Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:31 am
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https://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=206377
Did you just ignore the comment right about you? Nobody knows what a Ruby Scholar is. People know what HYS are.AssumptionRequired wrote:You would be crazy to take H over the Ruby... No having HLS on your resume 5 years out will not be much better than Ruby Scholar at UChi. Getting a Ruby is harder than getting into HLS
Nope. If you are a Rubenstein Scholar and finish in the middle of your class, you will not see any benefit employment wise from the scholarship, as the scholarship is less indicative of your capacity to succeed than your law grades. If you finish toward the bottom of your class, you will look like a dud. The only way I see it actually benefiting you is if you finish toward the top of your class.nebula666 wrote:That is not a good comparison. Having Ruby at Chicago is completely different than paying significantly more to attend there than UVA. It is a very prestigious honor, it will open up more doors, greater access to alumni and events, etc. Any employer knows that you could have gone to Harvard if you got Ruby and I don't see how they can hold that against you. Maybe I overestimate how much of an impact this has but I believe someone with Ruby and the same GPA/softs as someone at Harvard will have the same opportunities, short of politics and academia, which most people don't want anyway.UtilityMonster wrote:People say take Ruby, but when someone has Chi and 60k more at UVA or a similar school, they say take UVA and comment on the similar employment prospects (Chicago not worth 60k more than UVA), e.g. http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=206384.
Yet few say take UVA full ride over Harvard, and almost no one chooses it (examine LSN). Indeed, a huge number of people take Harvard over Ruby (see LSN again).
I conclude that TLS has few Keynesians, and many people on HLS's WL.
So? What is the most difficult to get is not necessarily the best option.AssumptionRequired wrote:You would be crazy to take H over the Ruby... No having HLS on your resume 5 years out will not be much better than Ruby Scholar at UChi. Getting a Ruby is harder than getting into HLS
Well, people know what a full ride to the #4 law school is.ManOfTheMinute wrote: Did you just ignore the comment right about you? Nobody knows what a Ruby Scholar is. People know what HYS are.
This, who cares if they dont know the name, you put R Scholar - Full tuition scholarship to the university of chicago school of lawUtilityMonster wrote:Nope. If you are a Rubenstein Scholar and finish in the middle of your class, you will not see any benefit employment wise from the scholarship, as the scholarship is less indicative of your capacity to succeed than your law grades. If you finish toward the bottom of your class, you will look like a dud. The only way I see it actually benefiting you is if you finish toward the top of your class.nebula666 wrote:That is not a good comparison. Having Ruby at Chicago is completely different than paying significantly more to attend there than UVA. It is a very prestigious honor, it will open up more doors, greater access to alumni and events, etc. Any employer knows that you could have gone to Harvard if you got Ruby and I don't see how they can hold that against you. Maybe I overestimate how much of an impact this has but I believe someone with Ruby and the same GPA/softs as someone at Harvard will have the same opportunities, short of politics and academia, which most people don't want anyway.UtilityMonster wrote:People say take Ruby, but when someone has Chi and 60k more at UVA or a similar school, they say take UVA and comment on the similar employment prospects (Chicago not worth 60k more than UVA), e.g. http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=206384.
Yet few say take UVA full ride over Harvard, and almost no one chooses it (examine LSN). Indeed, a huge number of people take Harvard over Ruby (see LSN again).
I conclude that TLS has few Keynesians, and many people on HLS's WL.
Well, people know what a full ride to the #4 law school is.ManOfTheMinute wrote: Did you just ignore the comment right about you? Nobody knows what a Ruby Scholar is. People know what HYS are.
+1one_by_one wrote:If you seriously want to do PI after law school, I strongly second this post and I feel like it's gotten lost in the Ruby v. Harvard discussion -
Nelson wrote:If you have the demonstrated public service interest to get an RTK, you get one, and you want to do public interest, I would take the RTK. It's a scholarship with actual name recognition in the PI community. You'll get a lot more public interest support at NYU with an RTK than you would at Chicago.
But you better be damn sure that PI is what you want. A lot of folks' goals change during law school.thelawyler wrote:+1one_by_one wrote:If you seriously want to do PI after law school, I strongly second this post and I feel like it's gotten lost in the Ruby v. Harvard discussion -
Nelson wrote:If you have the demonstrated public service interest to get an RTK, you get one, and you want to do public interest, I would take the RTK. It's a scholarship with actual name recognition in the PI community. You'll get a lot more public interest support at NYU with an RTK than you would at Chicago.
True, but a lot of people also don't go in with an RTK.Emma. wrote:But you better be damn sure that PI is what you want. A lot of folks' goals change during law school.thelawyler wrote:+1one_by_one wrote:If you seriously want to do PI after law school, I strongly second this post and I feel like it's gotten lost in the Ruby v. Harvard discussion -
Nelson wrote:If you have the demonstrated public service interest to get an RTK, you get one, and you want to do public interest, I would take the RTK. It's a scholarship with actual name recognition in the PI community. You'll get a lot more public interest support at NYU with an RTK than you would at Chicago.
Not sure why you think this.2012applicant2013 wrote: Especially as a URM I am concerned that I will already have to be working harder for many opportunities and a HLS degree can help me open more doors.
How does having no debt open more doors for you? If you're only talking about opening doors, its merely a question of HLS v NYU/UChi.Emma. wrote:Not sure why you think this.2012applicant2013 wrote: Especially as a URM I am concerned that I will already have to be working harder for many opportunities and a HLS degree can help me open more doors.
Also, not trolling for UChi but genuinely curious, which doors to you really think HLS can open that wouldn't be open to you with no debt and a UChi or NYU degree?
Come on maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. And out of curiosity, what doors are closed to UChi grads but open to HLS grads?ManOfTheMinute wrote:How does having no debt open more doors for you?Emma. wrote:Not sure why you think this.2012applicant2013 wrote: Especially as a URM I am concerned that I will already have to be working harder for many opportunities and a HLS degree can help me open more doors.
Also, not trolling for UChi but genuinely curious, which doors to you really think HLS can open that wouldn't be open to you with no debt and a UChi or NYU degree?
If this is the case, and you're not absolutely sold on PI (which sounds pretty clear), I reiterate my first post. Pick the Ruby (which also covers COL, unlike RTK) and get a fantastic and free education from Chicago, and withdraw from your RTK interview spot to give others a chance.2012applicant2013 wrote:Currently I am interested in PI however, I know that many people say this going into law school and change their minds (due to finances, personal interest, the market ect) so I'm not sure i want to lock myself into that career path as a 0L (hence my hesitation about RTK).
I think I am becoming increasingly debt averse as this cycle plays out. It seems that even with a very flexible LARP or LIPP I will be locked into their a very low paying job or a very high paying big law job for 8-10 years if if I want to aggressively pay back my loans (which I want to do).
I would love to have flexibility in my career because the legal market is changing/shrinking and I would hope not to get caught somewhere just to pay off loans. That being said I want to set myself up in the best way possible. And if HLS delivers on intangibles (like name recognition outside of the legal world) I would be willing to sacrifice flexibility in the beginning of my career for later payoffs. Especially as a URM I am concerned that I will already have to be working harder for many opportunities and a HLS degree can help me open more doors.
To clarify this is more to weighing job options after placing in the middle of a class at Chicago vs being at the middle of the class at HLS because there is no guarantee how well I or anyone else will do once in law school.JollyGreenGiant wrote:Come on maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. And out of curiosity, what doors are closed to UChi grads but open to HLS grads?ManOfTheMinute wrote:How does having no debt open more doors for you?Emma. wrote:Not sure why you think this.2012applicant2013 wrote: Especially as a URM I am concerned that I will already have to be working harder for many opportunities and a HLS degree can help me open more doors.
Also, not trolling for UChi but genuinely curious, which doors to you really think HLS can open that wouldn't be open to you with no debt and a UChi or NYU degree?
JollyGreenGiant wrote:I love me some lay prestige, but I still would choose Chicago here. Outside of jobs that rely on lay prestige (i.e. running a senatorial campaign), you will see only a small boost in outcome from going to H over Chi. It's certainly not worth the ~$180k difference.
Ahah! So TLS does agree that HLS provides a tangible boost in some employment outcomes over CCN!Yea, I would probably take the Ruby -- its guaranteed, after all -- unless you get really hopped up over mad prestige and want to run for office.
I'm not sure that mid class at HLS opens any more doors than mid class at Chicago. I'm not saying it necessarily doesn't, but this isn't something that anyone on here has good data about. Another point (that I don't have anything more than anecdotal evidence about) is that if you have the ability to land a Rubenstein, then the chances you'll be in the middle of the class are much reduced. I think the school could probably tell you more about this, but the kids with those scholarships have tended to do really well.2012applicant2013 wrote: To clarify this is more to weighing job options after placing in the middle of a class at Chicago vs being at the middle of the class at HLS because there is no guarantee how well I or anyone else will do once in law school.
Lol. I don't think anyone but the most egregious trolls would say that for certain specific goals, politics being one of them, HLS is superior to CCN (and probably Y & S for that matter).fluffythepenguin wrote:
Ahah! So TLS does agree that HLS provides a tangible boost in some employment outcomes over CCN!
So, yes, it is expensive to get a HLS degree (especially if you don't get financial aid or LIPP), but it does offer better career prospects.jbagelboy wrote:Yea, I would probably take the Ruby -- its guaranteed, after all -- unless you get really hopped up over mad prestige and want to run for office.
Wat?UtilityMonster wrote:So, yes, it is expensive to get a HLS degree (especially if you don't get financial aid or LIPP), but it does offer better career prospects.jbagelboy wrote:Yea, I would probably take the Ruby -- its guaranteed, after all -- unless you get really hopped up over mad prestige and want to run for office.
Also, what exactly are you going to spend the money from the Ruby on later, anyway? A Rolls-Royce? Pretty sure none of us are going to be poor or ever have to worry about material subsistence, so the question really becomes: what is more valuable to you, a Harvard degree or a larger home, nicer car, luxury goods of various kinds, etc.?
This assumes a HLS won't net you more than 200k NPV over the course of your career (there is a solid chance it will - can you wait for two marshmallows?).
There is no more shallowness in wanting the prestige of a HLS degree than in wanting to be rich.
You really think the pay differential between Harvard and UChi is going to come anywhere close to making up for $180K + compounding interest? How do you figure this? What specific career prospects are better besides politics?UtilityMonster wrote:So, yes, it is expensive to get a HLS degree (especially if you don't get financial aid or LIPP), but it does offer better career prospects.jbagelboy wrote:Yea, I would probably take the Ruby -- its guaranteed, after all -- unless you get really hopped up over mad prestige and want to run for office.
Also, what exactly are you going to spend the money from the Ruby on later, anyway? A Rolls-Royce? Pretty sure none of us are going to be poor or ever have to worry about material subsistence, so the question really becomes: what is more valuable to you, a Harvard degree or a larger home, nicer car, luxury goods of various kinds, etc.?
This assumes a HLS won't net you more than 200k NPV over the course of your career (there is a solid chance it will - can you wait for two marshmallows?).
There is no more shallowness in wanting the prestige of a HLS degree than in wanting to be rich.
Truthfully I could care less about any of this. I think people care more about options than soul-crushing debt. So what you end up at Jones day instead of S&C. You save 200k while that guy at S&C pays 4k a month for 4 1/2 years. Well if they make it 4 1/2 years. And while LRAP is great it sucks if you are in the middle ground 90-120k. With a Ruby you do three years of Big Law save up 150k and go and save the world while not having to live like a pauper. Or you can take a non legal job with an NGO and not worry that LRAP won't cover it. You want options, not having debt gives the option to do whatever you want. To me this wouldn't be a discussion it's nearly TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS. I love HLS and think it's a great school and I disliked UC more than any other law school I visited but if I had to choose between Chicago (free plus COL) or Harvard at near sticker. I'd go to Chicago.Emma. wrote:I'm not sure that mid class at HLS opens any more doors than mid class at Chicago. I'm not saying it necessarily doesn't, but this isn't something that anyone on here has good data about. Another point (that I don't have anything more than anecdotal evidence about) is that if you have the ability to land a Rubenstein, then the chances you'll be in the middle of the class are much reduced. I think the school could probably tell you more about this, but the kids with those scholarships have tended to do really well.2012applicant2013 wrote: To clarify this is more to weighing job options after placing in the middle of a class at Chicago vs being at the middle of the class at HLS because there is no guarantee how well I or anyone else will do once in law school.