Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

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kingjones59
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Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

Postby kingjones59 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:03 pm

Real Madrid wrote:Please do not turn this into an argument about nobility. You honestly believe that all - let alone the majority - wanted PI jobs upon matriculation? This is exactly why I asked you earlier why UVa (not traditionally known as a PI-heavy school) has gone from sending 4% of its grads into PI to 24% of its grads into "PI." How were students "more pressured" into big law than they are now? As far as I know, UVa still had its LRAP in place way back then for those 4% of students that wanted to pursue those jobs. No, these students are taking these jobs because they (at least for the majority) can't get the law firm gigs they want. You don't go from 4% to 24% in two years by accident.


There must be something that I am missing that is making this hard to understand. Five years ago, you go to law school, 75+% chance you make biglaw and 160K+. People were going to law school strictly for the money. People would call you crazy for going the PI route and making 40K when you could take a guaranteed 160K. Now, with only about 50% of classes getting BigLaw, their is not that guarantee anymore and their is less pressure to abandon your dream of PI work and take a guaranteed 160K. Also, as someone else previously stated, people are less likely to give up on their PI dream if they know they can do a fellowship and have a reasonable chance of getting a PI job after that. PI jobs are near impossible to get upon graduation, and the fellowships are obviously bridging that gap that exists between what PI employers want from an attorney perspective and what fresh law grads can offer. More opportunities to work in PI=more of your class that is employed in PI. It is simple.


Also, about this one little statement - half of it is true. The vast majority of them are lawyers. However, that in no way indicates that they aren't screwed. Is a 40k job at a small firm that doesn't qualify for LRAP with 200k+ in debt not screwed to you?


Your assuming these people are lateraling from PI to a small firm, when, although we don't know for sure, I'd say its a good bet that the majority of these fellowship workers get hired into PI gig, and atleast some with where they did their fellowship at.

envisciguy
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Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

Postby envisciguy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:16 pm

From my experience at UVA, it seems like there's certainly more than 4% of the student body that wants to go into PI. There's a pretty significant number of people I've met who have no interest in big law and are involved in various pro-bono initiatives. I'm sure there's some people who struck out in that 15%, but you can't really assume that everyone or even the majority did.

Also, why are people getting so heated over this? Pretty much every school is doing this now with the shit economy and even if UVA does it a bit more, it's not by that much.

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Justin Genious
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Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

Postby Justin Genious » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:17 pm

kingjones59 wrote:And for those who want to go into PI, BigLaw is not a desirable outcome

Not true.
kingjones59 wrote:their

Hard on the eyes.

Anyways, definitely good to see UVA stepping up and giving us this info. I would think it is reasonable to believe that a larger percentage of law students are now going to law school because they truly want to be a lawyer; however, it does not fully explain the significant gap madrid is referencing.

Real Madrid
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Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

Postby Real Madrid » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:18 pm

kingjones59 wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:Please do not turn this into an argument about nobility. You honestly believe that all - let alone the majority - wanted PI jobs upon matriculation? This is exactly why I asked you earlier why UVa (not traditionally known as a PI-heavy school) has gone from sending 4% of its grads into PI to 24% of its grads into "PI." How were students "more pressured" into big law than they are now? As far as I know, UVa still had its LRAP in place way back then for those 4% of students that wanted to pursue those jobs. No, these students are taking these jobs because they (at least for the majority) can't get the law firm gigs they want. You don't go from 4% to 24% in two years by accident.


There must be something that I am missing that is making this hard to understand. Five years ago, you go to law school, 75+% chance you make biglaw and 160K+. People were going to law school strictly for the money. People would call you crazy for going the PI route and making 40K when you could take a guaranteed 160K. Now, with only about 50% of classes getting BigLaw, their is not that guarantee anymore and their is less pressure to abandon your dream of PI work and take a guaranteed 160K. Also, as someone else previously stated, people are less likely to give up on their PI dream if they know they can do a fellowship and have a reasonable chance of getting a PI job after that. PI jobs are near impossible to get upon graduation, and the fellowships are obviously bridging that gap that exists between what PI employers want from an attorney perspective and what fresh law grads can offer. More opportunities to work in PI=more of your class that is employed in PI. It is simple.


Also, about this one little statement - half of it is true. The vast majority of them are lawyers. However, that in no way indicates that they aren't screwed. Is a 40k job at a small firm that doesn't qualify for LRAP with 200k+ in debt not screwed to you?


Your assuming these people are lateraling from PI to a small firm, when, although we don't know for sure, I'd say its a good bet that the majority of these fellowship workers get hired into PI gig, and atleast some with where they did their fellowship at.


Look, there are a couple things that we know:

1. UVA has gone from sending 4% of its grads into PI to 24% of its grads into PI in the course of about two years.
2. The legal market is shit right now, but conventional TLS wisdom (coming from current law students and recently-minted grads) is that big law has recovered the quickest of any area.

The point I'm making is linked to #2 above. PI and government jobs have been hit hard and are not recovering as quickly as big law, so, in theory, the idea that people are no longer being pressured into big law and are taking the jobs they want just doesn't hold water. If anything, they should be gunning for big law since it's now harder to get those non-biglaw jobs than before. Conventional wisdom also holds that those jobs (at least a lot of the PI ones) are less dependent on grades. So I just don't see how someone could argue that there's been this huge culture shift at UVA where now we have six times as many people wanting to go into PI as we did two years ago despite the fact that they have to know the PI market has been devastated.

NYstate
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Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

Postby NYstate » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:24 pm

Does the study specify more about these jobs than whether a JD was required or not?

I wonder at the quality of the actual jobs people are getting after being school employed for a year.

Edit: as to the increase in PI jobs, could Loan forgiveness based on working PI jobs have increased the interest in these jobs? Does having one for a year give a grad any benefit for loan repayment?

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JO 14
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Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

Postby JO 14 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:36 pm

They may be out there but I personally do not of a single person who wants PI. We go to OCI expecting a good paying SA that will turn into a career. Like most people I feel empathy for those who missed the gravy train since they worked as hard as everyone else did. As far as the school funded deal, I have a friend who is embarrassed by it and keeps it a secret by de-socializing herself. Telling someone it will all work out does not help.

californiabeauar
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Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

Postby californiabeauar » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:33 pm

Madrid, let's think of things to do other than troll the shit out of these forums.

Not to get off topic but, why is Berkeley so shiTTT? (employed at grad: 72.6%) http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... eley-03016. 1 out of every 4 students are unemployed at graduation with no program to help them land a job.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:43 pm

JO 14 wrote:They may be out there but I personally do not of a single person who wants PI. We go to OCI expecting a good paying SA that will turn into a career. Like most people I feel empathy for those who missed the gravy train since they worked as hard as everyone else did. As far as the school funded deal, I have a friend who is embarrassed by it and keeps it a secret by de-socializing herself. Telling someone it will all work out does not help.

This statement says far more about you and who you associate with than anything else. They most certainly are out there.

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sinfiery
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Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

Postby sinfiery » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:24 pm

californiabeauar wrote:Madrid, let's think of things to do other than troll the shit out of these forums.

Not to get off topic but, why is Berkeley so shiTTT? (employed at grad: 72.6%) http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... eley-03016. 1 out of every 4 students are unemployed at graduation with no program to help them land a job.

Very interested in this. Do they just ride their UG/grad degree prestige (grads arguably better than HYPS) or is there something more?

Real Madrid
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Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

Postby Real Madrid » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:22 pm

californiabeauar wrote:Madrid, let's think of things to do other than troll the shit out of these forums.

Not to get off topic but, why is Berkeley so shiTTT? (employed at grad: 72.6%) http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... eley-03016. 1 out of every 4 students are unemployed at graduation with no program to help them land a job.


Lol, what a hypocrite you are. The hell does this thread have to do with Berkeley and why do you keep stalking me?

If you want to start a thread based on a Berkeley article, be my guest, but this isn't the place. Please stay on topic. And good luck at Cornell, which apparently has even worse employment outcomes than that TTT Berkeley.

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Justin Genious
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Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

Postby Justin Genious » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:35 pm

californiabeauar wrote:Madrid, let's think of things to do other than troll the shit out of these forums.

Not to get off topic but, why is Berkeley so shiTTT? (employed at grad: 72.6%) http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... eley-03016. 1 out of every 4 students are unemployed at graduation with no program to help them land a job.

+rep if this is a smart troll who sucks at grammar.

californiabeauar
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Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

Postby californiabeauar » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:00 pm

Justin Genious wrote:
californiabeauar wrote:Madrid, let's think of things to do other than troll the shit out of these forums.

Not to get off topic but, why is Berkeley so shiTTT? (employed at grad: 72.6%) http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... eley-03016. 1 out of every 4 students are unemployed at graduation with no program to help them land a job.

+rep if this is a smart troll who sucks at grammar.


u litle grammer nazi yuo

californiabeauar
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Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

Postby californiabeauar » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:08 pm

Real Madrid wrote:
californiabeauar wrote:Madrid, let's think of things to do other than troll the shit out of these forums.

Not to get off topic but, why is Berkeley so shiTTT? (employed at grad: 72.6%) http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... eley-03016. 1 out of every 4 students are unemployed at graduation with no program to help them land a job.


Lol, what a hypocrite you are. The hell does this thread have to do with Berkeley and why do you keep stalking me?

If you want to start a thread based on a Berkeley article, be my guest, but this isn't the place. Please stay on topic. And good luck at Cornell, which apparently has even worse employment outcomes than that TTT Berkeley.


I do take the occasional stroll down troll lane. Berkeley is arguably better than Cornell, no doubt bout dat! :D




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