How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Creighton at 40k or UGA/SMU/Tulane at 100k+?

Creighton University, #119, Full Tuition/Fees/Stipend (40k COA)
21
33%
University of Georgia. #34, In-State Tuition (100k COA)
25
39%
Southern Methodist University, #48, 17k (120k COA)
8
13%
Tulane University, #48, 28k (105k COA)
9
14%
ETC (KU/Mizzou/UNL/LSU)
1
2%
 
Total votes: 64

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ArchieHicox
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How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby ArchieHicox » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:55 am

I'm still waiting on a bunch of schools (late applicant) but guessing off of LSN data from this year and past and my cycle so far these are my options. While I appreciate the re-take sentiment, I've already used all 3 LSAT attempts. Also I have a low GPA, that cannot be changed. Stats are in my profile (163 LSAT, 2.9ish GPA). Also, I am going to Law School in Fall 2013.

Living expenses are constant 42k / 3 years throughout. Maybe need to adjust for some places, but for ease of calculation that is what I'm going off. I have a new car that is paid for and wouldn't have any expenses on that front. COA # accounts for tuition increases but does not include interest.

Creighton University, Omaha, TTT. Full Tuition & Stipend. Benefits is obviously $$$. Negatives are its not the best law school, facilities are lacking, rankings, its in Omaha (which I am from... but I think I would rather live elsewhere). Estimated COA = 40k

Nebraska/Mizzou/KU - All effectively in-state tuition. Respectable enough in the specific regions. Tier Two. After accounting for living expenses Estimate COA = ~ 90-100k

Tulane - Higher ranked, some placement into TX/NY, 28k Year Scholarship... Estimated COA is 105k

LSU - Similarly ranked to Mizzou/UNL/KU but with better employment numbers. 3/4 Tuition with Top 33% stipulation. Estimated COA is 75k

University of Georgia - Applied late and still waiting, but people at my numbers (and lower) at LSN have been accepted with In-State tuition. Much stronger school in terms of rankings, bar passage, quality employment (100+ Firms and Fed Clerkships). Access to Atlanta. COA would be (assuming in-state waiver) about 100k.

Southern Methodist University - Still awaiting, but no one at my LSAT range has been rejected and 162/2.8s have been getting 17k a year. So assuming I am accepted, and get the same 17k (I have been doing better than my $$$s in comparison to people at Tulane/LSU/Creighton but I'm projecting conservatively)... COA would be ~120k. SMU has much better quality employment numbers than Mizzou/LSU/Nebraska/KU/Creighton and access to a huge market and in a place I'd like to live in.

Waitlisted at Wake Forest and still need to hear back from IU-Bloomington, Oklahoma, and Illinois.

At minimum, debt is going to be ~40k. And on the high end it would be in the range of 105-120k.

I'm feeling some pressure to take the low cost option.... Creighton but I'm afraid it would limit me in the future.

Is Georgia, SMU, or Tulane worth 70-80k more than Creighton?

ETA:

My primary concern with Creighton is there is so little margin for error. If you are in the Top 10% at Creighton, it should work out really well. But if you aren't..... Some of it is also that Creighton really seems to accept almost anyone and I don't know if that is an environment that I want to be in.

At SMU and UGA, it seems like if you are in the top 25% you should do well. Well being having a full-time job at a firm of 100+ employees or a Federal Clerkship. The starting pay is also much higher than Nebraska. SMU being in Texas has some tax benefits. Both Atlanta and Dallas are more desirable of markets to me than Omaha. SMU and UGA are both regional too though, and Tulane is maybe not so regional but the employment numbers are not ahmazing.

Also there are no stipulations on the Creighton Scholarship and the Tulane Scholarship is renewable at 3.0 (Top 70%)... 83% of people kept the scholarships. Its not no stipulations but its relatively easy to renew.
Last edited by ArchieHicox on Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:22 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:13 am

Where are you from and where do you have significant ties

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby ArchieHicox » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:17 am

I'm from Omaha and I went to undergrad in St. Louis. So those are my "ties".

Omaha is okay, but I think I'd like to live elsewhere and going to Creighton absolutely locks me into Omaha. And I suppose going to UGA... would lock you into Georgia, SMU.... Dallas, KU... Kansas City, etc. I don't want to stay in Omaha just because I'm from Omaha.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:33 am

I think you ought to go somewhere and work for a couple years if you just want to leave Omaha. Establish roots somewhere else, retake later.

Creighton is the only option that makes sense in terms of risk/ties if you want to go this year

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby ArchieHicox » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:42 am

At what price point is a school like Tulane, SMU, UGA viable then? Because right now they are ~20k a year after scholarships. I think thinking full ride or bust is too greedy and unrealistic.

I don't really understand the concept of ties. Either you went to High School in an area or you didn't. Either you have family or you don't. There aren't a whole plethora of job options at my disposal either. Would working some shit job for 2 years suddenly make me less of a flight risk?

I would literally have to wait 5 years (!) to re-take, and I'm not going to do that. I appreciate and I understand the re-take sentiment (and I honestly think if I studied like I should have I could have scored a 168-170), but what is done is done.

Can I ask what is a price worth paying to attend these schools are? If this is just like another "cooldude" ... HYS or don't go, I'm not sure how helpful it is to me. Because even with a re-take in 2018, I still have my GPA and I'm just 5 years older. I don't want to be catty, but re-take or don't go isn't an option. And I guess I don't understand. I'm not paying full tuition anywhere.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:58 am

I'd go like $75k into debt (tuition, books, cost of living, interest, everything) for those regional T1s. And that's REALLY pushing it for me, especially since you aren't from those places and seem like you already have a job.

Aside from LSU, SMU, UGA, Tulane, etc. all give you like a 60% or less shot at being a lawyer. That's shitty and not worth spending $100k on.

LSU has decent numbers if you just want to be a lawyer, but the stips are terrible. I might risk it if you can get the stips removed.

It will probably be harder to find a job in Louisiana if you have no preexisting ties.

Real quick, because this has been discussed to death and you should probably just use search:

Ties are basically any reason you would want to stay in the region. Firms want people with ties because 1) in the short turn they will stick around to become competent/profitable 2) in the long term they know people and are more likely to be invested/involved in the community to generate business.

You can overcome this by networking super super hard in school (harder than it seems, but maybe someone will just like you for whatever reason), having siiiick grades (not likely), or having other independent reasons for wanting to be in a place (I challenge you to come up with a reason right now why you would want to work in Baton Rouge or NO, without mentioning partying or "culture and history." I'm guessing you don't have extensive pre LS experience in the shipping industry or whatever).

So for like GA, it's pretty easy to say why you want to be in ATL, but those jobs are competitive. I challenge you to come up with a reason why you want to work in Augusta or Resaca.

Furthermore, if LA is like the other southern states I'm familiar with, there will be an outright good ol boy type network which you will not be a part of, especially in less populated areas.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby ArchieHicox » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:17 am

I'd go like $75k into debt (tuition, books, cost of living, interest, everything) for those regional T1s. And that's REALLY pushing it for me, especially since you aren't from those places and seem like you already have a job.


Fair enough. But that is a HUGE scholarship number. Essentially you are talking 80% scholarship or better. Otherwise its not worth it? To make SMU or Tulane fit under that 75k # I would have to be getting 40,000 a year from either school in scholarships.

FWIW, I don't have a job at the moment and I really do not want to work in the area my UG major is in (Biz). Finding a good job, would be a challenge and I want to go to law school.

Also to clarify, LSU isn't really a serious contender for me because I don't want to live in Baton Rouge. I'd rather take Omaha over Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I just included it on the list because I did get a fairly significant scholarship. Maybe, I can use it for some attempt at negotiation?

I want to work in a larger Midwestern or Southern city. So working in Resaca, GA or Norfolk, NE or something like that isn't in the cards. I think attending SMU would position me well for Dallas. UGA for Atlanta. Tulane.... maybe New Orleans, Houston. Outside of going to UT-Austin or UVA (which at my GPA is never going to be an option), how could I enter those markets? I think looking at SMU as a ticket (with solid grades) into Dallas is not foolish.

Whatever, I don't have the ties to the places I want to be. And going to Creighton, ensures I'll never have them. Because going to Creighton hoping for Dallas would be insane, right? And the other thing that scares me is if I am not tip-top at Creighton, I am FUCKED. There is no room for error. To get a mid-law position in Omaha, you have to be Top 10% and Law Review.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby star fox » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:26 am

I'm guessing a place like LSU is mostly "Louisiana shit law". Probably very low paying. Not enviable jobs. Probably not even all that easy to get without Louisiana ties. Idk though. Any LSU students or alums to confirm/deny? What's "New Orleans Big Law" like?
or deny.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:29 am

,
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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby SHANbangs » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:39 am

How much debt is too much? 0. How about 3 years of foregone earnings. Opportunity cost baby.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby ArchieHicox » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:51 am

Like I said, LSU isn't really a contender. They have sky-high employment rates on LST though. Not all JD-Required jobs are made equal though which is why I'm a little hesitant to swear by LST. Would anyone really say LSU is a better school than say Notre Dame?

And yes, I've looked at LST. That pretty much goes without saying, but almost every school is in the 50-60% range. It is what it is.

What I'm going off is the number of people employed in quality jobs (which I mentioned in my original post). At UGA, that number is like 55 students who work in firms of a 100+ or clerk at the Federal level. Which is about 25%. SMU is right around those numbers too. Which is better employment than Creighton or Nebraska, and in a more desirable market.

Just as an unrelated question. Is there any specific reason why you are so crass... jerbs. dood. Crotch pic avatar? Not disagreeing with your advice or comments, but its just off-putting.

Dude did you even look at LST? UGA/SMU/Tulane don't really position you that well for JOBS, ANY JOBS, much less ones in those major markets


I'm curious, what are you basing this off? The date I've seen puts JD Required somewhere between 60-75%.

I guess I just really disagree with the whole alarmist state of mind. Any option is going to be risky. I don't understand how taking a shitty 30k job I don't like is better. If I got accepted into a similar MBA program, job prospects aren't lights out there either. Like people like to think there are so many better opportunities out there, and I just don't see those. At least for someone with my skill-set.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby ArchieHicox » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:55 am

And I have to ask this, RadLulz, since I am trying to weigh your advice. Are you a 0L, in law school, graduated, working, etc?

Obviously I appreciate the advice and time either way, but if you are in the same boat as me... then the advice is less helpful. Or if you are unemployed and bitter, then that is worth considering as well. Because someone who is doing well, isn't going to make 7,000+ posts on a forum. Just the way things work. People who are angry are the loudest.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:59 am

,
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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby star fox » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:03 am

Advice from 3Ls and recent alums is the most helpful part of the site. Just deriding them as bitter losers and assuming there's no way you end up among the 40 % who end up severely underemployed with soul crushing debt (or say the 80 % who end up in jobs that make paying off the debt a lifelong burden) is pretty special snow flakey.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:04 am

ha-ri wrote:And I have to ask this, RadLulz, since I am trying to weigh your advice. Are you a 0L, in law school, graduated, working, etc?

Obviously I appreciate the advice and time either way, but if you are in the same boat as me... then the advice is less helpful. Or if you are unemployed and bitter, then that is worth considering as well. Because someone who is doing well, isn't going to make 7,000+ posts on a forum. Just the way things work. People who are angry are the loudest.

3L, employed (still got dat bar doe), got a significant scholarship to a school (schools actually) with much better employment outcomes than those, but if LST and the same info we have today were available back in 2009-10, I'm not sure I would have gone.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby IAFG » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:09 am

I am employed and not bitter and agree with everything rad lulz has said ITT. I voted for Creighton because its far and away your best option but I think the much better plan is to skip law school altogether. One of my dear friends graduated from Creighton during the boom and even then, their placement was sorta shitty. Lots of people doing low paying "JD preferred" or straight non-law work.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby ArchieHicox » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:14 am

I don't want to be an accountant. I guess that is what it comes down to. If I'm going to go to Law School, the minimum debt is going to be $40,000 for basic cost of living. Tuition at 20k a year is less than most undergraduate institutions. Is it really wise to go to a Creighton, banking on Top 10%? Which I'd like to think I have a shot at, but its certainly no lock. And market in Omaha is ~75k. Where as SMU/UGA... no lock itself but instead of top 10%.... its top 20-25% and market is 130k.

I'm not deriding anyone. I'm asking if "rad lulz" is a OL or 3L because I genuinely don't know. All I know is he posts a LOT. Ayd is angry. If he is a 3L, then yeah I'm open to hearing his opinion. If he is a 0L... like the whole HYS or don't go cool dude then I don't really care. That is why I asked.

So if SMU/Tulane/UGA are too expensive at 100k.... the only time to consider a non T-14 Law School is essentially at Full Tuition (which is still 40-50k depending on if fees are covered). Is that right?

I don't understand two things. Why people assume that job prospects are better elsewhere, when they aren't and why people are so rabidly harsh. There is a lot of valuable information here, but people are just soulless assholes.

Just deriding them as bitter losers and assuming there's no way you end up among the 40 % who end up severely underemployed with soul crushing debt (or say the 80 % who end up in jobs that make paying off the debt a lifelong burden) is pretty special snow flakey.


Those 40% or 80% numbers are just not what I see anecdotally. Or even in the harshest data. Are you really suggesting that only 1/5 attorneys are living comfortably? So I struggle to reconcile the gloom and doom of TLS with what I know. Most attorneys I know in mid-career are doing well. Not wealthy but comfortable. Working whatever shitty marketing gig I could get that I don't like is not smarter to me long-term. Any sort of graduate school comes with debt. You have to be willing to take risks.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby IAFG » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:24 am

current mid-career attorneys never had the debt that you will have.

There is a lot of valuable information here, but people are just soulless assholes.


you don't just want help, but you want help in the tone and manner you prefer? well, you know, fuck off. those of us who choose to guide 0Ls are taking on the thankless and unending task of talking morons out of acting like morons. i've been on TLS for the better part of 5 years. that means i've seen people have every sort of post law school outcome imaginable, and i have a pretty good grasp of what sorts of typical outcomes people have from various schools, and i can see that you're on track to make a bad life choice. ignore me, heed my warning, i honestly don't give a fuck.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:28 am

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby ArchieHicox » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:36 am

I think toning down some of the aggressiveness and anger would be preferable. I've rarely ever seen a board as venomous and prone to circle jerking as this one. Its an ugly environment and I don't think it helps anyone. Congrats on being a forum warrior?

Honestly, its more irritating to read that dip shit say things like "still got dat bar doe" than any of his advice. I actually respect his opinion, if he is a 3L. I think he is a bit too negative/bitter, but I understand it comes from experience.

This is what I don't understand. The debt is not that much, at least compared to peers (on this very site). I'm not paying full sticker anywhere. I would understand the dumbass comments if I was talking about paying $225,000 to Tulane or $125,000 to Idaho. If I'm an idiot to consider Tulane at $28,000/annual scholarship.... what does that make everyone else? Outside of people in the 168+ range, almost everyone accepted to Tulane has a lower scholarship than me. So why I am being torn to shreds here.

Tulane isn't an abject shit-hole. Its not as if I said some unknown school and asked about paying sticker.

Unless its full tuition, people here don't seem to think its ever worth it. Like I don't get it. I could understand this ripping apart that is going on if I was asking about paying sticker at Creighton or paying 100k for Creighton or some other TTT.

50k-70k in tuition over three years is not that much imho.

I don't think it's helpful to make sweeping pronouncements.


LOL

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IAFG
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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby IAFG » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:41 am

If you want politely worded advice with proper grammar and usage, go shell out for an admissions consultant you self-important twat.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:46 am

,
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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby ArchieHicox » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:48 am

IAFG wrote: advice with proper grammar and usage, go shell out for an admissions consultant you self-important twat.


Whatever, I think this place is more about attacking people than advice anyways. FWIW, I don't think rad lulz needs any help with the attacks. He is doing a pretty good job of getting some hits in without your little side-kick routine. I don't so much care about the grammar... it was just a very naked attempt to fuck with me because I complained about his crassness earlier. Whatever, this is bothering me more than it should.

I've tried to be really respectful and take the advice under consideration. And I'll think about what you both said.

I guess what is just bothering me is, for every person like me there are five or six who are taking on more debt, at worse schools. If me considering a top-40 or top-50 school at half-tuition or more off is stupid..... what does that make the general public? Who are going to TT or TTT or TTTT at sticker? I kind of feel like those people are the ones who need the re-education and insult barrage. Anyways, good night and thanks for the advice.

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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:56 am

,
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Re: How much debt is too much for a regional T1? (Poll)

Postby ArchieHicox » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:06 am

The numbers are off probably because of some altercations I did to the indirect expenses (mentioned it in the first line of my first post) because they over-estimated (i.e. $2,500 in transportation). I haven't sat down and done the interest but 140-150k seems right.

Why the fuck can you not talk normally? I mean seriously.....




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