Emory Woodruff Scholarship v. Lower T-14

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which is the better option?

Poll ended at Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:07 pm

Woodruff
26
67%
Lower T-14
13
33%
 
Total votes: 39

crystalball
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:52 pm

Re: Emory Woodruff Scholarship v. Lower T-14

Postby crystalball » Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:28 pm

Ti Malice wrote:
crystalball wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
crystalball wrote:Thanks for your input, everyone. I really appreciate it. In response to your questions:

Which lower T14 and what exact amount of merit aid?
Michigan and Georgetown and also considering Vanderbilt and Texas

Are those T14 scholarships $30K per year or in total?
Total

Would you be living on your own in Atlanta?
Yes

Are there any schools where your app is still under review? If so, which ones?
Yes: NYU, Columbia, Northwestern, Cornell

What are your career goals if not biglaw?
Unsure. Maybe employment or family law. Still finding it hard to let go of the idea of producing legal scholarship or teaching someday. Call me crazy, but I'll do what I can to still go for it...

Since you're from the South, is that lower T14 Duke?
I’m actually not from the South, I just have ties there. I also have ties in the North.


Very helpful. I'm surprised that no T14 is offering you more than $10K per year. I don't know the average numbers profile of Woodruff recipients, but I thought the stats were up there. I doubt Michigan or GULC would negotiate with a Woodruff offer, but I suppose you could try. As it stands, Emory for only COL sounds like the more attractive option. Others may differ, but paying either sticker or near sticker at Michigan or GULC is a scary thought to me.

If you accept the Woodruff, are you required to withdraw from the schools where you've already been accepted?


I only applied to a few t-14 schools because I care more about programs compatible with my interests than rankings, at least to an extent (attracted to GULC's plan B curriculum and Michigan's Program in Race, Law & History). While my numbers are pretty solid, there's no real indication of need anywhere on my application and it is my personal opinion that my resume speaks much more to my abilities than my numbers. Unfortunately, US News Rankings doesn't take any "soft" factors into account and thus extremely generous scholarship offers from t-14 schools have not been coming in droves...

And yes, I would be required to withdraw all decisions (acceptances and wait lists) as well as pending applications.


First things first, Emory cannot require you to withdraw pending applications as a condition of accepting the Woodruff, regardless of what they say. They can require you to withdraw apps from schools to which you've been accepted, but that's it. See: http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... rency.aspx.

Understood on the scholarships. It looks like the Woodruff program actually takes into account something beyond only straight numbers, which is refreshing.

Good luck on your other applications.


Thanks for the tip. I do want to begin my legal career in an ethical manner though and, even if it's not technically breaking the rules, something about not actually withdrawing all my applications when asked would feel pretty shady to me.

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smaug_
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Re: Emory Woodruff Scholarship v. Lower T-14

Postby smaug_ » Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:38 pm

Based on what's been posted here, I'd probably take the Woodruff. I think Emory is still a bigger gamble in terms finding good employment, but if you're not aiming directly at biglaw, the fact that you can graduate with minimal debt is huge. If you can't convince Duke or somewhere else to raise your offer significantly, I think Emory might be an OK choice.

Ti Malice
Posts: 1955
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:55 am

Re: Emory Woodruff Scholarship v. Lower T-14

Postby Ti Malice » Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:47 pm

crystalball wrote:Thanks for the tip. I do want to begin my legal career in an ethical manner though and, even if it's not technically breaking the rules, something about not actually withdrawing all my applications when asked would feel pretty shady to me.


That's a very noble sentiment, but it's perfectly ethical for you to exercise your rights under the LSAC guidelines to which the school has agreed, and it's correspondingly unethical for Emory to agree to adhere to a set of guidelines and then attempt to pressure you to surrender the rights those same rules provide you. But it's your choice, of course. (By the way, Emory has no way of knowing that you have or have not complied with their unethical demand -- which might actually be phrased as a "request," meaning both that they technically have not broken the rule and that they are not actually demanding that you withdraw all apps.)

ze2151
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:51 pm

Re: Emory Woodruff Scholarship v. Lower T-14

Postby ze2151 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:32 am

Ti Malice wrote:
crystalball wrote:Thanks for the tip. I do want to begin my legal career in an ethical manner though and, even if it's not technically breaking the rules, something about not actually withdrawing all my applications when asked would feel pretty shady to me.


That's a very noble sentiment, but it's perfectly ethical for you to exercise your rights under the LSAC guidelines to which the school has agreed, and it's correspondingly unethical for Emory to agree to adhere to a set of guidelines and then attempt to pressure you to surrender the rights those same rules provide you. But it's your choice, of course. (By the way, Emory has no way of knowing that you have or have not complied with their unethical demand -- which might actually be phrased as a "request," meaning both that they technically have not broken the rule and that they are not actually demanding that you withdraw all apps.)



Whoa, whoa, whoa. This needs to be corrected. I am a current Woodruff Fellow, and I can tell you firsthand, Emory does NOT ask that an applicant withdraw pending apps to other schools. It is against the rules, and Ethan goes through it with each candidate one-on-one prior to his/her interview. If op got a different impression, then let me correct that as well. Emory can't ask, and you wouldn't have to comply if it did. And Emory did not ask. That would be unethical, inappropriate, overuse of unequal bargaining power, whatever your instincts are telling you it would be.

Had to stick up for my school there.

If any of you have other questions about the program, I'm here to answer them, I guess since I'm outed as a current fellow there's no more need for the cloak and dagger pm's :D

crystalball
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:52 pm

Re: Emory Woodruff Scholarship v. Lower T-14

Postby crystalball » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:40 am

ze2151 wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
crystalball wrote:Thanks for the tip. I do want to begin my legal career in an ethical manner though and, even if it's not technically breaking the rules, something about not actually withdrawing all my applications when asked would feel pretty shady to me.


That's a very noble sentiment, but it's perfectly ethical for you to exercise your rights under the LSAC guidelines to which the school has agreed, and it's correspondingly unethical for Emory to agree to adhere to a set of guidelines and then attempt to pressure you to surrender the rights those same rules provide you. But it's your choice, of course. (By the way, Emory has no way of knowing that you have or have not complied with their unethical demand -- which might actually be phrased as a "request," meaning both that they technically have not broken the rule and that they are not actually demanding that you withdraw all apps.)



Whoa, whoa, whoa. This needs to be corrected. I am a current Woodruff Fellow, and I can tell you firsthand, Emory does NOT ask that an applicant withdraw pending apps to other schools. It is against the rules, and Ethan goes through it with each candidate one-on-one prior to his/her interview. If op got a different impression, then let me correct that as well. Emory can't ask, and you wouldn't have to comply if it did. And Emory did not ask. That would be unethical, inappropriate, overuse of unequal bargaining power, whatever your instincts are telling you it would be.

Had to stick up for my school there.

If any of you have other questions about the program, I'm here to answer them, I guess since I'm outed as a current fellow there's no more need for the cloak and dagger pm's :D


To be honest, the interview process was sort of a blur. It was a fun but long and nerve wrecking weekend and it's easily possible I misunderstood what Ethan said. Thank you for clearing it up for me.

ze2151
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:51 pm

Re: Emory Woodruff Scholarship v. Lower T-14

Postby ze2151 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:41 am

And TI Malice, it is "requested" that when you accept a Woodruff Fellowship you withdraw elsewhere... that's sort of de rigeur for accepting anything. but the rules are clear, Ethan is well versed in them, and he clearly delineates what he cannot ask for. In my interview process I never felt pressured to do anything. Emory knows the fellowship is a tremendous privilege a lot of people want. If I don't want it, that's ok, they just want to know so they can give it to the next candidate up.

I just don't want anyone on this board to think Ethan's office is out to screw anyone or prevent someone from making the best decision for him/her. That is not in Ethan's character.

BigZuck
Posts: 10859
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Emory Woodruff Scholarship v. Lower T-14

Postby BigZuck » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:43 am

ze2151 wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
crystalball wrote:Thanks for the tip. I do want to begin my legal career in an ethical manner though and, even if it's not technically breaking the rules, something about not actually withdrawing all my applications when asked would feel pretty shady to me.


That's a very noble sentiment, but it's perfectly ethical for you to exercise your rights under the LSAC guidelines to which the school has agreed, and it's correspondingly unethical for Emory to agree to adhere to a set of guidelines and then attempt to pressure you to surrender the rights those same rules provide you. But it's your choice, of course. (By the way, Emory has no way of knowing that you have or have not complied with their unethical demand -- which might actually be phrased as a "request," meaning both that they technically have not broken the rule and that they are not actually demanding that you withdraw all apps.)



Whoa, whoa, whoa. This needs to be corrected. I am a current Woodruff Fellow, and I can tell you firsthand, Emory does NOT ask that an applicant withdraw pending apps to other schools. It is against the rules, and Ethan goes through it with each candidate one-on-one prior to his/her interview. If op got a different impression, then let me correct that as well. Emory can't ask, and you wouldn't have to comply if it did. And Emory did not ask. That would be unethical, inappropriate, overuse of unequal bargaining power, whatever your instincts are telling you it would be.

Had to stick up for my school there.

If any of you have other questions about the program, I'm here to answer them, I guess since I'm outed as a current fellow there's no more need for the cloak and dagger pm's :D


Can you confirm that the OP would get preferential treatment and therefore that should tip the scales toward Emory? I'm assuming that the school would do everything possible to make sure their Woodys don't slip through the cracks like a lot of their normal students.

crystalball
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:52 pm

Re: Emory Woodruff Scholarship v. Lower T-14

Postby crystalball » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:45 am

ze2151 wrote:And TI Malice, it is "requested" that when you accept a Woodruff Fellowship you withdraw elsewhere... that's sort of de rigeur for accepting anything. but the rules are clear, Ethan is well versed in them, and he clearly delineates what he cannot ask for. In my interview process I never felt pressured to do anything. Emory knows the fellowship is a tremendous privilege a lot of people want. If I don't want it, that's ok, they just want to know so they can give it to the next candidate up.

I just don't want anyone on this board to think Ethan's office is out to screw anyone or prevent someone from making the best decision for him/her. That is not in Ethan's character.


Ethan was wonderful and I would never want anyone to think otherwise based on my misunderstanding. I would have been willing to withdraw my applications if those were the rules, but I am not well-versed in those rules and did not realize that this was unnecessary. I'm sure that Ethan never explicitly stated that I needed to withdraw my pending applications then and I merely misinterpreted what was said post-interview.

ze2151
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:51 pm

Re: Emory Woodruff Scholarship v. Lower T-14

Postby ze2151 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:50 am

BigZuck wrote:Can you confirm that the OP would get preferential treatment and therefore that should tip the scales toward Emory? I'm assuming that the school would do everything possible to make sure their Woodys don't slip through the cracks like a lot of their normal students.


I don't know about preferential treatment, but I know Emory has kept every single promise it made to me from the time I committed. I am as satisfied with my choice now as I was when I made it.

I'm sure the school would work to get its fellows what they want, but normally fellows have a pretty good handle on what they want to do and how they plan to do it. The fellowship self-selects for that a little. So having it gives me a little more credibility when I cold-email a partner at firm X, and maybe I get a lunch when another classmate wouldn't. I don't really know. I know how my experience has gone, and from where I'm sitting, the fellowship has opened up a lot of doors.




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