U Chicago vs. Berkeley

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untar614
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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby untar614 » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:24 pm

Borg wrote:
RhymesLikeDimes wrote:In terms of biglaw, CCN and HYS aren't that far apart (especially Columbia). But, if you are serious about academia, then you really do need to go to HYS.


Agree with this completely regarding academia. Also, it's worth mentioning that I was actually pretty surprised at Chicago's numbers in an article I saw recently. Seems that Columbia outpaces both Chicago and NYU by a more substantial margin than I thought. Here's a link:

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/03/which-la ... lite-jobs/


From the article:
“I’m so surprised that this Top 10 list is comprised of T14 law schools,” said no one ever. (Actually, the Cooley Law grad who thought his school was the second-best in the country probably said that, so our apologies to that dude — he was likely blissfully unaware of the Supreme Court’s existence, too.)


lol, nice

solucky
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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby solucky » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:45 pm

To re-emphasize: I want to practice in California (particularly in SF/Palo Alto) - would Berkeley be a much bigger risk than Chicago? (in terms of long-term prestige) Or would it be the other way around in that scenario? (Chicago may not be able to place me in CA markets or have enough connections here?)

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untar614
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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby untar614 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:49 pm

you shouldn't have to go to berk at sticker. retake for 172+, then go all out on Stanford. If you don't get S, maybe H or Y, or get $$ at another T14.

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boblawlob
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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby boblawlob » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:58 pm

Why is everyone saying to retake?

The choice is pretty clear to me: UChi.


IMO, you don't retake the LSAT once you've gotten an acceptance into a T6 and especially when your parents are footing the bill.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=ca
UChi has the best employment score in California so there should be 0 problem with OP going back to CA to work. In regards to OP's academia wishes, it's something that is still in the distant future and still would not be a given if OP went to HYS. If OP worked hard at UChi and made a name in biglaw, there's no doubt OP couldn't get academia as well.

Everyone is telling OP to retake for HYS. What if OP retakes and gets only a 167, for example? HYS probably would be out and UChi might not want OP again after OP turned them down already.

TLS means well but 110% OP should take UChi.

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:13 pm

boblawlob wrote:Why is everyone saying to retake?

The choice is pretty clear to me: UChi.


IMO, you don't retake the LSAT once you've gotten an acceptance into a T6 and especially when your parents are footing the bill.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=ca
UChi has the best employment score in California so there should be 0 problem with OP going back to CA to work. In regards to OP's academia wishes, it's something that is still in the distant future and still would not be a given if OP went to HYS. If OP worked hard at UChi and made a name in biglaw, there's no doubt OP couldn't get academia as well.

Everyone is telling OP to retake for HYS. What if OP retakes and gets only a 167, for example? HYS probably would be out and UChi might not want OP again after OP turned them down already.

TLS means well but 110% OP should take UChi.

Sorry but this is awful advice if we are going to take the OP at his or her word. OP sounds like the rare person who will be a shoo-in for Stanford or Harvard next year if it's true that they underperformed by 5 points or so, and will have way better luck with these specific career goals. There is absolutely zero downside (Chicago is not going to get all sad about it and reject them next year, that is ridiculous).

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boblawlob
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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby boblawlob » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:26 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
boblawlob wrote:Why is everyone saying to retake?

The choice is pretty clear to me: UChi.


IMO, you don't retake the LSAT once you've gotten an acceptance into a T6 and especially when your parents are footing the bill.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=ca
UChi has the best employment score in California so there should be 0 problem with OP going back to CA to work. In regards to OP's academia wishes, it's something that is still in the distant future and still would not be a given if OP went to HYS. If OP worked hard at UChi and made a name in biglaw, there's no doubt OP couldn't get academia as well.

Everyone is telling OP to retake for HYS. What if OP retakes and gets only a 167, for example? HYS probably would be out and UChi might not want OP again after OP turned them down already.

TLS means well but 110% OP should take UChi.

Sorry but this is awful advice if we are going to take the OP at his or her word. OP sounds like the rare person who will be a shoo-in for Stanford or Harvard next year if it's true that they underperformed by 5 points or so, and will have way better luck with these specific career goals. There is absolutely zero downside (Chicago is not going to get all sad about it and reject them next year, that is ridiculous).


I don't doubt that, but that's if we take OP's word and assume OP hits 170. But there's so many what ifs and it seems like OP has been at the LSAT since summer 2010.

Unless OP has a job that OP enjoys that pays 45k+ (just a rough number), I'd suggest OP go to law school now. If OP wants that HYS name, then retake. But I don't see going to UChi being a significant hindrance on OP's academia hopes.

If OP wants to do academia and 100% wants to go to Berkeley, they have the JSP program over there that basically grants you a phd in legal studies so you can be a legal professor. Having said that, I'd take UChi over Berkeley.

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:59 pm

boblawlob wrote:Unless OP has a job that OP enjoys that pays 45k+ (just a rough number), I'd suggest OP go to law school now. If OP wants that HYS name, then retake. But I don't see going to UChi being a significant hindrance on OP's academia hopes.

You should, because it is.

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby solucky » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:04 pm

I sincerely appreciate all of the insights. TLS is a lifesaver for many reasons, but also has made me very paranoid that law school is HYS or bust.

My resume (significant leadership) and LORs are very strong, especially compared to the 3.9/171 peers I know that have gotten into H this cycle. Both parents are high school drop outs, so I think that does have a little pull. Also first in immediate and extended family to attend graduate/professional school.

If the application numbers remain low, I am confident that with a 170+ I would at least get H (as H emphasizes numbers and it has a much bigger class than S or Y). I didn't even apply to Y this cycle because I knew my LSAT was too low, although now hearing about people that get WL/dinged at S and H but get into Y, I maybe should have.

The problem with this is that (1) everyone around me, I mean everyone, is unsupportive of a retake and (2) if I don't score 168+ then I basically spent the months before starting 1L studying intensely and feeling down if I don't improve. I think I am more worried about the mental letdown of not scoring well in June posing a huge risk for my mindset prior to the hardest year of law school.

ANOTHER OPTION: I am currently in third-round interviews for a legal assistant position with a reputable tech company (think Yahoo!/Google/Microsoft), and if I land the job, I'm looking at $60k plus $5-8K bonus. In this case, I think the obvious option is to let Chicago and Berkeley know I am not enrolling this fall so I can save up and gain WE before law school. Re-take, then re-apply. I would re-take October. I think I'm cutting it close with June because I have two months, plus I'm going out of town for a week. This way I have ample time to prepare and I would apply early (by late October). This cycle I applied mid- to late Jan (stupid, I know).

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:48 pm

solucky wrote:TLS is a lifesaver for many reasons, but also has made me very paranoid that law school is HYS or bust.

It's most definitely not, but you're in the unusual position of having very lofty aspirations and also having a realistic shot at going to HYS with a minimal amount of time and effort, which will help you achieve your goals. If you just said screw it and went to Chicago or Berkeley, you would certainly be better off than 99% of law students, and it wouldn't ruin your life. To the contrary, you'd have a very good chance at having a very nice career. But if you have a shot at Stanford, and you want to do something with your career that Stanford is likely to help you with, then why the hell would you settle?

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby Pope Francis » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:11 pm

solucky wrote:I sincerely appreciate all of the insights. TLS is a lifesaver for many reasons, but also has made me very paranoid that law school is HYS or bust.

My resume (significant leadership) and LORs are very strong, especially compared to the 3.9/171 peers I know that have gotten into H this cycle. Both parents are high school drop outs, so I think that does have a little pull. Also first in immediate and extended family to attend graduate/professional school.

If the application numbers remain low, I am confident that with a 170+ I would at least get H (as H emphasizes numbers and it has a much bigger class than S or Y). I didn't even apply to Y this cycle because I knew my LSAT was too low, although now hearing about people that get WL/dinged at S and H but get into Y, I maybe should have.

The problem with this is that (1) everyone around me, I mean everyone, is unsupportive of a retake and (2) if I don't score 168+ then I basically spent the months before starting 1L studying intensely and feeling down if I don't improve. I think I am more worried about the mental letdown of not scoring well in June posing a huge risk for my mindset prior to the hardest year of law school.

ANOTHER OPTION: I am currently in third-round interviews for a legal assistant position with a reputable tech company (think Yahoo!/Google/Microsoft), and if I land the job, I'm looking at $60k plus $5-8K bonus. In this case, I think the obvious option is to let Chicago and Berkeley know I am not enrolling this fall so I can save up and gain WE before law school. Re-take, then re-apply. I would re-take October. I think I'm cutting it close with June because I have two months, plus I'm going out of town for a week. This way I have ample time to prepare and I would apply early (by late October). This cycle I applied mid- to late Jan (stupid, I know).


I honestly think you did so well because of first bolded. I think Yale would really like someone like you if you brought that LSAT up (and maybe even now, see second bolded). Assuming you are getting a huge boost, then 168+ will likely help, a lot. Otherwise, please score at least a 171/2 on a timed practice test before turning down what is essentially a free ride at Chicago. In general, I can't imagine it would be particularly smart to turn down Chi considering how low your LSAT is (assuming you don't realistically have a shot at bringing it above a 168.) If you have a job to fall back on, though, maybe taking a year off would be the best option - assuming you will actually do better on the LSAT.

I love how people here think that Chicago doesn't place in academia anymore based on the fact that their numbers have dropped. A decent amount of people who end up in Academia clerk first, so I can't see how class of 2012/3 numbers would really indicate much/anything.

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby solucky » Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:38 pm

Pope Francis wrote:
solucky wrote: Both parents are high school drop outs, so I think that does have a little pull.


I've been told that first generation high school graduate status gives a negligible boost, but because numbers are down this cycle, my low LSAT (165) is compensated by (1) my high GPA (4.02) and (2) the fact that I'm a first generation high school graduate.

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby Doorkeeper » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:55 pm

Bar none, if you want academia in the near to mid-term then you have to retake for HYS. I cannot emphasize this enough.

This being said, if you just want to practice in CA, then both of these options are fine and pick the place you like more.

You need to make the decision right now how much you want to be an academic in the next 10 years. It's that simple. If it's your primary goal in the next 10 years, then retake for HYS. If you think it would be nice to teach at some point in your career but your main goal is to find a job in CA, then take Chicago.

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby solucky » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:55 am

Doorkeeper wrote:Bar none, if you want academia in the near to mid-term then you have to retake for HYS. I cannot emphasize this enough.

This being said, if you just want to practice in CA, then both of these options are fine and pick the place you like more.

You need to make the decision right now how much you want to be an academic in the next 10 years. It's that simple. If it's your primary goal in the next 10 years, then retake for HYS. If you think it would be nice to teach at some point in your career but your main goal is to find a job in CA, then take Chicago.


I am leaning towards the bolded above.

Also I did receive $15k from Chicago in merit aid ($5k per year). This was after I sent in UCLA and USC offers. Any tips on trying to get the aid upped to $30k?

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby solucky » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:23 pm

Also, since around 20 Rubensteins are awarded to Chicago students this year, is it general knowledge that these students tend to be the top 20 students at the school?

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby Emma. » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:27 pm

solucky wrote:Also, since around 20 Rubensteins are awarded to Chicago students this year, is it general knowledge that these students tend to be the top 20 students at the school?


Certainly not the top 20 students, but I believe they have tended to do pretty well. Chicago has a strong norm against talking about grades, and it isn't like the kids with Rubenstein scholarships wear a sign around their necks telling everyone they are attending for free. Also, the current 2L class would be the only data point, since they are the first class with Rubenstein scholars, and the 1L class have only received 2 grades so far.

IMO you shouldn't be worry that because there are 20 kids with those scholarships, you have no chance of placing in the top 10%.

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby Ave » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:32 pm

Retake. Explain to your parents.

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby Doorkeeper » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:09 pm

solucky wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:Bar none, if you want academia in the near to mid-term then you have to retake for HYS. I cannot emphasize this enough.

This being said, if you just want to practice in CA, then both of these options are fine and pick the place you like more.

You need to make the decision right now how much you want to be an academic in the next 10 years. It's that simple. If it's your primary goal in the next 10 years, then retake for HYS. If you think it would be nice to teach at some point in your career but your main goal is to find a job in CA, then take Chicago.


I am leaning towards the bolded above.

Well then either go to Chicago or retake and reapply to get more scholarship money next cycle.

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby Elston Gunn » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:09 pm

solucky wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:Bar none, if you want academia in the near to mid-term then you have to retake for HYS. I cannot emphasize this enough.

This being said, if you just want to practice in CA, then both of these options are fine and pick the place you like more.

You need to make the decision right now how much you want to be an academic in the next 10 years. It's that simple. If it's your primary goal in the next 10 years, then retake for HYS. If you think it would be nice to teach at some point in your career but your main goal is to find a job in CA, then take Chicago.


I am leaning towards the bolded above.

Also I did receive $15k from Chicago in merit aid ($5k per year). This was after I sent in UCLA and USC offers. Any tips on trying to get the aid upped to $30k?


You should still retake and go to Harvard, but it wouldn't be insane to just go to whichever of Berkeley or Chicago you prefer.

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby SemperLegal » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:17 pm

boblawlob wrote:Why is everyone saying to retake?

The choice is pretty clear to me: UChi.


IMO, you don't retake the LSAT once you've gotten an acceptance into a T6 and especially when your parents are footing the bill.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=ca
UChi has the best employment score in California so there should be 0 problem with OP going back to CA to work. In regards to OP's academia wishes, it's something that is still in the distant future and still would not be a given if OP went to HYS. If OP worked hard at UChi and made a name in biglaw, there's no doubt OP couldn't get academia as well.

Everyone is telling OP to retake for HYS. What if OP retakes and gets only a 167, for example? HYS probably would be out and UChi might not want OP again after OP turned them down already.

TLS means well but 110% OP should take UChi.



You misread the link. Chi has a 13% CA placement and B has 58%. The amount of CA placement is under the school's name, the numbers in the grid are overall employment rates (very counterintuitive based on the filters you put in).

However, I agree that B is not even in the running. Its either Chi or retake.

FWIW, I'm thinking that you should take the T6 and run.

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby solucky » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:17 pm

Thank you for all of your insights. After attending Chicago's ASW, although I was super impressed by its academic offerings, faculty, and employment statistics, I just can't see myself fitting in with the fellow students. Quality of life is as important to me as the professional benefits of law school. I would be so blessed if I somehow got into SLS or HLS as I'm still waiting to hear back, although I'm not holding my breath for either of those (not a huge fan of YLS for personal reasons and didn't apply). Transferring from Berkeley seems like a crapshoot (as the entire process is a black box).

I'm 80% set on re-taking. Starting to study in the next few weeks for October. I'll have applications done and submit once I get the October score. I'm not one to freeze under pressure, I just didn't adequately prep the first time (for some reason, couldn't focus and didn't care).

If I did this, I would only re-apply to HSCCN and Berkeley, and maybe consider applying to Y. Since I submitted 3-4 LORs for each application, I don't really have any new ones I could earn to submit in the next 6 months. In terms of Personal Statement, I am considering re-submitting my old PS as a diversity statement and writing a new personal statement based on a different side of me. Would this be a good strategy? Would it be "okay" to submit my current PS as my PS in the fall? Would I need to write an LSAT addendum? With a 170+ are any of HSCCN guaranteed? (4.02 GPA, strong softs, full-time WE for 15ish months before matriculation)

My only major concern is re-applying and how I will spin it in my favor. I'm also afraid Berkeley and/or Chicago would WL or reject me because I plan to re-apply with a significantly higher LSAT score, or will it be assumed that I may have done so for merit aid? I regret applying to H/S this cycle, but c'est la vie.

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby Micdiddy » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:37 pm

solucky wrote:I just can't see myself fitting in with the fellow students.


Really? This is what swayed your decision? I mean, all the people I know going to Chi are despicable human beings for sure, but I highly doubt there's much variation between those guys and any other t6 (though, I could of course be wrong, I don't know a single person going to Yale, but still this seems like a weird final straw).

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby WokeUpInACar » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:04 pm

solucky wrote:Thank you for all of your insights. After attending Chicago's ASW, although I was super impressed by its academic offerings, faculty, and employment statistics, I just can't see myself fitting in with the fellow students. Quality of life is as important to me as the professional benefits of law school. I would be so blessed if I somehow got into SLS or HLS as I'm still waiting to hear back, although I'm not holding my breath for either of those (not a huge fan of YLS for personal reasons and didn't apply). Transferring from Berkeley seems like a crapshoot (as the entire process is a black box).

I'm 80% set on re-taking. Starting to study in the next few weeks for October. I'll have applications done and submit once I get the October score. I'm not one to freeze under pressure, I just didn't adequately prep the first time (for some reason, couldn't focus and didn't care).

If I did this, I would only re-apply to HSCCN and Berkeley, and maybe consider applying to Y. Since I submitted 3-4 LORs for each application, I don't really have any new ones I could earn to submit in the next 6 months. In terms of Personal Statement, I am considering re-submitting my old PS as a diversity statement and writing a new personal statement based on a different side of me. Would this be a good strategy? Would it be "okay" to submit my current PS as my PS in the fall? Would I need to write an LSAT addendum? With a 170+ are any of HSCCN guaranteed? (4.02 GPA, strong softs, full-time WE for 15ish months before matriculation)

My only major concern is re-applying and how I will spin it in my favor. I'm also afraid Berkeley and/or Chicago would WL or reject me because I plan to re-apply with a significantly higher LSAT score, or will it be assumed that I may have done so for merit aid? I regret applying to H/S this cycle, but c'est la vie.

Dude the law schools aren't going to hold a grudge or anything. Applying this cycle will have almost zero effect on your next cycle. A 170/4.0 will likely get you into all of CCN, but you can probably do better. If you didn't adequately prepare for the LSAT you are more than capable of 172+, so don't limit yourself.

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby solucky » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:07 pm

The students were definitely humble and impressive, but the programs and student body seemed overtly conservative. I would ideally love to attend SLS and if I have a shot, I feel like I should exhaust all my options (especially since costs would be the same).

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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby Emma. » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:12 pm

solucky wrote:The students were definitely humble and impressive, but the programs and student body seemed overtly conservative. I would ideally love to attend SLS and if I have a shot, I feel like I should exhaust all my options (especially since costs would be the same).


You should definitely retake, but weird that you found the student body to be "overtly conservative" since significantly more than half of us are on the progressive side.
Last edited by Emma. on Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

0L Hoping for 1
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Re: U Chicago vs. Berkeley

Postby 0L Hoping for 1 » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:27 pm

solucky wrote:The students were definitely humble and impressive, but the programs and student body seemed overtly conservative. I would ideally love to attend SLS and if I have a shot, I feel like I should exhaust all my options (especially since costs would be the same).


As a conservative at UChicago, this makes me laugh. The student body is definitely not a majority conservative. Not taking any position on whether you should retake or not, but the subset of students you met at ASW were not representative of the class as a whole if you met a lot of "overtly" conservative students.




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