can think of better things to do with $200K then set fire to it, I voted Penn.

pastapplicant
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby pastapplicant » Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:43 pm

Redfactor wrote:
Revolver066 wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:Bro, for the last time, you go to TULANE. Focus more on your studies instead of trolling. Are you still that mad that NYU rejected you?


Dude, who gives a shit where he goes? Hes using employment stats to back up his claims, pretty sure the stats are the same no matter what school he goes to.


+1

So somehow a random 0L who's been accepted at Harvard has more perspective than this guy who's actually deep in the law school process?


lol employment statistics that naive 0Ls like you have no idea how to interpret? how does an 0L accepted to Harvard have anything to do with this? I implied someone who actually attends a school should be an authority about it, not someone who goes to a TTT and just trolls for Penn for the past couple of years. keep relying on that troll. why don't you just go ahead and listen to whatever nonsense spews out of TaipeiMort as well.

Just the fact that there is a thread on HLS v. Penn full ride shows how out of touch you guys are with the market right now and how hiring works across the different areas. It doesn't matter what OP wants to do. between harvard at sticker which is at $220+ and Penn at just COL, the only reasonable answer is Penn. Anyone seriously arguing that Harvard is worth almost a quarter million for a better shot at academia or clerkships has no grasp of basic economics.

Revolver066
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby Revolver066 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:01 pm

pastapplicant wrote:lol employment statistics that naive 0Ls like you have no idea how to interpret? how does an 0L accepted to Harvard have anything to do with this? I implied someone who actually attends a school should be an authority about it, not someone who goes to a TTT and just trolls for Penn for the past couple of years. keep relying on that troll. why don't you just go ahead and listen to whatever nonsense spews out of TaipeiMort as well.


Im a little confused about how 0L's wouldnt be able to interpret data that has Penn has placed 77 percent of students firms with over 100 ppl and fed clerkships. Or how in the same thread, the conservative "underemployment" numbers has Penn at around 15 percent. Again, I'm not saying NYU is better or worse than Penn, and frankly I don't care that much. But how hard is it to understand that over the past 5 years or so (especially the last two), Penn has had objectively better employment outcomes when it comes to biglawl and clerkships? There are a lot of variables to consider (placement, school funded PI jobs, etc), but I think going off objectively desirable employment outcomes like biglaw/clerkships is a pretty good way to go (or at the very least defensible) all things considered.

Revolver066
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby Revolver066 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:03 pm

pastapplicant wrote:Just the fact that there is a thread on HLS v. Penn full ride shows how out of touch you guys are with the market right now and how hiring works across the different areas. It doesn't matter what OP wants to do. between harvard at sticker which is at $220+ and Penn at just COL, the only reasonable answer is Penn. Anyone seriously arguing that Harvard is worth almost a quarter million for a better shot at academia or clerkships has no grasp of basic economics.


For the most part I agree with this though.

Redfactor
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby Redfactor » Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:06 pm

pastapplicant wrote:
Redfactor wrote:
Revolver066 wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:Bro, for the last time, you go to TULANE. Focus more on your studies instead of trolling. Are you still that mad that NYU rejected you?


Dude, who gives a shit where he goes? Hes using employment stats to back up his claims, pretty sure the stats are the same no matter what school he goes to.


+1

So somehow a random 0L who's been accepted at Harvard has more perspective than this guy who's actually deep in the law school process?


lol employment statistics that naive 0Ls like you have no idea how to interpret? how does an 0L accepted to Harvard have anything to do with this? I implied someone who actually attends a school should be an authority about it, not someone who goes to a TTT and just trolls for Penn for the past couple of years. keep relying on that troll. why don't you just go ahead and listen to whatever nonsense spews out of TaipeiMort as well.

Just the fact that there is a thread on HLS v. Penn full ride shows how out of touch you guys are with the market right now and how hiring works across the different areas. It doesn't matter what OP wants to do. between harvard at sticker which is at $220+ and Penn at just COL, the only reasonable answer is Penn. Anyone seriously arguing that Harvard is worth almost a quarter million for a better shot at academia or clerkships has no grasp of basic economics.



The guy who goes to Tulane actually responded to the thread in somewhat of a productive manner. You came into the thread to call him a troll and attempted to discredit his opinion due to the school he attends.

Guy from Tulane didn't derail this thread; you did. Whatever personal issue that you have with this poster doesn't help the OP and doesn't belong in the thread.

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sinfiery
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby sinfiery » Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:22 pm

Revolver066 wrote:
Im a little confused about how 0L's wouldnt be able to interpret data that has Penn has placed 77 percent of students firms with over 100 ppl and fed clerkships. Or how in the same thread, the conservative "underemployment" numbers has Penn at around 15 percent. Again, I'm not saying NYU is better or worse than Penn, and frankly I don't care that much. But how hard is it to understand that over the past 5 years or so (especially the last two), Penn has had objectively better employment outcomes when it comes to biglawl and clerkships? There are a lot of variables to consider (placement, school funded PI jobs, etc), but I think going off objectively desirable employment outcomes like biglaw/clerkships is a pretty good way to go (or at the very least defensible) all things considered.



The data is trash. It's gotten better, and its all we have, but it is not a great source. That is why there will always be grey.

Revolver066
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby Revolver066 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:31 pm

sinfiery wrote:
The data is trash. It's gotten better, and its all we have, but it is not a great source. That is why there will always be grey.


Eh, I think "trash" is too harsh. Incomplete? Sure, but knowing how many people got objectively good outcomes (and PT/unemployed numbers) is pretty useful.

ETA: as evidenced by the fact so many people look forward to the LST numbers and praise the LST folks (as they should)

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sinfiery
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby sinfiery » Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:44 pm

Sorry, I didn't mean in every debate. I meant it is trash in respect to a debate where you are comparing two schools with quite similar but different "almost certainly positive outcomes' (although this is roughly 3,000 jobs+ all being counted as equal) without understanding that there are other categories of law that people may actually venture into (some top applicants at one of these schools indebted 150k to some of these categories) that are completely and absolutey garbage as far as employment data is concerned within every conceivable context I can think of.

I don't think this can be dismissed. Sure, as far as we know, Upenn is better than NYU, but the only merits taken into account venture one to remap the relative ordering of choice to PS CCH NYD..etc, I forget.

Revolver066
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby Revolver066 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:50 pm

sinfiery wrote:Sorry, I didn't mean in every debate. I meant it is trash in respect to a debate where you are comparing two schools with quite similar but different "almost certainly positive outcomes' (although this is roughly 3,000 jobs+ all being counted as equal) without understanding that there are other categories of law that people may actually venture into (some top applicants at one of these schools indebted 150k to some of these categories) that are completely and absolutey garbage as far as employment data is concerned within every conceivable context I can think of.

I don't think this can be dismissed. Sure, as far as we know, Upenn is better than NYU, but the only merits taken into account venture one to remap the relative ordering of choice to PS CCH NYD..etc, I forget.


Oh, I absolutely agree that within schools that are relatively close, the numbers have a lot of randomness to it based on the personality of the student body. Frankly, I think all the mini tiers are pretty stupid. YS probably Harvard (maybe penalized b/c of their massive class size) are above the rest (not 200k above though), and then after that just look at the data and make up one's own mind. Saying NYU is clearly a tier above Penn while Penn/Mich are peers, or Virginia is above Northwestern, etc, makes little sense to me.

kpuc
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby kpuc » Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:55 pm

Redfactor wrote:
kpuc wrote:Aren't people forgetting that if you go to Harvard, you'll also have to directly compete with Harvard students? Penn's a great school, but I'm certain that there'd be fewer people there with ambitions to be POTUS, Senator, SC judge, etc.


I think you're very much undervaluing the talent that is found within Penn Law.


I didn't mean to do it at all. I'm pretty blown away by Penn's employment stats and I think the school is greatly underrated by most people who look down on Philadelphia because there haven't been enough cool movies and TV shows set in that city.

But I think that it's safe to say that the crazy ambitious people, the ones who were scrutinizing their UG GPA from day 1 of their freshman year, are more likely to be at Harvard than at Penn.

20141023
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby 20141023 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:55 pm

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sinfiery
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby sinfiery » Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:57 pm

Agreed

Revolver066
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby Revolver066 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:05 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:One other thing that isn't often mentioned is the ability of schools like Harvard to place abroad. I want to work at the Tokyo office of a top law firm in the future, and when I go to those firms' websites a large number of recent associates are Harvard grads; all of the other lesser T14 each comprise a smaller portion of those positions, and those who do were usually on law review. Accordingly, I think that one doesn't have to do as well once they're in Harvard to reach a very desirable outcome in comparison to those who attend other top non-HYS schools. I also think that HLS, even more than YS, is a powerhouse overseas (mainly because of its famous undergraduate program).


Yea I think thats a good point, and I can buy that argument. But again, it's a anecdote from a 0L (no offense) about overseas hiring. We dont know what the grades of those Harvard grads were, and we (or I guess I should say I) dont know how much of a boost a Harvard grad is given. I'd certainly buy the fact it COULD be big, but maybe its not. Also, I'm not sure how many people are gunning for overseas jobs like yourself, maybe there is a lot.

Again, when it comes down to it there's a lot of gray. But I certainly wouldn't pay 200k for a potential overseas boost.

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Sheffield
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby Sheffield » Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:44 pm

kpuc wrote: I'm pretty blown away by Penn's employment stats and I think the school is greatly underrated by most people who look down on Philadelphia because there haven't been enough cool movies and TV shows set in that city.


IMO to the average lay person Penn, NYU, Chicago and Columbia are off their radar, in part because of sports and because they are rarely highlighted on TV or in the movies. Even in the current TV show “Body of Proof,” based in Philly, Penn isn’t ever mentioned. In Penn's case there is the added confusion regarding Penn State....

--ImageRemoved--

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Lincoln
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Re: HLS Sticker or Penn Full Ride

Postby Lincoln » Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:08 pm

Do you want to make an extra $3,000+ per month for the first 10 years of your career? If so, then Penn.




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