Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school should I attend?

Harvard (15k)
27
38%
Chicago (Ruby)
45
63%
 
Total votes: 72

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:08 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Yea, I would probably take the Ruby -- its guaranteed, after all -- unless you get really hopped up over mad prestige and want to run for office.


So, yes, it is expensive to get a HLS degree (especially if you don't get financial aid or LIPP), but it does offer better career prospects.

Also, what exactly are you going to spend the money from the Ruby on later, anyway? A Rolls-Royce? Pretty sure none of us are going to be poor or ever have to worry about material subsistence, so the question really becomes: what is more valuable to you, a Harvard degree or a larger home, nicer car, luxury goods of various kinds, etc.?

This assumes a HLS won't net you more than 200k NPV over the course of your career (there is a solid chance it will - can you wait for two marshmallows?).

There is no more shallowness in wanting the prestige of a HLS degree than in wanting to be rich.

:x

brb. I'm going to go through my 0L posts and see if I said things like this.

20141023
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby 20141023 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:11 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:16 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Yea, I would probably take the Ruby -- its guaranteed, after all -- unless you get really hopped up over mad prestige and want to run for office.


So, yes, it is expensive to get a HLS degree (especially if you don't get financial aid or LIPP), but it does offer better career prospects.

Also, what exactly are you going to spend the money from the Ruby on later, anyway? A Rolls-Royce? Pretty sure none of us are going to be poor or ever have to worry about material subsistence, so the question really becomes: what is more valuable to you, a Harvard degree or a larger home, nicer car, luxury goods of various kinds, etc.?

This assumes a HLS won't net you more than 200k NPV over the course of your career (there is a solid chance it will - can you wait for two marshmallows?).

There is no more shallowness in wanting the prestige of a HLS degree than in wanting to be rich.


Dude what are you talking about, two of my friends at HLS don't have an SA. One guy has decided to go to medical school after HLS because he got shut out. Or the 3L's who got no offered this summer and you see them at OCI hoping for anything. Yes an overwhelming number of people from HLS will be fine but some people can't hack Big Law. What happens when you get asked to leave after year 2 with 120k of debt left and now you're working Midlaw making 100k. Lipp won't really really help you much at that salary but you're only taking home 70k after taxes. Then you still have about 25k of debt payments which leaves you with ~45k. That's not rich at all and that is actually a pretty good outcome.
Last edited by unc0mm0n1 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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UtilityMonster
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby UtilityMonster » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:33 pm

Emma. wrote:You really think the pay differential between Harvard and UChi is going to come anywhere close to making up for $180K + compounding interest?


More doors are opened with a HLS degree, especially if you finish toward the bottom of your class. The degree has greater portability. I would be interested in seeing what the average income of HLS grads vs. Chicago grads is over the course of their 30-40 year careers. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is a 200k+ difference, on average. Even if the difference is smaller, that should still be taken into consideration. While Ruby recipients who got into Harvard will probably perform better in school and career, there is still a great deal of uncertainty. I doubt that Chicago students are much less intelligent than Harvard students, and with fiercer competition at Chicago, one will probably have to perform at a much higher level to finish in the top of the class.

Emma. wrote:I know that as an 0L the prestige factor of HLS is really hard to turn down. It seems way more appealing to tell your friends that you are going to Harvard than University of Chicago, and that creates a pretty strong confirmation bias. It'd be great if you guys that are making this decision could talk to recent HLS grads who paid close to a full ride and ask them what they would have done if they had been in your shoes.

Don't underestimate the benefits of being debt free. The "either way I'm going to be super rich so the difference is just me driving a Rolls or a Mercedes" is pretty unrealistic.


I have talked to HLS students who turned down the Ruby and not a one told me he/she regretted the decision. Perhaps the same could be said about people who took the Ruby, though.

In regards to your last point, I'm not saying either way you will be super rich, I'm saying you will not have to worry about providing for your basic needs, and so the question becomes what matters to you more, greater material well-being or the prestige and career benefits of a HLS degree.

Bronck wrote:Wat?

Yes, HLS provides more security, but there is going to be significant overlap in career outcomes between H and C. $250k in debt (over $300k after you've paid it all off) is nothing to scoff at. Most people are out of biglaw after 3 years. Have fun with $100-150k in debt looming over your head while you're lateraling as opposed to pocketing and investing the money if you went to Chicago.


Agreed there is significant overlap, but a HLS degree confers higher earning potential and more options than UChicago + Ruby at corresponding ranks in the class. Also, not everyone who attends HLS will take on 250k in debt.

unc0mm0n1 wrote:With a Ruby you do three years of Big Law save up 150k and go and save the world while not having to live like a pauper. Or you can take a non legal job with an NGO and not worry that LRAP won't cover it.


Pauper is an inappropriate word here. I doubt most people who graduate from HLS with large debt loads have to live a lifestyle any of us would consider modest.

Also, Harvard is much better for PI type work.

JollyGreenGiant wrote: :x

brb. I'm going to go through my 0L posts and see if I said things like this.


I hardly expect unbiased opinion from a Chicago student.

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Emma.
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Emma. » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:34 pm

JollyGreenGiant wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Yea, I would probably take the Ruby -- its guaranteed, after all -- unless you get really hopped up over mad prestige and want to run for office.


So, yes, it is expensive to get a HLS degree (especially if you don't get financial aid or LIPP), but it does offer better career prospects.

Also, what exactly are you going to spend the money from the Ruby on later, anyway? A Rolls-Royce? Pretty sure none of us are going to be poor or ever have to worry about material subsistence, so the question really becomes: what is more valuable to you, a Harvard degree or a larger home, nicer car, luxury goods of various kinds, etc.?

This assumes a HLS won't net you more than 200k NPV over the course of your career (there is a solid chance it will - can you wait for two marshmallows?).

There is no more shallowness in wanting the prestige of a HLS degree than in wanting to be rich.

:x

brb. I'm going to go through my 0L posts and see if I said things like this.


Lol

Say OP gets some aid from HLS and has a loan balance of only $160K at graduation. The payments with interest would be something like $22,000 per year for 10 years. The NPV of 10 years of loan payments (discounted at prime + 2%) is around ($169,000). The NPV of the $10K per year from UChi is something like $27K. So in NPV terms—provided of course that OP can keep his or her loans to $160K—then UtilityMonster is right to say the difference is right around $200K. If we're discounting everything to NPV though, OP is going to have to earn a LOT more over his or her career to balance that out. Let's assume OP starts earning $10K more per year, right at graduation. We have no evidence to suggest that this is a likely outcome for HLS grads over UChi grads, but lets make the assumption just for the sake of argument. If we further assume that this $10K differential grows at 2% per year then over the course of a 40 career that would be a $600K difference. But discount that back to present value and you are only looking at $188K.

So even if you are confident in that earnings differential it is still a negative NPV proposition to attend HLS. The problem is that earnings differential is totally fictional. Most UChi and HLS grads are going to be on the same lockstep pay scale.

Edit: I actually screwed this calculation up, because I was thinking of the stipend as a positive when really it'll just go to reduce OP's debt. So if we eliminate the +$27K in NPV from the stipend you are left with a $169K difference, and then if you believe in the $10K growing at 2% income differential then HLS is a slightly positive NPV proposition over UChi. This mistake is probably counterbalanced by the fact that I used a pretty low discount rate throughout these calculations. Prime is historically low. If we raised the discount rate a little then it would almost certainly make UChi more attractive.
Last edited by Emma. on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Emma. » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:36 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:

More doors are opened with a HLS degree, especially if you finish toward the bottom of your class.



UtilityMonster wrote:
Agreed there is significant overlap, but a HLS degree confers higher earning potential and more options than UChicago + Ruby at corresponding ranks in the class.


What evidence do you have to support these statements?

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby bizzybone1313 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:37 pm

I wouldn't attend Harvard unless you have real high ambitions like being a U.S. Senator, professor at a T-10 school or want to practice international law. The Ruby at Chicago is pretty ridiculous. You are in a tough spot though. It is difficult to turn down HLS.

Don't be a douche OP-- come back to TLS and tells us what you ultimately decided to do. It seems like a lot of people that create these type of threads never come back and tell everyone where they ended up.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby UtilityMonster » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:44 pm

Emma. wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:

More doors are opened with a HLS degree, especially if you finish toward the bottom of your class.



UtilityMonster wrote:
Agreed there is significant overlap, but a HLS degree confers higher earning potential and more options than UChicago + Ruby at corresponding ranks in the class.


What evidence do you have to support these statements?


Well, a higher percentage of students get federal clerkships at Harvard. Harvard has placed in academia better than Chicago has proportionately over the last few years. According to Martha Minow (who is obviously a dubious source but I doubt she would just BS this) Harvard Law actually had its best hiring year ever last year, due to a flight to quality among employers in the depressed legal market. Harvard confers a significant advantage for PI work. The fact that Harvard's desirability among law students would be almost entirely pointless if CCN offered the exact same job prospects.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby thisiswater » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:47 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Yea, I would probably take the Ruby -- its guaranteed, after all -- unless you get really hopped up over mad prestige and want to run for office.


So, yes, it is expensive to get a HLS degree (especially if you don't get financial aid or LIPP), but it does offer better career prospects.

Also, what exactly are you going to spend the money from the Ruby on later, anyway? A Rolls-Royce? Pretty sure none of us are going to be poor or ever have to worry about material subsistence, so the question really becomes: what is more valuable to you, a Harvard degree or a larger home, nicer car, luxury goods of various kinds, etc.?

This assumes a HLS won't net you more than 200k NPV over the course of your career (there is a solid chance it will - can you wait for two marshmallows?).

There is no more shallowness in wanting the prestige of a HLS degree than in wanting to be rich.


A Ruby (which I won't get) would give me flexibility. I'm not a K-JD and I'll be way closer to 30 than 20 when I graduate law school. Maybe after few years working when I have my first child I'll want to take some time off. A Ruby lets me do that. A Ruby lets me leave big law early, or even not do it at all and not worry about my loan debts. This bullshit trying to frame people taking scholarships as only wanting luxury goods is just that, complete bullshit.

Life doesn't always take you where you think it will. I would think being free of that level of loan debt allows you to adapt much more easily. And, if you end up in lockstep bigLaw , as you almost certainly will from either school, then the UChi and Harvard kids are making exactly the same money and the people with a Ruby are way way ahead
Last edited by thisiswater on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Emma.
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Emma. » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:50 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:
Emma. wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:

More doors are opened with a HLS degree, especially if you finish toward the bottom of your class.



UtilityMonster wrote:
Agreed there is significant overlap, but a HLS degree confers higher earning potential and more options than UChicago + Ruby at corresponding ranks in the class.


What evidence do you have to support these statements?


Well, a higher percentage of students get federal clerkships at Harvard. Harvard has placed in academia better than Chicago has proportionately over the last few years. According to Martha Minow (who is obviously a dubious source but I doubt she would just BS this) Harvard Law actually had its best hiring year ever last year, due to a flight to quality among employers in the depressed legal market. Harvard confers a significant advantage for PI work. The fact that Harvard's desirability among law students would be almost entirely pointless if CCN offered the exact same job prospects.


Wait, you haven't really said anything that supports your premises. Pretty sure HLS does't place any better in fed clerkships and academia than UChi for people near the bottom of the class.

I'm pretty sure UChicago had a strong hiring year last year too, the only thing that should matter is the hiring differential between the two, not whether HLS' hiring was strong or even its "best ever."

If you think "flight to quality" means employers are really distinguishing between the "high quality" of HLS over the "low quality" of UChi, then you are pretty deluded.

Finally, you think more 0Ls finding HLS more desirable proves its value?

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby UtilityMonster » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:53 pm

thisiswater wrote:A Ruby (which I won't get) would give me flexibility. I'm not a K-JD and I'll be way closer to 30 than 20 when I graduate law school. Maybe after few years working when I have my first child I'll want to take some time off. A Ruby lets me do that. A Ruby lets me leave big law early, or even not do it at all and not worry about my loan debts. This bullshit trying to frame people taking scholarships as only wanting luxury goods is just that, complete bullshit.


Well, if I planned to go to law school and then have a child and stop working, I'd probably take the Ruby as well. Of course, let's not forget HLS has the LIPP if you don't plan on doing big law.

Certainly there are situations where the Ruby is the correct choice over Harvard (for instance if one has debt from undergrad). I just disagree with this idea that the Ruby is usually the correct decision, or is the correct decision in the OP's case.

In most people's situation, it comes down to whether or not you want HLS prestige and career options or more money.

edit: Forgot to mention that I have not heard anyone suggest that Chicago is a more enjoyable school to attend than Harvard.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Bronck » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:57 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:
thisiswater wrote:A Ruby (which I won't get) would give me flexibility. I'm not a K-JD and I'll be way closer to 30 than 20 when I graduate law school. Maybe after few years working when I have my first child I'll want to take some time off. A Ruby lets me do that. A Ruby lets me leave big law early, or even not do it at all and not worry about my loan debts. This bullshit trying to frame people taking scholarships as only wanting luxury goods is just that, complete bullshit.


Well, if I planned to go to law school and then have a child and stop working, I'd probably take the Ruby as well. Of course, let's not forget HLS has the LIPP if you don't plan on doing big law.

Certainly there are situations where the Ruby is the correct choice over Harvard (for instance if one has debt from undergrad). I just disagree with this idea that the Ruby is usually the correct decision, or is the correct decision in the OP's case.

In most people's situation, it comes down to whether or not you want HLS prestige and career options or more money.

edit: Forgot to mention that I have not heard anyone suggest that Chicago is a more enjoyable school to attend than Harvard.


No law school is enjoyable to attend

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby bizzybone1313 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:00 pm

Bronck wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:
thisiswater wrote:A Ruby (which I won't get) would give me flexibility. I'm not a K-JD and I'll be way closer to 30 than 20 when I graduate law school. Maybe after few years working when I have my first child I'll want to take some time off. A Ruby lets me do that. A Ruby lets me leave big law early, or even not do it at all and not worry about my loan debts. This bullshit trying to frame people taking scholarships as only wanting luxury goods is just that, complete bullshit.


Well, if I planned to go to law school and then have a child and stop working, I'd probably take the Ruby as well. Of course, let's not forget HLS has the LIPP if you don't plan on doing big law.

Certainly there are situations where the Ruby is the correct choice over Harvard (for instance if one has debt from undergrad). I just disagree with this idea that the Ruby is usually the correct decision, or is the correct decision in the OP's case.

In most people's situation, it comes down to whether or not you want HLS prestige and career options or more money.

edit: Forgot to mention that I have not heard anyone suggest that Chicago is a more enjoyable school to attend than Harvard.


No law school is enjoyable to attend


Not even Yale? Bill Clinton skipped some of his time at Yale to go work on some political campaign.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby thisiswater » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:01 pm

OP, I know that I would take the RTK if I was set on PI because of name recognition. If I was less sure I would go for the Ruby

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby UtilityMonster » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:04 pm

Emma. wrote:Wait, you haven't really said anything that supports your premises. Pretty sure HLS does't place any better in fed clerkships and academia than UChi for people near the bottom of the class.


From what I have gathered, people with straight Ps can get good jobs coming out of HLS. People with low grades in Chicago's grading system do not.

Emma. wrote:I'm pretty sure UChicago had a strong hiring year last year too, the only thing that should matter is the hiring differential between the two, not whether HLS' hiring was strong or even its "best ever."


Do you have the data on that? I don't.

Emma. wrote:If you think "flight to quality" means employers are really distinguishing between the "high quality" of HLS over the "low quality" of UChi, then you are pretty deluded.


The implication is not that Chicago is low quality, merely that HLS is high quality and has unparalleled name recognition, which is important for firms because it is important for clients.

Emma. wrote:Finally, you think more 0Ls finding HLS more desirable proves its value?


Doesn't prove it, but it would be utterly bizarre if CCN grads had the same job prospects that HLS grads have, even at a single level in the schools' classes. It would prove so much common TLS wisdom wrong, as well as what actual attorneys have told me.
Last edited by UtilityMonster on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:04 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:I hardly expect unbiased opinion from a Chicago student.

I looked your LSN. You aren't exactly unbiased, either. I don't post here as UChicago recruiter. There are some definitely shitty parts about the school. It also doesn't really matter to me whether OP attends. I am just trying to help the guy as I am probably in a much better position to do so now than when I was a 0L.

When I was a 0L, I would've taken Harvard over Chicago in almost any scenario. I mean, it's Harvard. It's Reese Witherspoon. It's Obama. Dat lay prestige.

I am a 3L. I now realize that the difference between Chicago and Harvard to legal employers is nearly nothing. It's probably not worth $75k, and it's certainly not worth a full-ride. There's a reason you haven't been able to back up your assertions with any data. Again, do you actually want to be a lawyer and do a legal job (rather than say, run for office)? If so, you probably won't see a difference in outcomes by choosing Chicago over Harvard.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Dr. Dre » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:06 pm

ManOfTheMinute wrote:Nobody knows what a Ruby Scholar is. People know what HYS are.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby UtilityMonster » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:06 pm

JollyGreenGiant wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:I hardly expect unbiased opinion from a Chicago student.

I looked your LSN. You aren't exactly unbiased, either.


How exactly am I biased? To what LSN do you refer?

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby thisiswater » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:09 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:
Emma. wrote:Wait, you haven't really said anything that supports your premises. Pretty sure HLS does't place any better in fed clerkships and academia than UChi for people near the bottom of the class.


From what I have gathered, people with straight Ps can get good jobs coming out of HLS. People with low grades in Chicago's grading system do not.

Emma. wrote:I'm pretty sure UChicago had a strong hiring year last year too, the only thing that should matter is the hiring differential between the two, not whether HLS' hiring was strong or even its "best ever."


Do you have the data on that? I don't.

Emma. wrote:If you think "flight to quality" means employers are really distinguishing between the "high quality" of HLS over the "low quality" of UChi, then you are pretty deluded.


The implication is not that Chicago is low quality, merely that HLS is high quality and has unparalleled name recognition, which is important for firms because it is important for clients.

Emma. wrote:Finally, you think more 0Ls finding HLS more desirable proves its value?


Doesn't prove it, but it would be utterly bizarre if CCN had the same job prospects that HLS, even at a single level in the schools' classes. It would prove so much common TLS wisdom wrong, as well as what actually attorneys have told me.


It would prove NONE of the common TLS wisdom wrong. Common TLS wisdom says that if all things are the same (this includes money) and you're in the T14 go higher ranked. The money isn't the same here at all. Every cycle there are tons of these threads where actual lawyers and law students come in and encourage people to take the Hamilton or the Ruby or the RTK or whatever the specific scholarship is over slightly higher ranked schools. That's the common TLS wisdom

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:09 pm

I must've clicked someone else's profile...further establishing the deficiency in UChicago students.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby UtilityMonster » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:11 pm

thisiswater wrote:It would prove NONE of the common TLS wisdom wrong. Common TLS wisdom says that if all things are the same (this includes money) and you're in the T14 go higher ranked. The money isn't the same here at all. Every cycle there are tons of these threads where actual lawyers and law students come in and encourage people to take the Hamilton or the Ruby or the RTK or whatever the specific scholarship is over slightly higher ranked schools. That's the common TLS wisdom


Are you responding to me, or this guy?

Image

The point regarded whether Harvard conferred better career prospects than CCN.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Emma. » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:12 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:
Emma. wrote:Wait, you haven't really said anything that supports your premises. Pretty sure HLS does't place any better in fed clerkships and academia than UChi for people near the bottom of the class.


From what I have gathered, people with straight Ps can get good jobs coming out of HLS. People with low grades in Chicago's grading system do not.

Emma. wrote:I'm pretty sure UChicago had a strong hiring year last year too, the only thing that should matter is the hiring differential between the two, not whether HLS' hiring was strong or even its "best ever."


Do you have the data on that? I don't.

Emma. wrote:If you think "flight to quality" means employers are really distinguishing between the "high quality" of HLS over the "low quality" of UChi, then you are pretty deluded.


The implication is not that Chicago is low quality, merely that HLS is high quality and has unparalleled name recognition, which is important for firms because it is important for clients.

Emma. wrote:Finally, you think more 0Ls finding HLS more desirable proves its value?


Doesn't prove it, but it would be utterly bizarre if CCN had the same job prospects that HLS, even at a single level in the schools' classes. It would prove so much common TLS wisdom wrong, as well as what actually attorneys have told me.


So the fact is you actually have nothing to support your argument that there are huge disparities in opportunity between HLS and UChi?

I've actually talked to hiring partners who are really hesitant to hire people with straight Ps from HLS or other P/HP schools. That grading system is great when the legal market is strong, but when firms aren't trying to hire everyone with a pulse from the top schools it actually serves to protect the people at the very bottom of the class at the expense of people who were always right around median. You are simply wrong about the fact that people with poor grades don't get jobs out of UChi. Plenty of firms hire well below median at UChi. They apparently like the fact that they can tell whether someone is just below median or basically getting straight Cs.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Dr. Dre » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:16 pm

thisiswater wrote:Every cycle there are tons of these threads where actual lawyers and law students come in and encourage people to take the Hamilton or the Ruby or the RTK or whatever the specific scholarship is over slightly higher ranked schools. That's the common TLS wisdom


Unless you get into Yale.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby UtilityMonster » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:21 pm

Emma. wrote:So the fact is you actually have nothing to support your argument that there are huge disparities in opportunity between HLS and UChi?


I never said there were "huge" disparities. If you have the data on employment, I'd love to examine it. What would be most helpful, though, would be to compare all HLS grads' income in different career tracts to all Chicago grads' income. It is impossible to discuss how many more options HLS grads get (if any) than Chicago grads, but I suspect there are real differences there.

Emma. wrote:I've actually talked to hiring partners who are really hesitant to hire people with straight Ps from HLS or other P/HP schools. That grading system is great when the legal market is strong, but when firms aren't trying to hire everyone with a pulse from the top schools it actually serves to protect the people at the very bottom of the class at the expense of people who were always right around median. You are simply wrong about the fact that people with poor grades don't get jobs out of UChi. Plenty of firms hire well below median at UChi. They apparently like the fact that they can tell whether someone is just below median or basically getting straight Cs.


I never said people with bad grades from Chicago don't get jobs, I said they don't get good jobs, at least, relative to what HLS grads with P's get. Also, HLS has LP's (which are rarely given out) that help distinguish mediocre students from poor students, alleviating some fears among employers.

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Emma.
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Emma. » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:25 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:
Emma. wrote:So the fact is you actually have nothing to support your argument that there are huge disparities in opportunity between HLS and UChi?


I never said there were "huge" disparities. If you have the data on employment, I'd love to examine it. What would be most helpful, though, would be to compare all HLS grads' income in different career tracts to all Chicago grads' income. It is impossible to discuss how many more options HLS grads get (if any) than Chicago grads, but I suspect there are real differences there.

Emma. wrote:I've actually talked to hiring partners who are really hesitant to hire people with straight Ps from HLS or other P/HP schools. That grading system is great when the legal market is strong, but when firms aren't trying to hire everyone with a pulse from the top schools it actually serves to protect the people at the very bottom of the class at the expense of people who were always right around median. You are simply wrong about the fact that people with poor grades don't get jobs out of UChi. Plenty of firms hire well below median at UChi. They apparently like the fact that they can tell whether someone is just below median or basically getting straight Cs.


I never said people with bad grades from Chicago don't get jobs, I said they don't get good jobs, at least, relative to what HLS grads with P's get. Also, HLS has LP's (which are rarely given out) that help distinguish mediocre students from poor students, alleviating some fears among employers.


Lol. You keep saying this stuff about the relative differences between employment prospects, but if there really was anything to back this up don't you think there might be some data floating around? I know you "suspect" that there are way more options for HLS grads, but theres a good chance your suspicions aren't borne out by the facts.

If anything, HLS might give the very top students a better shot at something super prestigious. If there is anything to support firms going deeper into HLS class than UChi's I have yet to see it. But here's the problem. Look at my NPV figures on the last page. Say instead that HLS gives you a 10% greater chance than UChi of this incredible job that pays $100K more right out of school and $6M more over the course of a 40 year career. The numbers I ran are still exactly the same.
Last edited by Emma. on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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