T14 Law School vs. 70k a year job Forum

[fallingup]

^This is a very good point. I work at one of the firms on your list, and 2 of my coworkers have left my firm in the last 6 months for another firm on your list - and both got 20K salary hikes by doing so. I actually interviewed with that firm that they moved to, and they agreed to hire me if I gave up my law school dream. I thought about it long and hard and decided that at the end of the day, law is where I belong. I could make 100-150K by age 30 in consulting by climbing the ladder and moving between firms strategically, but there's no way I'd hit 200. I'd rather get a law degree to make that pay jump. I'm only 23...why languish?

[BitterSplitter]

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[AllTheLawz]

Out of undergrad I worked in a consulting/strategy type job w/ ~55-65k starting salary in a very low COL area. After almost two years in law school (HYS) I honestly often feel I should've stayed on that path. I am doing perfectly fine so far (I have the $160k SA lined up at a well regarded firm, total debt at graduation will be a comparatively reasonable at ~150k including undergrad, had offers in multiple cities, etc.) but I look at what I have given up and it seems really questionable. Had I stayed in my previous job I would have been debt free, been able to buy a brand-new car straight cash and would now be well-positioned to buy a home or do whatever else I wanted. I look at my former colleagues actually living life and it is sometimes kind of depressing. Instead I am looking at student loan payments of $3k/month for 4+ years after i graduate, a job I am not sure I will like, no prospects of home-ownership before my mid-30s and relative career instability even after I start at the firm.

All this is to say, law school kind of sucks even for the "winners." If I were you, I would at least thinking about saving up some money and working a few years before I started thinking about law school. If you still think it is worth it in 3 years then pull the trigger.

[Ti Malice]

tough call can I ask why NU ED wasn't an option? I could be wrong, but don't they usually give money to people like you with solid WE and a high LSAT?

People who are accepted ED at NU now receive a $150K scholarship. They don't give that out to splitters.

[BitterSplitter]

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[turkeysub]

I went to a T14 straight from college, but this was basically my decision too (good UG gpa, marketable major etc). On one hand it would suck for someone who would have been good at their consulting gig to go to law school, take the debt and not find a comparable level of employment. On the other hand it would also suck for someone who would have done well at law school/law to stick to consulting, never go to law school, and stagnate. I think it's a really tough decision and there's not a whole lot of career guidance out there to help with it.

[AllTheLawz]

Out of undergrad I worked in a consulting/strategy type job w/ ~55-65k starting salary in a very low COL area. After almost two years in law school (HYS) I honestly often feel I should've stayed on that path. I am doing perfectly fine so far (I have the $160k SA lined up at a well regarded firm, total debt at graduation will be a comparatively reasonable at ~150k including undergrad, had offers in multiple cities, etc.) but I look at what I have given up and it seems really questionable. Had I stayed in my previous job I would have been debt free, been able to buy a brand-new car straight cash and would now be well-positioned to buy a home or do whatever else I wanted. I look at my former colleagues actually living life and it is sometimes kind of depressing. Instead I am looking at student loan payments of $3k/month for 4+ years after i graduate, a job I am not sure I will like, no prospects of home-ownership before my mid-30s and relative career instability even after I start at the firm.

All this is to say, law school kind of sucks even for the "winners." If I were you, I would at least thinking about saving up some money and working a few years before I started thinking about law school. If you still think it is worth it in 3 years then pull the trigger.

You definitely know better the benefits and drawbacks of your own situation, but I think that the time in law school and immediately following it is the sacrifice period to enjoy better financial security 3-5 years out of school til the day you die (unless you eff up of course, then it ends up being a gamble that didnt pay off, but yours seems like it will soon!)

This is possibly true but the problem is that to get in a position that is immediately similar to the one I was in before undergrad (After taxes and loan payments 1st year take-home will be about ~70k vs. the ~50-60k I would probably be taking home if I just worked) I had to score in the top 1% of LSAT test takers, get accepted to a school ranked in the top 1% of law schools, get a job that only 5% or so law grads get and now I have to convert this entry-level job into some other good outcome that is nowhere near guaranteed (probably 15% or less of my school's graduating class will ever be biglaw partners and who knows how exit options will work out). That is a lot of risk on the way to this path to financial security.

Making 70k at 23 with little or no debt is already pretty financially secure. Yes, unemployment may hit but that is always a risk. Given the debt level most people take out for a top law school, I would argue that there is a very good chance the risk-weighted payoff in the long-term falls i favor of the 70k w/o law school guy. You have to remember that the people making 55k+ directly out of undergrad are not just your run of the mill grads. Most of these people are likely to have good outcomes in the long-term even without law school.

[de5igual]

Out of undergrad I worked in a consulting/strategy type job w/ ~55-65k starting salary in a very low COL area. After almost two years in law school (HYS) I honestly often feel I should've stayed on that path. I am doing perfectly fine so far (I have the $160k SA lined up at a well regarded firm, total debt at graduation will be a comparatively reasonable at ~150k including undergrad, had offers in multiple cities, etc.) but I look at what I have given up and it seems really questionable. Had I stayed in my previous job I would have been debt free, been able to buy a brand-new car straight cash and would now be well-positioned to buy a home or do whatever else I wanted. I look at my former colleagues actually living life and it is sometimes kind of depressing. Instead I am looking at student loan payments of $3k/month for 4+ years after i graduate, a job I am not sure I will like, no prospects of home-ownership before my mid-30s and relative career instability even after I start at the firm.

All this is to say, law school kind of sucks even for the "winners." If I were you, I would at least thinking about saving up some money and working a few years before I started thinking about law school. If you still think it is worth it in 3 years then pull the trigger.

shit, this is exactly how i feel and what goes through my head every time i browse through linkedin/facebook.

[Paul Campos]

Out of undergrad I worked in a consulting/strategy type job w/ ~55-65k starting salary in a very low COL area. After almost two years in law school (HYS) I honestly often feel I should've stayed on that path. I am doing perfectly fine so far (I have the $160k SA lined up at a well regarded firm, total debt at graduation will be a comparatively reasonable at ~150k including undergrad, had offers in multiple cities, etc.) but I look at what I have given up and it seems really questionable. Had I stayed in my previous job I would have been debt free, been able to buy a brand-new car straight cash and would now be well-positioned to buy a home or do whatever else I wanted. I look at my former colleagues actually living life and it is sometimes kind of depressing. Instead I am looking at student loan payments of $3k/month for 4+ years after i graduate, a job I am not sure I will like, no prospects of home-ownership before my mid-30s and relative career instability even after I start at the firm.

All this is to say, law school kind of sucks even for the "winners." If I were you, I would at least thinking about saving up some money and working a few years before I started thinking about law school. If you still think it is worth it in 3 years then pull the trigger.

You definitely know better the benefits and drawbacks of your own situation, but I think that the time in law school and immediately following it is the sacrifice period to enjoy better financial security 3-5 years out of school til the day you die (unless you eff up of course, then it ends up being a gamble that didnt pay off, but yours seems like it will soon!)

The last reason anybody should go to law school right now is to "enjoy financial security." That's like moving to Los Angeles because you hate traffic jams.

[NYstate]

Out of undergrad I worked in a consulting/strategy type job w/ ~55-65k starting salary in a very low COL area. After almost two years in law school (HYS) I honestly often feel I should've stayed on that path. I am doing perfectly fine so far (I have the $160k SA lined up at a well regarded firm, total debt at graduation will be a comparatively reasonable at ~150k including undergrad, had offers in multiple cities, etc.) but I look at what I have given up and it seems really questionable. Had I stayed in my previous job I would have been debt free, been able to buy a brand-new car straight cash and would now be well-positioned to buy a home or do whatever else I wanted. I look at my former colleagues actually living life and it is sometimes kind of depressing. Instead I am looking at student loan payments of $3k/month for 4+ years after i graduate, a job I am not sure I will like, no prospects of home-ownership before my mid-30s and relative career instability even after I start at the firm.

All this is to say, law school kind of sucks even for the "winners." If I were you, I would at least thinking about saving up some money and working a few years before I started thinking about law school. If you still think it is worth it in 3 years then pull the trigger.

shit, this is exactly how i feel and what goes through my head every time i browse through linkedin/facebook.

Do you guys mind explaining why you went to law school? What were you looking for that was worth giving up what you had?
Also, what was your day to day life in consulting like - what kind of hours were you working?

I am curious because many people here say the reason they want to go to law school is because their only other job opportunity is barrista or retail sales, etc. They see law school as their only chance at a career. So i wonder why people with good jobs decide to give them up for law school.

[fallingup]

I look at what I have given up and it seems really questionable. Had I stayed in my previous job I would have been debt free, been able to buy a brand-new car straight cash and would now be well-positioned to buy a home or do whatever else I wanted. I look at my former colleagues actually living life and it is sometimes kind of depressing. Instead I am looking at student loan payments of $3k/month for 4+ years after i graduate, a job I am not sure I will like, no prospects of home-ownership before my mid-30s and relative career instability even after I start at the firm.

This is a very good point. From my perspective, it's worth it if you have a partner who is not in a lot of debt who can get you through those initial tough years. I'm in a long-term committed relationship with someone who will have little to no debt and will have a master's degree and be working full time by the time I start 3L. If he were considering law school or med school, I'm not sure it'd work as well.

That being said, I don't think it has to be doomsday post-law school with regard to buying a car or home. I know several first year analysts at my firm who make ~60K GROSS (not take home) per year who have already bought cars and starter homes. They're not BMWs or New York City condos, but they are solid purchases for 22 year olds. As a $160K+ associate, you will take home 70K after taxes and your student loan payments. You're telling me you can't afford a car or home down payment with that kind of money? Come on now.

[sinfiery]

I never understood the home part of it. Odds are, your mortgage will cost slightly more than your rent. It's not that much of a monetary commitment as it is a lifestyle commitment.

[BitterSplitter]

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[dixiecupdrinking]

I never understood the home part of it. Odds are, your mortgage will cost slightly more than your rent. It's not that much of a monetary commitment as it is a lifestyle commitment.

Well, one big part of it is that most biglaw jobs are in places like NYC and DC. Good luck buying a place without saving for a decade. Maybe if you're in Texas or even Chicago or something then yeah, not inconceivable that you could pay down loans and also save up for a down payment within a couple of years.

Also, on a slightly tangential topic, this new proposed law school debt forgiveness idea where ppl only pay 10% of their salary towards LS debt and then the rest is forgiven after 20 years, isn't this similar to the bailout? It looks on the surface to be helping the screwed over ppl but really it's a way to pay off law schools for their horrible and deceptive decisions to flood the market with as many JDs as are willing to pay for them?

Yeah, there's definitely a systemic incentive problem. For an individual borrower's perspective it seems like an unmitigated positive, though. (Provided you don't borrow more recklessly in reliance on the program.)

[Paul Campos]

Out of undergrad I worked in a consulting/strategy type job w/ ~55-65k starting salary in a very low COL area. After almost two years in law school (HYS) I honestly often feel I should've stayed on that path. I am doing perfectly fine so far (I have the $160k SA lined up at a well regarded firm, total debt at graduation will be a comparatively reasonable at ~150k including undergrad, had offers in multiple cities, etc.) but I look at what I have given up and it seems really questionable. Had I stayed in my previous job I would have been debt free, been able to buy a brand-new car straight cash and would now be well-positioned to buy a home or do whatever else I wanted. I look at my former colleagues actually living life and it is sometimes kind of depressing. Instead I am looking at student loan payments of $3k/month for 4+ years after i graduate, a job I am not sure I will like, no prospects of home-ownership before my mid-30s and relative career instability even after I start at the firm.

All this is to say, law school kind of sucks even for the "winners." If I were you, I would at least thinking about saving up some money and working a few years before I started thinking about law school. If you still think it is worth it in 3 years then pull the trigger.

You definitely know better the benefits and drawbacks of your own situation, but I think that the time in law school and immediately following it is the sacrifice period to enjoy better financial security 3-5 years out of school til the day you die (unless you eff up of course, then it ends up being a gamble that didnt pay off, but yours seems like it will soon!)

The last reason anybody should go to law school right now is to "enjoy financial security." That's like moving to Los Angeles because you hate traffic jams.

Why do I feel like a college football player who just had a NFL pro reply to his twitter post? Paul Campos! I really enjoy your articles although I personally do not feel the advice is 100% applicable to myself. Let me ask you a question (going to veer off topic)

Why can't the ABA regulate law schools more efficiently - specifically, what if they were to maintain a certain neccessary percentage for law schools to meet, in regards to graduates that landed a long-term JD-required job, or lose accredidation . If they were to do so, it would entice the bad schools to stop over saturating the market with JDs and also focus on helping their grads more. It would not run into any issues of discrimination against the poor (like the pay 20% upfront idea,etc) or any other disenfranchised subset of the population, i think. Wouldn't this work? I'm unfamiliar with the innerworkings of law school accredidation etc so I am sincerely asking. I'm sure i'm not the first to think of this, but what are the pragmatic hurdles to overcome with this idea?

Also, on a slightly tangential topic, this new proposed law school debt forgiveness idea where ppl only pay 10% of their salary towards LS debt and then the rest is forgiven after 20 years, isn't this similar to the bailout? It looks on the surface to be helping the screwed over ppl but really it's a way to pay off law schools for their horrible and deceptive decisions to flood the market with as many JDs as are willing to pay for them? Most of the ppl that should have been accepted wil pay back their loans in 20 years and those that were suckered into going but shouldnt have will end up accruing tens of thousands in interest that the school will get paid by tax dollars...profit for employing a morally questionable admissions process!

The "ABA" isn't the real player in all this, since the ABA is actually an umbrella organization that contains a lot of different interest groups. The relevant regulatory actor is the Section of Legal Education, which in recent years has been dominated by deans and professors from low-ranked law schools, because these are the people who have the most to gain from maintaining the current regulatory regime (in other words it's a classic case of regulatory capture).

IBR/PAYE is a bailout for about 100 otherwise economically unsustainable law schools.

[AllTheLawz]

Do you guys mind explaining why you went to law school? What were you looking for that was worth giving up what you had?
Also, what was your day to day life in consulting like - what kind of hours were you working?

I am curious because many people here say the reason they want to go to law school is because their only other job opportunity is barrista or retail sales, etc. They see law school as their only chance at a career. So i wonder why people with good jobs decide to give them up for law school.

I was not in a consulting firm but in a corporate strategy position for a company with many brands (basically, in-house consulting). The money was good and I would be moving into manager role in an actual brand/department at this point. Hours weren't terrible, though I wasn't fully exposed since it was known I wouldn't be staying, with most people working 50-60 hours in the office plus a few more at home and travel was a few days per month at most. Downside, however, was the fact that you were on call to some degree 24/7.

My main reason for going to law school was the thinking that my "work future" was stable but I lacked the possibility for huge upside. I had graduated with great grades from a state school that was solid, but not the kind that elite employers heavily recruited from. I figured that by going to a top law school I would still likely have a stable (and probably higher) income but with much greater upside potential. In addition, it would give me access to the higher-level jobs (MBB consulting, for instance) that I didn't have out of undergrad. All of this pretty much came true but what I didn't anticipate is how much I would hate law school classes and the feeling that I am sacrificing years of my life for something that ultimately may not pay off any better than the situation I was already in.

This is a very good point. From my perspective, it's worth it if you have a partner who is not in a lot of debt who can get you through those initial tough years. I'm in a long-term committed relationship with someone who will have little to no debt and will have a master's degree and be working full time by the time I start 3L. If he were considering law school or med school, I'm not sure it'd work as well.

That being said, I don't think it has to be doomsday post-law school with regard to buying a car or home. I know several first year analysts at my firm who make ~60K GROSS (not take home) per year who have already bought cars and starter homes. They're not BMWs or New York City condos, but they are solid purchases for 22 year olds. As a $160K+ associate, you will take home 70K after taxes and your student loan payments. You're telling me you can't afford a car or home down payment with that kind of money? Come on now.

I never understood the home part of it. Odds are, your mortgage will cost slightly more than your rent. It's not that much of a monetary commitment as it is a lifestyle commitment.

It's not really that you lack the money to buy a home and make monthly mortgage payments.. its more that you lack the stability. I will probably have 4-5 years at the firm if I want but I have no idea what comes next. Even if all my loans are payed off I wouldn't feel comfortable buying a place until my second job. In addition, the $160k jobs all require you to live in high COL areas. A decent "starter home" in the suburbs of my non-NYC market is around $500-600k. 20% down-payment on that comes to $100-120k in cash. In addition, giving the instability of your job situation, you should have half a years salary saved as soon as possible. So, if I want to buy a home in this area, I will be looking to save $150-200k in cash. Not a small amount of money.

[BitterSplitter]

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[BitterSplitter]

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[lukertin]

I never understood the home part of it. Odds are, your mortgage will cost slightly more than your rent. It's not that much of a monetary commitment as it is a lifestyle commitment.

Except for the part where a mortgage can be viewed as an investment, whereas rent is throwing money into a hole.

[sparty99]

Out of undergrad I worked in a consulting/strategy type job w/ ~55-65k starting salary in a very low COL area. After almost two years in law school (HYS) I honestly often feel I should've stayed on that path. I am doing perfectly fine so far (I have the $160k SA lined up at a well regarded firm, total debt at graduation will be a comparatively reasonable at ~150k including undergrad, had offers in multiple cities, etc.) but I look at what I have given up and it seems really questionable. Had I stayed in my previous job I would have been debt free, been able to buy a brand-new car straight cash and would now be well-positioned to buy a home or do whatever else I wanted. I look at my former colleagues actually living life and it is sometimes kind of depressing. Instead I am looking at student loan payments of $3k/month for 4+ years after i graduate, a job I am not sure I will like, no prospects of home-ownership before my mid-30s and relative career instability even after I start at the firm.

All this is to say, law school kind of sucks even for the "winners." If I were you, I would at least thinking about saving up some money and working a few years before I started thinking about law school. If you still think it is worth it in 3 years then pull the trigger.

shit, this is exactly how i feel and what goes through my head every time i browse through linkedin/facebook.

Do you guys mind explaining why you went to law school? What were you looking for that was worth giving up what you had?
Also, what was your day to day life in consulting like - what kind of hours were you working?

I am curious because many people here say the reason they want to go to law school is because their only other job opportunity is barrista or retail sales, etc. They see law school as their only chance at a career. So i wonder why people with good jobs decide to give them up for law school.

50-70 hours a week. Left cause I wanted a career change and wanted to make six figures. Thought consulting background would give me a leg up (it didn't, only grades matter). Didn't do MBA cause the GMAT requires numbers and I don't do numbers.

[Lost_Dreams]

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful, honest reply.

I am kind of surprised that nobody here is a proponent of law school idea given my situation. The primary reason for me to consider law school was because of my belief that the work you'd do as a lawyer would be more analytical than what I do, for better money. But I guess I was wrong.

I honestly feel like my job is a dead-end. I've been looking for any form of 'exit opportunities' since last year, with no success of anything I'd like materializing. I did learn a lot about Excel, Visio, PowerPoint, talking to clients, and how to configure SAP or Oracle products. I keep applying to finance/ management consulting jobs by networking with people from my school, talking to recruiters, etc but I'v been shit out of luck so far. It kind of depresses me to think that I may have to stomach living with a job/career that bores me to tears 80-90% of the time I am on the job.

[bk1]

It kind of depresses me to think that I may have to stomach living with a job/career that bores me to tears 80-90% of the time I am on the job.

Welcome to the rest of your (and everyone else's) life.

[Lost_Dreams]

Long time lurker, first time poster here. I came here to get some career advice from those knowledgeable TLS law school veterans.

Some background info: I currently work at a large consulting firm as an IT consultant. (think IBM, Capgemini, Deloitte, Accenture, PwC, Booze Allen Hamilton, etc) I graduated from college 2 years ago, and have been working at this job since then. I make decent salary (70k), but the four big problems I have with my job are: 1) the work I do is pretty boring, and I don't really enjoy IT-related work all that much (I originally wanted to go into finance/management consulting, but I failed), 2) constant, weekly required travel to bumb-fuck places is wearing me down, 3) I feel that staying in IT consulting pigeonholes me into a very specific line of career and I feel that there are no meaningful exit opportunities outside of IT related jobs, 4) most of stuff I do on daily basis doesn't really require much thinking/ analytical skills, and I sometimes feel brain-dead doing the job.

I've given serious consideration into law school since last year. I graduated from UPenn with degree in Econ. But, while in college, I really screwed up my GPA and got shot down from most of high finance/ management consulting jobs, which would have suit my career interests better than my current job. I'd like a line of work that is a bit more intellectually stimulating than my current job, doesn't require me to fly to random places all that often, and has a larger financial reward/upside.

I got a great LSAT score (172) but due to my horrible GPA (3.1), the highest ranked school I got into was UVA, with no scholarship money. I also got into Georgetown and Cornell, with no scholarship money. At this point, should I consider attending law school, given the enormous opportunity/financial costs that I am looking at and given the current job market for law grads (which I know isn't very good)? I am a pretty analytical person, enjoy reading/writing, and could see myself as a lawyer. However, what do I know, since I've never set foot inside a law school building nor have worked a day inside a law firm. I'd like to get some perspective, feedback, and advice. I would really like to know if attending law school, given my personal background, is a sound career move. If not law school, what else should I be thinking. I know that I don't want to stay in my line of work forever, although I could keep doing it if I really had no other meaningful option.

Thanks in advance.

Can't you just apply to another consulting firm. Consulting is consulting. I didn't do IT, but I worked at a firm you quoted and landed interviews with McKinsey and Monitor after gaining two years experience. I would stay in Consulting. As long as you are good at excel/access, you should be able to get another gig. I'd recommend posting your resume on monster.com and see who contacts you. Law is not a good option.

I could easily get interview opportunities from other consulting firms for IT consulting positions, doing crap like SAP, Oracle, etc. But, I've been finding it near impossible to land any interview for even a boutique, no-name consulting firm for strategy/ business management consulting analyst positions.

I'd be perfectly fine with operational consulting - such as supplied chain, analytics, risk, etc. IT consulting just doesn't appeal to my interest or career aspirations at all, and as a result, I feel like I am in a dead-end situation. If I can't get something I want within next 2-3 years, should I consider going for an MBA then, instead of law school?

[Lost_Dreams]

got shot down from most of high finance/ management consulting jobs, which would have suit my career interests better than my current job.

dude, what? if you honestly feel that way, going to law school is retarded. law is even less like high finance/management consulting than what you're doing now. go to a top b-school and get your second bite of the apple.

I considered (and still considering, if I don't end up at law school) going for MBA. However, the main issues I have with MBA is that even if you go to a top-ranked program, the chances of landing an I-banking or a management consulting gig is pretty low. I talked to my friend at U Chicago MBA. He told me that like 30-40% of 2nd year MBA students don't even have a job lined up at this moment.

With law school, I'd think at least most people end up with decent, law-related jobs if you attend a top school. Getting a Biglaw job, I think, is relatively easy compared to getting I-banking or top consulting job. You go to a good law school, get good grades, and just do ok with 20-30 minute conversational interviews. WIth I-banking, you have to network like your life depends on it, even if you go to a top MBA, just to have a shot at a first-round interview. And, landing at management consulting is harder than landing I-banking, so go figure.

After this analysis, and after considering that I don't want to stay in IT consulting field for life, I've been seriously considering law school.

[AllezOM]

Have you thought about Part Time programs. I am in the exact same position as you with a stable job making around 80k. I did decent on the LSAT, but no way I could give up my job so I am enrolling PT.