Top Law Schools

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HYP??

What was your major?

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Retake. You were PTing in the 170s, which means you're capable of doing better than a 163. Are you having test day anxiety/stress?

UW is NOT worth sticker price. They haven't released c/o 2012 data yet, but the c/o 2011 data show that only ~50% of grads are getting FTLT jobs. I have a friend who goes there now and he said that it's still pretty bad.

Gonzaga has a similar FTLT rate, but I imagine they place chiefly in Spokane, not Seattle. And yes, your options would certainly be more limited.

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I'd imagine you'd be able to snag a T14 with a 3.2 and an LSAT in the 170s. If you'd get any scholarship money from the T14 is another question altogether, though LSN and other posters may be able to illuminate you more on that.

Even though Seattle is a small/parochial market, I'd imagine a T14 with strong ties would give you a good shot at returning. Moreover, it would expand your job prospects enormously elsewhere. Though, if you only desire to practice in WA, I can see how that wouldn't be the most attractive option (especially at sticker debt, which I would normally not advise anyway).

UW at sticker would simply not be a rational decision.

According to TLS' summary on Gonzaga:"For my class the rough midpoint of the class was 2.80, which means after the first year approximately half the class was no longer eligible for the scholarships they received as incoming students"

I have no idea if this remains to be true, but that would render the stipulations at Gonzaga pretty TTT (plus, you have to deal with the PI requirement). If you went, you'd have to be OK with (a) practicing in Spokane and (b) dropping out if you lose the stipulations.

Also, you aren't getting academia from UW or Gonzaga.

If none of that appeals to you, then law school may just not be the way to go.

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GM544 wrote:You're right that I'm not particularly interested in the T14 at sticker. My odds in WA would still be about the same as what they are out of UW, maybe worse from the lower T14. If you look at profiles of current associates in biglaw in Seattle, there's about equal distribution from UW and upper T14s. Furthermore, in state is much MUCH lower than T14 sticker.

As for the scholarship stipulations. No one has ever failed to meet the GPA requirement for this particular scholarship so I'm not that worried about it, but if I'm below median at GU, then dropping out seems like the only reasonable option. Also, I would definitely be happy practicing in Spokane.

As for academia, of current UW professors, roughly a third got their JD at UW. The number of Gonzaga grads teaching at Gonzaga also might surprise you, but I don't want to go recount right now. I'm not saying it's a likely outcome, but I would like to choose the school that gives me the best shot.

The market for hiring in academia is severely different than it was when a lot of those faculty members were applying for their first positions. And I doubt that U Washington wouldn't throw at least SOME money at a 170+ resident, regardless of GPA.

UW is objectively not worth anything near what you will be paying. You were PT'ing in the 170s - for the love of all that is holy, retake. You have the skills. To leave easy money on the table is just stupid.

Also, academia is not happening from either of these schools. It's just not. Sorry to be blunt.

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The problem (retaking) isn't so much changing the effect on that school, it's whether that school is worth it even at full ride, and the OTHER (more viable) prospects that would open if you did break 170.

GM544 wrote:

alwayssunnyinfl wrote:And I doubt that U Washington wouldn't throw at least SOME money at a 170+ resident, regardless of GPA.

In the last 7 years, two people on LSN have reported scholarships with GPA below 3.3 - 24k with a 170, and 30k with a 165. In general, scholarships from UW appear arbitrary. If I thought a higher score had even a 50/50 shot at leading to money, I would do it. Furthermore, I still feel iffy on whether a retake would actually lead to a higher score, regardless of my PT scores.

LSN is a terribly small sample. You haven't gotten a deal here that you just can't pass up. If you take time off and retake, UW will accept you again in the fall and would gladly charge you full tuition if they can get away with it.

If you have some kind of test anxiety that is keeping you from scoring your true score (which should be in the 170s if your PTs were timed and under simulated test conditions) then you need to conquer that BEFORE law school. 1L isn't the place to be working out test anxiety issues.

GM544 wrote:You're right that I'm not particularly interested in the T14 at sticker. My odds in WA would still be about the same as what they are out of UW, maybe worse from the lower T14. If you look at profiles of current associates in biglaw in Seattle, there's about equal distribution from UW and upper T14s. Furthermore, in state is much MUCH lower than T14 sticker.

As for the scholarship stipulations. No one has ever failed to meet the GPA requirement for this particular scholarship so I'm not that worried about it, but if I'm below median at GU, then dropping out seems like the only reasonable option. Also, I would definitely be happy practicing in Spokane.

As for academia, of current UW professors, roughly a third got their JD at UW. The number of Gonzaga grads teaching at Gonzaga also might surprise you, but I don't want to go recount right now. I'm not saying it's a likely outcome, but I would like to choose the school that gives me the best shot.

There are a few UW grads at UW, yes. It's more like 20%. Most of them are teaching legal writing or clinic courses, or are lecturers, which makes them the second-class citizens of legal academia. The ones that aren't are generally very senior, and 2 of those have an LLM and PhD. And otherwise, there are a TON of Harvard grads, as well as Yale, Michigan, Columbia, and the odd UCLA/Penn.

It's also about 20% at Gonzaga, and only one of those is non-legal writing, non-clinic. And he got his JD in 1977.

It's true that the market will continue to change, but there are not going to be more positions in legal academia and they're not going to become more accessible to people outside the very top schools. In this respect, legal academia is just like all other sectors of academia.

What I'm getting from OP's responses in this thread is that she wants to go to UW, and she wants to go now. Okay. So you don't want to take a year off and retake and you have your heart set on UW.

And please, first of all, don't do babies if you won't be fulfilled when you're 50. It will ruin your life. Just my opinion, but seriously. You want a career, go get a career.

Now, you want UW right now and don't want to lose another year retaking. That said, your practice LSAT scores were amazing and you have one retake left! Why not accept UW if that's what you really want to do, and buy a book and start studying RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE for June. Get that 170 I know you can get, show UW and get them to up your scholarship. TLS very helpfully suggested this advice to me so I'm passing the advice along to you. You can't lose--If you still don't get the score you want, you still go to UW like you clearly wanted. If you do get a great score, you go to UW like you clearly wanted but with more money. You can do it-go for it!

GM544 wrote:
3) Keep doing what I'm doing for a couple years and then quit to have babies.

Pros - Little to no risk, SO willing and able to support me. Cons - End up 50 with no real career, feel like a failure.

I could add a pro: Get to raise your kids and actually have a solid family, something a lot of TLSers will never have. You can always go into some other type of career, get a degree online, and start working again once they're in school.

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GM544 wrote:

hopingtogetin wrote:What I'm getting from OP's responses in this thread is that she wants to go to UW, and she wants to go now. Okay. So you don't want to take a year off and retake and you have your heart set on UW.

And please, first of all, don't do babies if you won't be fulfilled when you're 50. It will ruin your life. Just my opinion, but seriously. You want a career, go get a career.

Now, you want UW right now and don't want to lose another year retaking. That said, your practice LSAT scores were amazing and you have one retake left! Why not accept UW if that's what you really want to do, and buy a book and start studying RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE for June. Get that 170 I know you can get, show UW and get them to up your scholarship. TLS very helpfully suggested this advice to me so I'm passing the advice along to you. You can't lose--If you still don't get the score you want, you still go to UW like you clearly wanted. If you do get a great score, you go to UW like you clearly wanted but with more money. You can do it-go for it!

You're right about the babies plan. I want a career. At this point, not going has been ruled out.

Note: I would consider some other fantastic career path, but I've gone through everything I can think of and law has won out. Because, by the way, there's a lot of talk about how terrible the legal market is right now, but the reality is that the economy in general is pretty terrible right now. It's not like there are many careers where a degree=a job except some medical or tech fields and neither of those appeal to me, nor do I have the skills.

As for waiting a year. I am particularly opposed because I will already be 31 when I graduate and I definitely want kids. Yes, it's just one year, but that one year could end up mattering a lot. I want my career to be established enough that having kids won't completely kill it. If I could really see the value in doing it, I would, but thus far I don't think it's worth it.

As for the June retake plan, that's actually advice I've given to others as well. It hadn't occurred to me because I still just can't imagine that it will make a difference in my case, but I do have almost nothing to lose. If there is anyone who has gotten more money from UW with a higher score, please let me know!

I suppose I could remind you that at UW you have a 50% chance of not actually establishing a career and be just GAPED by $160k debt, but hey, what do I know.

GM544 wrote:
LSAT: 163 then 162, studied for 5-8 months each time, PT 172-175, expected better
GPA: Sucks. 3.2 from HYP. Didn't plan ahead.

OP, we have the same LSAT problem, except you're actually PTing a few points higher than I am. I think you should take the June LSAT and assess your options then.

hopingtogetin wrote:Now, you want UW right now and don't want to lose another year retaking. That said, your practice LSAT scores were amazing and you have one retake left! Why not accept UW if that's what you really want to do, and buy a book and start studying RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE for June. Get that 170 I know you can get, show UW and get them to up your scholarship. TLS very helpfully suggested this advice to me so I'm passing the advice along to you. You can't lose--If you still don't get the score you want, you still go to UW like you clearly wanted. If you do get a great score, you go to UW like you clearly wanted but with more money. You can do it-go for it!

This. So much this.

Don't listen to that rad guy. You can just IBR or get a job teaching if it doesn't work out.