Dayton or Chase

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:48 pm

OP, these guys aren't trying to be jerks by giving you this advice. They simply don't want you to make what could very easily become a life ruining decision.

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romothesavior
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby romothesavior » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:56 pm

CaptainLeela wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:Too bad a lot of others on TLS are not as judicious about posting their advice, especially the ones with such a low post count. I guess if the advice is good and accurate, then it doesn't really matter.


Very long time lurker. I have a decent idea of how not to sound like a jackass on here (it's also not terribly hard).

Seriously, post more... people need to hear that message. "I dont want biglaw, not everyone is an elitist T14 person just trying to get rich. I'll be happy with 60-80k in a small or midsized firm from my TTT." is a pretty common schtick around here. They think people going to big firms are just being jerks and crapping on small lawfirms, when in reality, there's a difference between good small law and shit law, it's just incredibly hard to land a good, high five figure job at a smaller firm as a law student. I think it would be helpful for someone who has worked in shitlaw to smack some sense into them, because they often dont want to hear it from law students who went to higher ranked schools.

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CaptainLeela
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby CaptainLeela » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:22 pm

romothesavior wrote:
CaptainLeela wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:Too bad a lot of others on TLS are not as judicious about posting their advice, especially the ones with such a low post count. I guess if the advice is good and accurate, then it doesn't really matter.


Very long time lurker. I have a decent idea of how not to sound like a jackass on here (it's also not terribly hard).

Seriously, post more... people need to hear that message. "I dont want biglaw, not everyone is an elitist T14 person just trying to get rich. I'll be happy with 60-80k in a small or midsized firm from my TTT." is a pretty common schtick around here. They think people going to big firms are just being jerks and crapping on small lawfirms, when in reality, there's a difference between good small law and shit law, it's just incredibly hard to land a good, high five figure job at a smaller firm as a law student. I think it would be helpful for someone who has worked in shitlaw to smack some sense into them, because they often dont want to hear it from law students who went to higher ranked schools.


Well, if people think that perspective will be valuable I'll probably write something up longer/more comprehensive tonight and post it here.

Also, funny enough, the partner just popped in. They are hiring a 3L ranked #3 or 4 from the local TTT for the summer and sending him to a far-flung satellite office if he passes the bar...because he can't find another job. It really is bleak amigos.

View10
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby View10 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:17 pm

I think most of you don't understand what I'm trying to say...

I know going to either Chase or Dayton is not going to land me a $60k or more job at a firm. I know several graduates of Chase and I've seen far more lack of success than anything else. HOWEVER, I don't want to work for another law firm like many of you keep assuming; I want to have my own firm. I intend to work for the first few years, knowing it will suck and I won't get paid very well, to gain experience and then go out on my own practicing criminal/civil litigation. At that point $50-60K would be acceptable to me.

In my experience through family, when you have your own firm, clients don't really give a shit where you went to law school; they care about how much you'll try to help them. The law school one goes to only matters if you want to work for someone else. But please, prove me wrong. I want other opinions or I would not have posted anything. I want all the input, good or bad, I can get.

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romothesavior
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby romothesavior » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:50 pm

How do you expect to service your debt on ~30k?

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TatteredDignity
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby TatteredDignity » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:54 pm

romothesavior wrote:How do you expect to service your debt on ~30k?


With hopes and dreams.

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WisemanAEKDB
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby WisemanAEKDB » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:54 pm

View10 wrote:I think most of you don't understand what I'm trying to say...

I know going to either Chase or Dayton is not going to land me a $60k or more job at a firm. I know several graduates of Chase and I've seen far more lack of success than anything else. HOWEVER, I don't want to work for another law firm like many of you keep assuming; I want to have my own firm. I intend to work for the first few years, knowing it will suck and I won't get paid very well, to gain experience and then go out on my own practicing criminal/civil litigation. At that point $50-60K would be acceptable to me.

In my experience through family, when you have your own firm, clients don't really give a shit where you went to law school; they care about how much you'll try to help them. The law school one goes to only matters if you want to work for someone else. But please, prove me wrong. I want other opinions or I would not have posted anything. I want all the input, good or bad, I can get.


It sounds like you want to own a business. Why not go into business, work for a bit in the field, attempt some entrepreneurial work, potentially get an MBA and save yourself a lot of trouble as opposed to getting a JD?

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Micdiddy
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby Micdiddy » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:11 pm

View10 wrote:I think most of you don't understand what I'm trying to say...

I know going to either Chase or Dayton is not going to land me a $60k or more job at a firm. I know several graduates of Chase and I've seen far more lack of success than anything else. HOWEVER, I don't want to work for another law firm like many of you keep assuming; I want to have my own firm. I intend to work for the first few years, knowing it will suck and I won't get paid very well, to gain experience and then go out on my own practicing criminal/civil litigation. At that point $50-60K would be acceptable to me.

In my experience through family, when you have your own firm, clients don't really give a shit where you went to law school; they care about how much you'll try to help them. The law school one goes to only matters if you want to work for someone else. But please, prove me wrong. I want other opinions or I would not have posted anything. I want all the input, good or bad, I can get.


I would argue if you want to go straight from law school to your own practice, where you went to school is the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS.
Sure, you probably have this general idea that a lot of lawyers you know with their own practice never have to say "and I went to Harvard!" 'cause no one asks or cares. Why? BECAUSE THE DUDE HAS 20 YEARS WORK EXPERIENCE.
What are you going to tell your clients? I have ZERO experience, but choose me over all the other lawyers charging the same price, doing the same work, who have done it their whole life, because I WENT TO CHASE!
Going straight from law school to your own practice seems like the riskiest proposition of all. The only way I can see it working out is if you can at least say you're a t10 graduate. Even then, a client would be insane to choose you over the other guys with 342325243 years of experience.

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banjo
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby banjo » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:33 pm

Attending a top law school makes it easier to get the requisite experience to start your own firm. The ABA data confirms as much: http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

Additionally, a top law school gives you a better shot at a large firm job (again, see the ABA data). The contacts you make at your large firm might give you some of their scraps, which will help you sustain and build your own firm.

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cinephile
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby cinephile » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:52 am

Years ago I was teaching LSAT prep and I worked alongside another guy doing the same thing. He was a recent graduate of Chase and the only job he could get was teaching the LSAT.

Seriously. You know this is a bad idea, that's why you're so defensive about it. Go to UK or OSU in-state with scholly, or the very least UC.

thethe
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby thethe » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:55 pm

View10 wrote:I appreciate many of the responses given here. But I disagree with most.

What most of you seem to routinely forget about law school is that (1) The LSAT, along with law school credentials are wildly inaccurate and worthless; (2) Where a person goes to school has little to do with success in comparison to that person's motivation; and (3) student loan repayment plans.

To elaborate:

(1) LSAC has admitted that the LSAT has only a .46 correlation to law school performance. Plain and simple, a person with a perfect 180 is literally a coin flip from doing either good or bad in law school based on that score. Likewise a person with a 122 LSAT actually has the odds in his/her favor that they could end up as the top of their class despite a horrible LSAT score. So why then would law schools put so much weight on the LSAT score? MONEY.

(2) I personally know a Harvard graduate who is terrible at law and makes nearly nothing while at the same time a Chase graduate started a successful firm and lives very well. I'm sure most of know similar stories. It is just crazy that most of you put so much weight into getting into only T100 or T14 schools when it doesn't matter either way. You could go to Yale, graduate top 10% and land a $160L job but then act like a moron and get fired 6 months later. Whether you bet on black or red, there's still a small chance it will land on green.

Additional note on this point: I have never understood why most people don't realize that the rules apply to them - when only %10 of law graduates will make over $90K starting out, why do 60% of you want to go to a T14 school?

(3) Grad plus loans fall under the 15% repayment plan. After 25 years the remaining debt is forgiven. Accordingly, who cares about how much school costs? You could graduate with $2,000,000.00 (of course I'm exaggerating here) and you would still be fine if you, more than likely, don't get that $160k and instead get the more realistic $60K a year job.


In summary: the debt doesn't matter, the school doesn't matter, and the LSAT is a lie. So why not go to the school that closest to home? It doesn't fucking matter.

1.) That is among similar LSAT scores. People with a 175 aren't at Dayton. The fact that a 175 vs. a 170 at Georgetown has any correlation is indicative the test has some measuring capacity not be scoffed at. There's no real data on your point as we don't see a 180 competing vs. a 122.

2.) A doctor can screw up and lose their license and make less than a janitor too. The person who gets the 160k job is still a much better bet than the unemployed grad to make more in 2 or 3 years. It's like comparing a rookie QB who makes the pro bowl in his first year vs. a rookie QB who stinks. In 5 years it's possible Brandon Weedon will be better than Andrew Luck. Luck can blow out a knee, die, anything. But which 1 would you bet your life on?

Including clerkships that ultimately lead to ~200k employment, about 50% of the top 14 will get those 90k jobs. Only about 1% of your TTTT will.

Nothing is guaranteed. It's always about risks vs. rewards. Why is betting on the Lions to win the superbowl not even $ to the Patriots every year? By your logic, every NFL team has a 1:32 chance of winning the superbowl.

3.) This is just wow. It doesn't matter because you're going to screw over taxpayers. Are you a leech? You have no desire to carry your own weight because in 25 yrs you can let our economy get worse? Why do you want to be a lawyer? I'm not saying you need to be a do good help everyone Jesus type of person, but to have such entitlement that you feel no need to carry your own weight makes me believe you are just a bad person. People default on loans, and burden others, but they don't expect to. You actually don't seem to mind and have no shame.

timbs4339
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:10 pm

Even if you do get a job making ~40K, it's not going to give you the capital you need to start your own firm. You'll need six months business and living expenses, and an ad budget to get any exposure at all with the glut of lawyers. You won't be able to get a small business loan with that much debt. Getting the experience is probably one of the easiest things about going solo.

LOL Skool
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby LOL Skool » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:18 pm

I got to chime in on this one: I briefly attended UD on scholarship. It was close to home and I lived rent-free, it sounded like a great plan. Only problem was that you are not taken seriously by any firm outside of Dayton or any decent firm inside Dayton. It was an absolutely horrible experience. I eventually transferred out and it was one of the best decisions I ever made - I could tell a huge different in seeking employment at my new school. Bottom line: do not go to UD under ANY circumstance.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby NoodleyOne » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:28 pm

I'm late to this. OP is a special snowflake, right?

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Danger Zone
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Re: Dayton or Chase

Postby Danger Zone » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:31 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:OP, these guys aren't trying to be jerks by giving you this advice. They simply don't want you to make what could very easily become a life ruining decision.

Irony.




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