Need Serious Advice

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tuffyjohnson
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Need Serious Advice

Postby tuffyjohnson » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:02 am

Since I'm interested in seeing my small children more than once in a month's span, BigLaw can suck a huge one. I live in Minneapolis; prefer to stay there and I have a genuine interest in practicing either family law, criminal defense, or municipal/county/state law. I'm also interested in working as legal council for smallish sized companies or possibly even doing estate planning.

I have an UG GPA of 2.8 and after 6 weeks of serious study (15 hours per week) I think realistically anything above a 157-158 will be pushing my upper limits on this test.

Should I just give up? Is any tuition reform likely that will make practicing law from a TTT a realistic option? It seems like everyone getting accepted at TTT's is getting some form of scholarship dollars these days. I'm pretty set on doing this you guys, I think it's my calling. So how in the hell can I make this work?

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Bronck
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby Bronck » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:10 am

By studying for more than 6 weeks and getting a better LSAT score you can make it work, to try to get scholarship money to make up for the terrible GPA.

This person, e.g., had a 2.8 and a 171 and got 90k from UMN: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/an0therdatap0int

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tuffyjohnson
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby tuffyjohnson » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:17 am

I very much hear and appreciate that advice and I will definitely study my ass off for several more months. But also hear this: not everyone is capable of a 165+. I know what my abilities are and they are not in that range.

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Bronck
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby Bronck » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:18 am

Obviously give it a good faith effort. But, because your GPA is so low, if you can't get a high LSAT score, you're going to have to face the fact that you're not going to become a lawyer because your options will be horrible.

ruralaw
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby ruralaw » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:19 am

tuffyjohnson wrote:Since I'm interested in seeing my small children more than once in a month's span, BigLaw can suck a huge one. I live in Minneapolis; prefer to stay there and I have a genuine interest in practicing either family law, criminal defense, or municipal/county/state law. I'm also interested in working as legal council for smallish sized companies or possibly even doing estate planning.

I have an UG GPA of 2.8 and after 6 weeks of serious study (15 hours per week) I think realistically anything above a 157-158 will be pushing my upper limits on this test.

Should I just give up? Is any tuition reform likely that will make practicing law from a TTT a realistic option? It seems like everyone getting accepted at TTT's is getting some form of scholarship dollars these days. I'm pretty set on doing this you guys, I think it's my calling. So how in the hell can I make this work?


Keep working on your LSAT. Also, look into government jobs if this is really your dream. After ten years of public service your government loans are forgiven. Explore this route and see if it could help with the financial burden. It will also give you a closer to a 9-5 job so you can be home with family more.

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emciosn
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby emciosn » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:22 am

Bronck wrote:Obviously give it a good faith effort. But, because your GPA is so low, if you can't get a high LSAT score, you're going to have to face the fact that you're not going to become a lawyer because your options will be horrible.


I don't know about that--I think its fair to say not everyone is capable of a 170+ but the LSAT is a very learnable test. Just put in as much time studying over the next months as you can (are you planning on taking in June?) and shoot for 165+ (emphasis on the plus). You need to get a big scholarship at a TT or TTT that is well respected in its region to make it worthwhile (and some on here would still say no) or get a great LSAT and slip into a splitter friendly school int he T25 or so with a half tuition+ scholarship...

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North
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby North » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:25 am

tuffyjohnson wrote:I very much hear and appreciate that advice and I will definitely study my ass off for several more months. But also hear this: not everyone is capable of a 165+. I know what my abilities are and they are not in that range.

Then law school isn't worth it for you. There isn't much demand for lawyers in the areas of law you're interested in and the few jobs there are don't pay well enough to service $250,000 of debt. You can make the same salary and maintain your desired lifestyle doing the work you can get with your BA. Keep your $250,000 and go do that.

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North
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby North » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:26 am

ruralaw wrote:Keep working on your LSAT. Also, look into government jobs if this is really your dream. After ten years of public service your government loans are forgiven. Explore this route and see if it could help with the financial burden. It will also give you a closer to a 9-5 job so you can be home with family more.

Not smart to bet $250,000 plus interest on being able to keep one job for ten years.

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Ruxin1
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby Ruxin1 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:27 am

North wrote:
ruralaw wrote:Keep working on your LSAT. Also, look into government jobs if this is really your dream. After ten years of public service your government loans are forgiven. Explore this route and see if it could help with the financial burden. It will also give you a closer to a 9-5 job so you can be home with family more.

Not smart to bet $250,000 plus interest on being able to keep one job for ten years.


Yeah maybe if anyone's watching the news with these massive budget cuts...

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tuffyjohnson
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby tuffyjohnson » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:29 am

emciosn wrote:
Bronck wrote:Obviously give it a good faith effort. But, because your GPA is so low, if you can't get a high LSAT score, you're going to have to face the fact that you're not going to become a lawyer because your options will be horrible.


I don't know about that--I think its fair to say not everyone is capable of a 170+ but the LSAT is a very learnable test. Just put in as much time studying over the next months as you can (are you planning on taking in June?) and shoot for 165+ (emphasis on the plus). You need to get a big scholarship at a TT or TTT that is well respected in its region to make it worthwhile (and some on here would still say no) or get a great LSAT and slip into a splitter friendly school int he T25 or so with a half tuition+ scholarship...


I am taking JUNE but I only have 5-6 weeks of study in so maybe October would be better. Logic Games are still taking 15 minutes a piece after 70 hours of dedicated games study. That's why I'm wondering if anything beyond 157 is even possible.

ruralaw
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby ruralaw » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:33 am

North wrote:
ruralaw wrote:Keep working on your LSAT. Also, look into government jobs if this is really your dream. After ten years of public service your government loans are forgiven. Explore this route and see if it could help with the financial burden. It will also give you a closer to a 9-5 job so you can be home with family more.

Not smart to bet $250,000 plus interest on being able to keep one job for ten years.



First, $250,000 is an arbitrary number at this point. Also, government jobs are probably the most reliable jobs to be able to keep for 10 years.

ruralaw
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby ruralaw » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:35 am

Ruxin1 wrote:
North wrote:
ruralaw wrote:Keep working on your LSAT. Also, look into government jobs if this is really your dream. After ten years of public service your government loans are forgiven. Explore this route and see if it could help with the financial burden. It will also give you a closer to a 9-5 job so you can be home with family more.

Not smart to bet $250,000 plus interest on being able to keep one job for ten years.


Yeah maybe if anyone's watching the news with these massive budget cuts...


Those budget cuts are in the Federal government right now. Also, CRs are being proposed and will most likely be passed soon because neither party wants any more bad press.

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tuffyjohnson
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby tuffyjohnson » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:35 am

North Dakota Law (10K tuition) is the only thing that makes sense to me. They have reciprocity with MN and the average debt after law school is less than 60K. A 160 could get scholarships too...

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Bronck
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby Bronck » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:44 am

emciosn wrote:
Bronck wrote:Obviously give it a good faith effort. But, because your GPA is so low, if you can't get a high LSAT score, you're going to have to face the fact that you're not going to become a lawyer because your options will be horrible.


I don't know about that--I think its fair to say not everyone is capable of a 170+ but the LSAT is a very learnable test. Just put in as much time studying over the next months as you can (are you planning on taking in June?) and shoot for 165+ (emphasis on the plus). You need to get a big scholarship at a TT or TTT that is well respected in its region to make it worthwhile (and some on here would still say no) or get a great LSAT and slip into a splitter friendly school int he T25 or so with a half tuition+ scholarship...


I never meant to imply that a 170+ is possible for everyone. I was merely saying that he should be putting in a full ~3 months, or whatever the recommended amount of time is, and go in as capable as possible.

canarykb
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby canarykb » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:33 am

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=mn

These are the schools that employ people in MN. So if you want to stay in Minneapolis, these are the only schools to consider, really. Only UMN gives you a greater than 50% chance at getting a legal job. After that, I guess UND & Hamline are schools to consider, but honestly I would only go there if it were free.

I would really focus on raising your LSAT score to get into these places with $$$. You've already identified your problem section: LG, so now you know where you need to put in the work. It sounds like you are getting things right, but running out of time halfway through? That's a great problem to have, because all you need to do is get your speed up, and you have plenty of time to do so. LG is all about making deductions, and making them quickly. This is just a hypothetical, but LG was my best section, because I'm someone who already loves to do logic puzzles. I do crosswords, kenken, sudoku, etc. after work because I enjoy them. I wonder if rather than just endlessly drilling LG, doing some of these type of puzzles on the regular would get you more in the "mode" of making quick deductions and help you speed up on this section. Just something to tru.

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tuffyjohnson
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby tuffyjohnson » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:09 pm

canarykb wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=mn

These are the schools that employ people in MN. So if you want to stay in Minneapolis, these are the only schools to consider, really. Only UMN gives you a greater than 50% chance at getting a legal job. After that, I guess UND & Hamline are schools to consider, but honestly I would only go there if it were free.

I would really focus on raising your LSAT score to get into these places with $$$. You've already identified your problem section: LG, so now you know where you need to put in the work. It sounds like you are getting things right, but running out of time halfway through? That's a great problem to have, because all you need to do is get your speed up, and you have plenty of time to do so. LG is all about making deductions, and making them quickly. This is just a hypothetical, but LG was my best section, because I'm someone who already loves to do logic puzzles. I do crosswords, kenken, sudoku, etc. after work because I enjoy them. I wonder if rather than just endlessly drilling LG, doing some of these type of puzzles on the regular would get you more in the "mode" of making quick deductions and help you speed up on this section. Just something to tru.


Thank you canarykb. I think you are spot-on here, although I might also consider half or 3/4 scholarships from Minneapolis schools if I can do a little better on the LSAT. Yes, I am getting the games correctly answered, it's the time that kills me. I'll try your suggestions!

hopingtogetin
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby hopingtogetin » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:37 pm

tuffyjohnson wrote:
I am taking JUNE but I only have 5-6 weeks of study in so maybe October would be better. Logic Games are still taking 15 minutes a piece after 70 hours of dedicated games study. That's why I'm wondering if anything beyond 157 is even possible.


Try postponing until October and just study all summer. Buy books. Invest in a prep course. Do nothing but study for the LSAT. I studied for about five months, and it boosted me fairly high. Had I devoted more time to it (I was taking classes, working full time, and partying when I could since I had recently turned 21--don't do this!) I probably could have gotten a lot higher than what I did get (167), which got me into some fairly good schools with $$. So you can get above a 160. Maybe you can't crack 170 but with great study habits, you could at least get your 160 or 165, which would make a world of difference with your gpa. Go for it!

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tuffyjohnson
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby tuffyjohnson » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:48 pm

hopingtogetin wrote:
tuffyjohnson wrote:
I am taking JUNE but I only have 5-6 weeks of study in so maybe October would be better. Logic Games are still taking 15 minutes a piece after 70 hours of dedicated games study. That's why I'm wondering if anything beyond 157 is even possible.


So you can get above a 160. !


I hope you're right.

Ti Malice
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby Ti Malice » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:46 pm

tuffyjohnson wrote:I have an UG GPA of 2.8 and after 6 weeks of serious study (15 hours per week) I think realistically anything above a 157-158 will be pushing my upper limits on this test.


Just so you know, that's only semi-serious studying. I understand that it might be all you can manage, but some folks need to put in a lot more time. My LSAT students spent 8-12 hours per week in class alone. The ones who had both the time and motivation (and need) would spend as much as 40 additional hours per week studying outside of class.

timbs4339
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:05 pm

Also reassess your study methods. What are you doing? How are you studying?

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tuffyjohnson
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby tuffyjohnson » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:40 pm

Ti Malice wrote:
tuffyjohnson wrote:I have an UG GPA of 2.8 and after 6 weeks of serious study (15 hours per week) I think realistically anything above a 157-158 will be pushing my upper limits on this test.


Just so you know, that's only semi-serious studying. I understand that it might be all you can manage, but some folks need to put in a lot more time. My LSAT students spent 8-12 hours per week in class alone. The ones who had both the time and motivation (and need) would spend as much as 40 additional hours per week studying outside of class.


Thank you for this. Good to know. I've got a family and full-time job. So it will be tough to get more than 15 hours per week. But maybe I just need to extend how many months of study.

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alwayssunnyinfl
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby alwayssunnyinfl » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:43 pm

It took me well over half a year to hit 170+. Also, to get in and snag money from UMN, you need something more like a 167.

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tuffyjohnson
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby tuffyjohnson » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:56 pm

timbs4339 wrote:Also reassess your study methods. What are you doing? How are you studying?


All games so far as it is my weakness. Read PS twice and Blueprint once. I drill about 3-4 games per day. I'm trying to work through and master each type before moving on. I can do the games - problem is they take 15-18 minutes. It will come you guys I just may need to put the June LSAT off until OCT and really shoot for 165 and hope for UMN. It just seems so far away/impossible right now.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby Rahviveh » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:00 pm

tuffyjohnson wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Also reassess your study methods. What are you doing? How are you studying?


All games so far as it is my weakness. Read PS twice and Blueprint once. I drill about 3-4 games per day. I'm trying to work through and master each type before moving on. I can do the games - problem is they take 15-18 minutes. It will come you guys I just may need to put the June LSAT off until OCT and really shoot for 165 and hope for UMN. It just seems so far away/impossible right now.


Check out Manhattan's LG guide as well. Their methods are really good for both pure sequencing and some grouping games. good luck!

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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Need Serious Advice

Postby fruitoftheloom » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:04 pm

tuffyjohnson wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Also reassess your study methods. What are you doing? How are you studying?


All games so far as it is my weakness. Read PS twice and Blueprint once. I drill about 3-4 games per day. I'm trying to work through and master each type before moving on. I can do the games - problem is they take 15-18 minutes. It will come you guys I just may need to put the June LSAT off until OCT and really shoot for 165 and hope for UMN. It just seems so far away/impossible right now.


There are different methods for graphing logic games. Try Manhattan - it's a different approach that works for some people. The "draw 7 blanks" thing from Powerscores ended up causing me to make a ton of mistakes and lose time. I ended up literally drawing a giant graph on every single logic games puzzle (easier now that they are all on 2 pages) and I would put any immediate clues in the very top of my graph and just draw a line and go from there. I can email you paint photos if you want to see how mine looked. Powerscores says the way I do it is is a "HUGE NONO" but in the end it worked for me.

FYI - games were my weakest area when I started (missing more than half, getting to maybe 2 and throwing my arms up on half). When I took the test in Oct, it was my favorite area and the one area of the test that I could confidently say I missed 0 or 1 consistently.




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