Going back to school

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acn5zb
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Going back to school

Postby acn5zb » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:34 pm

This is my first post, but I am a longtime viewer of this forum. After an undergrad at the University of Missouri and a year out in the job world. I have been employed since July at a sales position in the Food industry. Much to my dismay, the hiring prospects for myself and my peers just aren't anywhere near what I had thought I might be looking at exiting my business school last May and as such, I've decided to go back to school. Obviously, I'm aware that the prospects for law school graduates as a whole aren't great right now either, but I think that furthering ones education is a good thing and can only serve to open doors for me in the long run.

My LSAT score was a 152. My grade point average is my biggest issue. I REALLY wish I'd cared more in undergrad, as I left school with a 2.34 GPA. In retrospect, should have done some retakes, worked harder, etc. but I didn't see myself ever going back to school so I didn't work very hard.

So, my law school prospects are limited. I have applied to and in some cases been accepted to the following schools:
1)Southern Illinois University, Carbondale
2)Nova Southeastern School of Law, Ft. Lauderdale
3)New England School of Law, Boston
4)University of Dayton, Ohio
5)Widener University, Harrisburg and Deleware
6)Valparaiso University, Indiana

I am aware that none of these schools have particularly exceptional credentials and the career prospects leaving them are marginal at best. I imagine however, that plenty of people before me have found a way to make lemonade out of a less than ideal situation, that hard work can pay off, and that it is possible to attain a good job practicing law after graduating from one of these schools.

Other than a cousin who practices law locally here in St. Louis, I really don't have that many people I can go to for advice about these universities. As an undergrad alumni, I don't have an advisor anymore to help me make an educated decision as to which of these schools to attend. I am unsure what area of the law I would like to get into and am hoping to learn more about the various subfields of legal careers as I attend. I appreciate any input positive or negative about the aforementioned universities.

Thank you,

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jvincent11
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Re: Going back to school

Postby jvincent11 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:42 pm

I don't know what kind of job prospects you were expecting with a 2.34 GPA, but that is besides the point.

Stay at your job and become an entrepreneur on the side.

Do not pay to go to a school that will leave you without a job.

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Winston1984
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Re: Going back to school

Postby Winston1984 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:44 pm

Don't go.

20141023
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Re: Going back to school

Postby 20141023 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:49 pm

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sinfiery
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Re: Going back to school

Postby sinfiery » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:51 pm

No one is going to tell you to go to those schools and if you work hard, everything will be fine. Likely it won't.

If you choose to disregard this advice, please, please pick a school based on where you want to work and cost.

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tuffyjohnson
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Re: Going back to school

Postby tuffyjohnson » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:10 pm

Have you retaken the LSAT already? How many hours of dedicated study did you put in? Did any of the schools offer you financial aid? How much? What are the two cheapest schools on that list and what is the tuition amount they are asking? I am in a similar position as you although I am retaking the JUNE LSAT to try and get a better school/financial aid package. It's been said many times but it's worth repeating: 150K of debt coupled with three years of your working life is not a great investment into a $50,000 a year job (if you are lucky enough to be the 18% out of your TTTT to get it). If you have not already been on the law school transparency site please do so immediately.

acn5zb
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Re: Going back to school

Postby acn5zb » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:06 pm

Thank you
sinfiery wrote:No one is going to tell you to go to those schools and if you work hard, everything will be fine. Likely it won't.

If you choose to disregard this advice, please, please pick a school based on where you want to work and cost.


Thank you for the response. SIU, Dayton and Valpo are among the schools I'm leaning toward. My parents are going to pick up the tab on the school side of things. Be that as it may, I want to save them on tuition and living expenses as much as possible. Since, apparently it is a waste of time to attend any of these schools, maybe someone might have knowledge of using a positive first year gpa to transfer to a more competitive/ relevant university?

timbs4339
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Re: Going back to school

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:14 pm

You've been out one freaking year. You have no idea what the future holds in your current job, but logically you know doubling down on more school, especially these schools, is a bad idea.

I'm extremely confused as to how you can reconcile "the hiring prospects for myself and my peers just aren't anywhere near what I had thought I might be looking at exiting my...school" and "I've decided to go back to school."

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sinfiery
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Re: Going back to school

Postby sinfiery » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:20 pm

I remember seeing a thread with a few examples of people transferring on TLS somewhere if you want to search about.

Also, retake. Or do you feel your peak is a 152 and expect to be at the top of your class? (Also your 2.3 GPA)

But seriously, don't go to those schools.

Atleast you aren't ruining your life with debt and just most likely pissing away your parents money. I guess that's something.

PRgradBYU
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Re: Going back to school

Postby PRgradBYU » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:26 pm

acn5zb wrote:maybe someone might have knowledge of using a positive first year gpa to transfer to a more competitive/ relevant university?


Don't count on that. With the schools you're considering, you'd probably have to be in the top 2-5% to even have a chance of transferring to a decent school. Law school grades are fairly unpredictable so if you're going to a TTT law school with a "I'll just crush it during my first year and then transfer" mindset, you're setting yourself up to be disappointed. And screwed.

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hobie2515
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Re: Going back to school

Postby hobie2515 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:37 pm

Why do you want to go to law school? Furthering one's education is not sufficient, you should have a legitimate reason based on some practical aspect of your life. Also, obviously I don't know you or your situation but law school doesn't seem like a great option for someone who jacked around during undergrad because they failed to see the bigger picture, then wants to quit after 1 year of working in a situation they don't like.

Figure out why you want to go to law school. Be honest with yourself. Also note there is nothing wrong with taking a few more years to gain experience, build connections, learn some attractive skills and retake the LSAT. Take it from someone who did those things, it is WAY worth it.

Ti Malice
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Re: Going back to school

Postby Ti Malice » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:49 pm

Do not go. All of those schools are horrible. Widener is being sued for fraud. All offer horrible prospects.

Your idea that a JD can "only serve to open doors" for you in the long term is completely wrong. JDs go rancid quickly if you don't find legal employment, and odds are strong that you will be looking at awful employment options afterward. In the likely event that you have to work outside of the legal field, a JD will be a liability. People will see you as a flight risk.

Your present situation may not be pleasant, but that doesn't mean you should carelessly make such an expensive (for your parents) and terrible decision. You would be doing nothing but flushing your parents' money down the toilet.

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buddyt
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Re: Going back to school

Postby buddyt » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:58 pm

You need about ~15 more points on the LSAT before your decision to attend any law school becomes less than life-ruining.

acn5zb
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Re: Going back to school

Postby acn5zb » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:02 pm

Yeah, I have been out a year. I didn’t think it was necessary to go into the details of my chosen profession career outlook, salary/ commission potential, etc. I assumed that stating that it “isn’t the place I want to be” would be sufficient. I appreciate the responses but really don’t find any life coaching or commentary on the state of my parents’ finances constructive.

Look, I’m interested in getting more education. The legal field interests me. From what I’ve heard from more than one qualified person within the industry, a law degree only opens doors and employment prospects. That while a "lesser" school can hinder one's job prospects at first, hard work there can pay off.

Money isn’t a problem for my parents; I don’t like talking about this but many of the replies insinuated the “waste of money” associated with TTT schools.

Any constructive help was appreciated. I was really just looking for some input on the schools I had provided. Most people here clearly would be ashamed to be in the same room as a pamphlet from any of the universities I mentioned. This clearly isn’t the place.

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francesfarmer
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Re: Going back to school

Postby francesfarmer » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:06 pm

acn5zb wrote:Yeah, I have been out a year. I didn’t think it was necessary to go into the details of my chosen profession career outlook, salary/ commission potential, etc. I assumed that stating that it “isn’t the place I want to be” would be sufficient. I appreciate the responses but really don’t find any life coaching or commentary on the state of my parents’ finances constructive.

Look, I’m interested in getting more education. The legal field interests me. From what I’ve heard from more than one qualified person within the industry, a law degree only opens doors and employment prospects. That while a "lesser" school can hinder one's job prospects at first, hard work there can pay off.

Money isn’t a problem for my parents; I don’t like talking about this but many of the replies insinuated the “waste of money” associated with TTT schools.

Any constructive help was appreciated. I was really just looking for some input on the schools I had provided. Most people here clearly would be ashamed to be in the same room as a pamphlet from any of the universities I mentioned. This clearly isn’t the place.

Do not listen to advice from older lawyers about law school "opening doors." Their career trajectories are nothing like what ours will be, and in this economy, law school is a huge gamble.

People talk shit on TTT schools because the employment prospects are heinous for the associated cost. Its not elitism, its pragmatism. Check out lawschooltransparency.com.

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WokeUpInACar
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Re: Going back to school

Postby WokeUpInACar » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:09 pm

acn5zb wrote:Yeah, I have been out a year. I didn’t think it was necessary to go into the details of my chosen profession career outlook, salary/ commission potential, etc. I assumed that stating that it “isn’t the place I want to be” would be sufficient. I appreciate the responses but really don’t find any life coaching or commentary on the state of my parents’ finances constructive.

Look, I’m interested in getting more education. The legal field interests me. From what I’ve heard from more than one qualified person within the industry, a law degree only opens doors and employment prospects. That while a "lesser" school can hinder one's job prospects at first, hard work there can pay off.

Money isn’t a problem for my parents; I don’t like talking about this but many of the replies insinuated the “waste of money” associated with TTT schools.

Any constructive help was appreciated. I was really just looking for some input on the schools I had provided. Most people here clearly would be ashamed to be in the same room as a pamphlet from any of the universities I mentioned. This clearly isn’t the place.

Absent all of the other incorrect assumptions in your post, what evidence is there that you are even capable of this? Do you think your fellow students are planning to slack off and be handed a job?

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buddyt
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Re: Going back to school

Postby buddyt » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:13 pm

acn5zb wrote:Look, I’m interested in getting more education. The legal field interests me. From what I’ve heard from more than one qualified person within the industry, a law degree only opens doors and employment prospects.

Maybe this was once true, but your qualified contact in the industry is too far removed from the current legal job market. Things have drastically changed in the last five years. Having a law degree no longer opens any doors or employment prospects except for doors at law firms as a lawyer. These jobs are very difficult to get at respectable schools, and much more so at the schools you mentioned.
acn5zb wrote:That while a "lesser" school can hinder one's job prospects at first, hard work there can pay off.

Law school grades are curved. You cannot guarantee or even expect good grades because of the curve. The only safe assumption to make is that you will be median.
acn5zb wrote:Money isn’t a problem for my parents; I don’t like talking about this but many of the replies insinuated the “waste of money” associated with TTT schools.

You would be wasting your parents' money because the chances of you getting a job as a lawyer coming out of those schools are very, very low.
acn5zb wrote:Any constructive help was appreciated. I was really just looking for some input on the schools I had provided. Most people here clearly would be ashamed to be in the same room as a pamphlet from any of the universities I mentioned. This clearly isn’t the place.

You have been given input on the schools you provided: they are objectively horrible. It is very likely you will not get a job as a lawyer coming from those schools. The advice you have been given is smart and informed.

Edit: to show I'm not being malicious but just trying to help, I compiled the LST links for you:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=siu
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=nova
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=newengland
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=dayton
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=widener
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=valparaiso

Ti Malice
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Re: Going back to school

Postby Ti Malice » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:21 pm

acn5zb wrote:Look, I’m interested in getting more education. The legal field interests me. From what I’ve heard from more than one qualified person within the industry, a law degree only opens doors and employment prospects. That while a "lesser" school can hinder one's job prospects at first, hard work there can pay off.


The people you're listening to are telling you what you want to hear (the JD versatility myth), but they're wrong. Don't listen to boomers, and don't listen to anyone who hasn't graduated law school within the last four years. The legal economy is absolutely nothing like it was in 2007 or 1987. It's a disaster, and the boom years are not coming back.

Money isn’t a problem for my parents; I don’t like talking about this but many of the replies insinuated the “waste of money” associated with TTT schools.


Well, it is a waste of money, regardless of how comfortable your family is financially.

Any constructive help was appreciated. I was really just looking for some input on the schools I had provided. Most people here clearly would be ashamed to be in the same room as a pamphlet from any of the universities I mentioned. This clearly isn’t the place.


We're not focused on the prestige of the schools. It's all about the jobs. Law schools are collectively turning out twice as many lawyers as there are legal jobs every year. Graduates from schools of this level are by far the ones most likely to lose in this game. Again, most students at these schools will have bad employment outcomes. Those debt-financing their education (unlike you) will also likely be crushed by life-ruining debt. If these schools were producing good employment outcomes for their graduates -- like every accredited medical school, for instance -- we wouldn't be disparaging them.

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alwayssunnyinfl
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Re: Going back to school

Postby alwayssunnyinfl » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:34 pm

You can increase a 152 to something over a 167 with the right type and amount of studying. Do that, go to WUSTL, profit.




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