IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Choose From:

Indiana Bloomington
14
47%
Wake Forest
7
23%
Fordham
8
27%
Seton Hall
1
3%
 
Total votes: 30

EmilyMennel
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IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby EmilyMennel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:19 pm

Numbers
LSAT 163
GPA 3.4
good softs, full time legal aid clinic, rec from president of univ.

Firstly, I recognize that I am entirely average, and please don't say "retake" or "don't go." I'm interested in working in legal aid on a larger scale, and I'm also interested in working for the government in any number of different capacities.

I've applied to 11 schools, but the ones I'm asking about here are
Indiana - Bloomington
Wake Forest
Fordham
Seton Hall

I've done a fair amount of research and spoken with alumni of these schools, but remain undecided. Thoughts? I'm really just interested in a general consensus. If you don't approve of any, please don't reply. These are my options and I'll be attending one.
Last edited by EmilyMennel on Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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isuperserial
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby isuperserial » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:30 pm

EmilyMennel wrote:Numbers
LSAT 163
GPA 3.4
good softs, full time legal aid clinic, rec from president of univ.

Firstly, I recognize that I am entirely average, and please don't say "retake" or "don't go." I'm interested in working in legal aid on a larger scale, and I'm also interested in working for the government in any number of different capacities.

I've applied to 11 schools, but the ones I'm most interested in are
Indiana - Bloomington
Wake Forest
Fordham
Seton Hall

I've done a fair amount of research and spoken with alumni of these schools, but remain undecided. Thoughts? I'm really just interested in a general consensus. If you don't approve of any, please don't reply. These are my options and I'll be attending one.


First off, congratulations on being accepted to these schools. They may be mediocre in the eyes of these forums, but they're still no picnic.

That being said, Wake Forest has the highest percentage of graduates pursuing Public Service with 17.1%. So that's something to consider with your particular goals in mind.

Furthermore, there are schools with even better Public Service records in the range of the schools you have gotten into! Check out Wisconsin, Iowa and George Mason. These schools may be even better for getting you where you desire to go. In addition to this, they all have better or similar overall employment rates. If you have your heart set on the schools you've chosen, then that's your call.

Finally, to give you a better idea of where you should attend, it would be prudent to deliver us your scholarship options and estimated cost of attendance for the three years plus any other external factors that may influence your decision. Those would include family ties, desired region of work, spouse's location of job, standing amount of debt, etc. Good luck!

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YankeesFan
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby YankeesFan » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:36 pm

For what its worth I had to choose between a full ride at Seton Hall and a lesser scholarship at Wake and chose Wake. It wasn't an easy decision, especially because Seton Hall had great advertising and did a good job of promoting the school, but at the end of the day when i sat down with the stats Wake was a clear winner. Wake, in my opinion, at least gave me a decent chance of practicing law in a state where the name would mean something and it has not disappointed so far. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

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jrthor10
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby jrthor10 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:39 pm

None of these schools have national reach. That's not meant to be a knock against any of them, just to emphasize that you should go to the school in the area in which you are from/have ties/would like to work, etc.

EmilyMennel
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby EmilyMennel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:29 pm

Thank you! This is all very helpful. And financially, when all is said and done, I anticipate that there will be very little difference financially, and I really want straightforward opinions about the schools / programs. This really is helpful and thank you again :) I'm looking forward to visiting Wake next week, and hope to have a clearer picture then. I would be excited to have the opportunity to attend ANY of these schools, honestly.

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ndirish2010
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby ndirish2010 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:44 pm

You should not go to Seton Hall unless you're from NJ and it is free. You shouldn't go to IU if you're not from Indiana and it's not close to free, and same with Wake and NC.

K Rock
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby K Rock » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:58 pm

How much will each one cost? Where do you want to work?

EmilyMennel
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby EmilyMennel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:08 pm

K Rock wrote:How much will each one cost? Where do you want to work?


In a perfect world, I would work in DC. However, I am open to many different options. I'm from Indianapolis and have family in NC, so either of those would be attractive if I'm stuck regionally (which realistically may happen). The New York area is probably second to DC. Of them all, NC may be the least attractive to me, but still not unfavorable.

For the purposes of this forum, let's assume I'm on a level playing field with IU and Wake, with Fordham and Seton Hall coming in at 10k higher.

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isuperserial
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby isuperserial » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:44 pm

EmilyMennel wrote:
K Rock wrote:How much will each one cost? Where do you want to work?


In a perfect world, I would work in DC. However, I am open to many different options. I'm from Indianapolis and have family in NC, so either of those would be attractive if I'm stuck regionally (which realistically may happen). The New York area is probably second to DC. Of them all, NC may be the least attractive to me, but still not unfavorable.

For the purposes of this forum, let's assume I'm on a level playing field with IU and Wake, with Fordham and Seton Hall coming in at 10k higher.


It's understandable that you wish to work in DC and NY (am I wrong in assuming NYC in particular?) but that's simply unlikely for the schools you have given. Everyone and their mother wants to work in DC and NYC. Wake Forest and IU are good schools, but not compared to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago, NYU, UPenn, UMich, Virginia and any number of ridiculous schools that you invite as your competition. It's simply unwise to attend the schools you have listed and expect to work in these meccas of legal markets.

That being said, if you are dead set on this, a considerable scholarship to Fordham would make it feasible, and they have acceptable placement in NY if you can mitigate the costs. DC is pretty much out of the question unless you get into T20 schools, from my limited understanding.

timbs4339
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:02 pm

What is total COA for each school?

EmilyMennel
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby EmilyMennel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:18 pm

isuperserial wrote:
EmilyMennel wrote:
K Rock wrote:How much will each one cost? Where do you want to work?


In a perfect world, I would work in DC. However, I am open to many different options. I'm from Indianapolis and have family in NC, so either of those would be attractive if I'm stuck regionally (which realistically may happen). The New York area is probably second to DC. Of them all, NC may be the least attractive to me, but still not unfavorable.

For the purposes of this forum, let's assume I'm on a level playing field with IU and Wake, with Fordham and Seton Hall coming in at 10k higher.


It's understandable that you wish to work in DC and NY (am I wrong in assuming NYC in particular?) but that's simply unlikely for the schools you have given. Everyone and their mother wants to work in DC and NYC. Wake Forest and IU are good schools, but not compared to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago, NYU, UPenn, UMich, Virginia and any number of ridiculous schools that you invite as your competition. It's simply unwise to attend the schools you have listed and expect to work in these meccas of legal markets.

That being said, if you are dead set on this, a considerable scholarship to Fordham would make it feasible, and they have acceptable placement in NY if you can mitigate the costs. DC is pretty much out of the question unless you get into T20 schools, from my limited understanding.


Thanks for the thoughts. I understand that breaking into those markets is difficult/unlikely unless you go T14/T20. My numbers are just not high enough to be able to attend these schools. Thank you for your remark on Fordham, that's helpful. Since I'm not sure how the financials are going to fall out in the end, I recognize that my ability to make a final decision is hindered. My question isn't so much to do with financials and simply the quality of the education/connections.

Thanks again!

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somewhatwayward
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby somewhatwayward » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:43 pm

EmilyMennel wrote:For the purposes of this forum, let's assume I'm on a level playing field with IU and Wake, with Fordham and Seton Hall coming in at 10k higher.


Does this mean like 200K for Fordham/SH v. 190K for IU and Wake (you need to include COL)? Or is it like 100K v. 90K? If your parents are paying or something, you don't need to be coy (although people will tell you not to waste your parents' money on sticker at any of these schools). It is pretty much impossible for us to advise you without knowing how much they cost.

If you want DC, did you apply to any DC-area schools? Someone else mentioned George Mason. GM with a big scholarship would be okay if your aim is DC (although I wouldn't do it personally - I'd sit out and retake/reapply). Attending Wake, IU, Fordham, or SH with the intent of ending up in DC is very unwise.

Without knowing cost, since you are from IN (and you prefer it over NC), I would lean toward IU but you can forget DC if that is what you choose. I don't want to make it sound like you are forgoing a better chance at DC from the other schools because I don't think you are (one may place like 3% in DC and another 7% but those types of differences should be ignored unless everything else is equal). Of course you should aim for DC (try to work there over the summers, etc) from wherever you go if that is what you want, but you should be realistic in your expectations.

Fordham is mediocre for NYC big law (but much better than other schools in its range) but I don't think it is known for public interest. It would increase your chances of NYC, of course (or, rather, tie you to NYC since it is not well-known outside of NY), but how much is being in NYC worth to you? Fordham will be a lot more expensive than IU just because of COL. Plus I assume you'd get in-state tuition at IU....IU seems like a no-brainer without knowing more.

EmilyMennel
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby EmilyMennel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:58 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:
EmilyMennel wrote:For the purposes of this forum, let's assume I'm on a level playing field with IU and Wake, with Fordham and Seton Hall coming in at 10k higher.


Does this mean like 200K for Fordham/SH v. 190K for IU and Wake (you need to include COL)? Or is it like 100K v. 90K? If your parents are paying or something, you don't need to be coy (although people will tell you not to waste your parents' money on sticker at any of these schools). It is pretty much impossible for us to advise you without knowing how much they cost.

If you want DC, did you apply to any DC-area schools? Someone else mentioned George Mason. GM with a big scholarship would be okay if your aim is DC (although I wouldn't do it personally - I'd sit out and retake/reapply). Attending Wake, IU, Fordham, or SH with the intent of ending up in DC is very unwise.

Without knowing cost, since you are from IN (and you prefer it over NC), I would lean toward IU but you can forget DC if that is what you choose. I don't want to make it sound like you are forgoing a better chance at DC from the other schools because I don't think you are (one may place like 3% in DC and another 7% but those types of differences should be ignored unless everything else is equal). Of course you should aim for DC (try to work there over the summers, etc) from wherever you go if that is what you want, but you should be realistic in your expectations.

Fordham is mediocre for NYC big law (but much better than other schools in its range) but I don't think it is known for public interest. It would increase your chances of NYC, of course (or, rather, tie you to NYC since it is not well-known outside of NY), but how much is being in NYC worth to you? Fordham will be a lot more expensive than IU just because of COL. Plus I assume you'd get in-state tuition at IU....IU seems like a no-brainer without knowing more.


My parents aren't paying, and I would not pay sticker anywhere. I don't have all of the financial information yet, and would hate to speculate so publicly. I have been given a generous scholarship to Wake, and with in-state tuition and a modest scholarship offering, IU would cost the same. That's the reason I'm making this less about money, simply because monetarily they may wind up on an even playing field.

Thank you for your advice!

hopingtogetin
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby hopingtogetin » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:46 pm

What are your $ situations at Seton Hall and Fordham? Knowing even a little more info would help with the decision. Also, do you have ties to any areas in particular?

EmilyMennel
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby EmilyMennel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:12 pm

hopingtogetin wrote:What are your $ situations at Seton Hall and Fordham? Knowing even a little more info would help with the decision. Also, do you have ties to any areas in particular?


I don't know yet for a certainty. Money aside, I am just trying to solicit opinions about the schools in general and regarding public service and gov. jobs. I've always lived in Indiana and have ties to public service here (I currently work for a non-profit legal aid clinic).

timbs4339
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:47 pm

EmilyMennel wrote:
hopingtogetin wrote:What are your $ situations at Seton Hall and Fordham? Knowing even a little more info would help with the decision. Also, do you have ties to any areas in particular?


I don't know yet for a certainty. Money aside, I am just trying to solicit opinions about the schools in general and regarding public service and gov. jobs. I've always lived in Indiana and have ties to public service here (I currently work for a non-profit legal aid clinic).


You really don't seem to get this or you know what the response will be and are avoiding the issue. These schools are all regional. The job prospects don't warrant taking out high five or even six-figures of debt and nobody is going to advise you to do that. Indiana ain't gonna get you to NYC, Fordham ain't gonna get you to Indiana, Wake won't get you to either.

In terms of government job prospects you pick a state and hope to god the local government doesn't institute a hiring freeze. Public interest generally is a huge category and you'd need to be more specific.

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romothesavior
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby romothesavior » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:23 pm

timbs4339 wrote:What is total COA for each school?

OP, people can't even begin to give you advice until you answer this question. You say they're all going to be about the same, but what does that even mean? How close in cost? How much? Is IU going to be 60k or 160k?

IU is the only one that makes any sense here, given your ties to Indy. But it's not worth more than 100k tops.

placencia
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby placencia » Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:17 am

I am disappointed by the poor information in here, at least with respect to Wake. I guess people are making determinations about what they think they know, but there is a lot of misinformation. Frankly, if that's the case with Wake, I would venture it may be true about the other schools as well. The idea that Wake only places in North Carolina is not only wrong, it can only be coming from someone who doesn't actually know anything about our school. I don't mean to be rude, but I think people should be careful about giving advice about schools and couching it as informed if it's not.

As for placing in larger markets outside the south, Wake does so regularly. More people go out of state than remain in state. I would say that Wake's "corridor" is from Texas to New York, and pretty much everywhere in between. I am a 3L and I worked last summer in D.C. and Dallas. I know people here who are placing in top firms in New York and other major markets. Wake also has the D.C. externship, which is the final semester of your 3L year spent with an agency in D.C. I know several people who have done that or are doing it currently.

I can say that if you want to practice in the Midwest, Wake is not your best option (although I do know people from Wisconsin, Indiana, etc. who plan to go home). I can say that Wake is extremely portable. Many of my close friends are taking jobs out of state with very good firms. I know you said you want public sector, but be aware that's a similar competition model. One final caveat...more important than anything else is not which of several similar schools you attend, but how well you do. If you are not doing very well in your class, expect the job search to suck. If you are, then pretty much any school will get you a shot at the job you want.

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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby K Rock » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:06 am

placencia wrote:I am disappointed by the poor information in here, at least with respect to Wake. I guess people are making determinations about what they think they know, but there is a lot of misinformation. Frankly, if that's the case with Wake, I would venture it may be true about the other schools as well. The idea that Wake only places in North Carolina is not only wrong, it can only be coming from someone who doesn't actually know anything about our school. I don't mean to be rude, but I think people should be careful about giving advice about schools and couching it as informed if it's not.

As for placing in larger markets outside the south, Wake does so regularly. More people go out of state than remain in state. I would say that Wake's "corridor" is from Texas to New York, and pretty much everywhere in between. I am a 3L and I worked last summer in D.C. and Dallas. I know people here who are placing in top firms in New York and other major markets. Wake also has the D.C. externship, which is the final semester of your 3L year spent with an agency in D.C. I know several people who have done that or are doing it currently.

I can say that if you want to practice in the Midwest, Wake is not your best option (although I do know people from Wisconsin, Indiana, etc. who plan to go home). I can say that Wake is extremely portable. Many of my close friends are taking jobs out of state with very good firms. I know you said you want public sector, but be aware that's a similar competition model. One final caveat...more important than anything else is not which of several similar schools you attend, but how well you do. If you are not doing very well in your class, expect the job search to suck. If you are, then pretty much any school will get you a shot at the job you want.


http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wake

rad lulz
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby rad lulz » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:10 am

romothesavior wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:What is total COA for each school?

OP, people can't even begin to give you advice until you answer this question. You say they're all going to be about the same, but what does that even mean? How close in cost? How much? Is IU going to be 60k or 160k?

IU is the only one that makes any sense here, given your ties to Indy. But it's not worth more than 100k tops.

EmilyMennel
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby EmilyMennel » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:38 am

placencia wrote:I am disappointed by the poor information in here, at least with respect to Wake. I guess people are making determinations about what they think they know, but there is a lot of misinformation. Frankly, if that's the case with Wake, I would venture it may be true about the other schools as well. The idea that Wake only places in North Carolina is not only wrong, it can only be coming from someone who doesn't actually know anything about our school. I don't mean to be rude, but I think people should be careful about giving advice about schools and couching it as informed if it's not.

As for placing in larger markets outside the south, Wake does so regularly. More people go out of state than remain in state. I would say that Wake's "corridor" is from Texas to New York, and pretty much everywhere in between. I am a 3L and I worked last summer in D.C. and Dallas. I know people here who are placing in top firms in New York and other major markets. Wake also has the D.C. externship, which is the final semester of your 3L year spent with an agency in D.C. I know several people who have done that or are doing it currently.

I can say that if you want to practice in the Midwest, Wake is not your best option (although I do know people from Wisconsin, Indiana, etc. who plan to go home). I can say that Wake is extremely portable. Many of my close friends are taking jobs out of state with very good firms. I know you said you want public sector, but be aware that's a similar competition model. One final caveat...more important than anything else is not which of several similar schools you attend, but how well you do. If you are not doing very well in your class, expect the job search to suck. If you are, then pretty much any school will get you a shot at the job you want.


Thanks! PM'd

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romothesavior
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:55 am

K Rock wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wake

About 48% of the class are reported as unknown or unemployed. Of the remainder of the class, 38% are reported in NYC, 7% in neighboring Virginia, and 5% in New York. I imagine some of those 48% wound up in places like the Midwest, maybe some out to Cali, etc., but the data we have available to us shows that Wake Forest is an extremely regional school. If you go back a year to 2010, over 50% of the class remained in the South Atlantic region, while less than 4% went to the Midwest, less than 2% to the Pacific region (west coast), and 5% went to the West South Central (i.e., Texas and neighboring states).

So, I don't think it's at all unfair to say that Wake Forest is a very regional school, and I don't have to go to school there to make that conclusion. And given that just over 50% of graduates got real legal jobs at all in the c/o 2011, going there without strong ties is going to at least put you behind the 8-ball. I'm not knocking Wake Forest, I have no horse in this race and I have no preconceived opinions of it. But assuming all else is equal, I think IU-B is the better choice since she's from Indy.

This thread is kind of useless though since OP is stubbornly ignoring everybody's requests for COA totals, probably because she's going to be paying a lot and knows what the response would be.

EmilyMennel
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby EmilyMennel » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:07 am

romothesavior wrote:
K Rock wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wake

About 48% of the class are reported as unknown or unemployed. Of the remainder of the class, 38% are reported in NYC, 7% in neighboring Virginia, and 5% in New York. I imagine some of those 48% wound up in places like the Midwest, maybe some out to Cali, etc., but the data we have available to us shows that Wake Forest is an extremely regional school. If you go back a year to 2010, over 50% of the class remained in the South Atlantic region, while less than 4% went to the Midwest, less than 2% to the Pacific region (west coast), and 5% went to the West South Central (i.e., Texas and neighboring states).

So, I don't think it's at all unfair to say that Wake Forest is a very regional school, and I don't have to go to school there to make that conclusion. And given that just over 50% of graduates got real legal jobs at all in the c/o 2011, going there without strong ties is going to at least put you behind the 8-ball. I'm not knocking Wake Forest, I have no horse in this race and I have no preconceived opinions of it. But assuming all else is equal, I think IU-B is the better choice since she's from Indy.

This thread is kind of useless though since OP is stubbornly ignoring everybody's requests for COA totals, probably because she's going to be paying a lot and knows what the response would be.


Sorry! Don't mean to be "stubbornly ignoring," just really didn't want it to become about money, and I don't have all of the "endgame" information available to me yet. So yes, I figured that all the debt averse and pessimistic tls members would say don't go. But since I will be attending law school, those sorts of comments are not constructive in my situation. IU B and Wake are both terrific schools and I think at this point I just need to visit, so that's what I'll be doing starting next week at Wake's admitted students day! Can't wait :)

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romothesavior
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:20 am

One other thing. Much and has been spilled on these forums debating the importance of pies and how to use them when choosing a law school. To me, I use ties to adjust the amount of money I think a school is worth. A person with ties is generally going to have better results than someone without. So if a school has a 50 percent employment score and a 10 percent big firm score, on average the resident will outperform those and the non-native will generally underperform (especially in the big firm arena). Of course, there are no hard and fast rules, but as we often are in these discussions, we're dealing in averages.

With that said, it makes little sense for OP to pick Wake over Indiana given that the (likely high) cost is similar.

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romothesavior
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Re: IU Bloomington, Wake Forest, Fordham, or Seton Hall?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:23 am

OP, if you're looking for end game info, LST is hands down the best source there is. Check out their employment scores, big firm scores, and geographic placement. Both schools are decent regionals, terrific is a bit of an overstatement.




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