Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school should I attend?

Harvard (15k)
27
38%
Chicago (Ruby)
45
63%
 
Total votes: 72

20141023
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby 20141023 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:31 am

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Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby 005618502 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:55 am

You would be crazy to take H over the Ruby... No having HLS on your resume 5 years out will not be much better than Ruby Scholar at UChi. Getting a Ruby is harder than getting into HLS

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ManOfTheMinute
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:00 am

AssumptionRequired wrote:You would be crazy to take H over the Ruby... No having HLS on your resume 5 years out will not be much better than Ruby Scholar at UChi. Getting a Ruby is harder than getting into HLS


Did you just ignore the comment right about you? Nobody knows what a Ruby Scholar is. People know what HYS are.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby UtilityMonster » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:56 am

nebula666 wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:People say take Ruby, but when someone has Chi and 60k more at UVA or a similar school, they say take UVA and comment on the similar employment prospects (Chicago not worth 60k more than UVA), e.g. http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=206384.

Yet few say take UVA full ride over Harvard, and almost no one chooses it (examine LSN). Indeed, a huge number of people take Harvard over Ruby (see LSN again).

I conclude that TLS has few Keynesians, and many people on HLS's WL.


That is not a good comparison. Having Ruby at Chicago is completely different than paying significantly more to attend there than UVA. It is a very prestigious honor, it will open up more doors, greater access to alumni and events, etc. Any employer knows that you could have gone to Harvard if you got Ruby and I don't see how they can hold that against you. Maybe I overestimate how much of an impact this has but I believe someone with Ruby and the same GPA/softs as someone at Harvard will have the same opportunities, short of politics and academia, which most people don't want anyway.


Nope. If you are a Rubenstein Scholar and finish in the middle of your class, you will not see any benefit employment wise from the scholarship, as the scholarship is less indicative of your capacity to succeed than your law grades. If you finish toward the bottom of your class, you will look like a dud. The only way I see it actually benefiting you is if you finish toward the top of your class.

AssumptionRequired wrote:You would be crazy to take H over the Ruby... No having HLS on your resume 5 years out will not be much better than Ruby Scholar at UChi. Getting a Ruby is harder than getting into HLS


So? What is the most difficult to get is not necessarily the best option.

ManOfTheMinute wrote:Did you just ignore the comment right about you? Nobody knows what a Ruby Scholar is. People know what HYS are.


Well, people know what a full ride to the #4 law school is.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby 005618502 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:06 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:
nebula666 wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:People say take Ruby, but when someone has Chi and 60k more at UVA or a similar school, they say take UVA and comment on the similar employment prospects (Chicago not worth 60k more than UVA), e.g. http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=206384.

Yet few say take UVA full ride over Harvard, and almost no one chooses it (examine LSN). Indeed, a huge number of people take Harvard over Ruby (see LSN again).

I conclude that TLS has few Keynesians, and many people on HLS's WL.


That is not a good comparison. Having Ruby at Chicago is completely different than paying significantly more to attend there than UVA. It is a very prestigious honor, it will open up more doors, greater access to alumni and events, etc. Any employer knows that you could have gone to Harvard if you got Ruby and I don't see how they can hold that against you. Maybe I overestimate how much of an impact this has but I believe someone with Ruby and the same GPA/softs as someone at Harvard will have the same opportunities, short of politics and academia, which most people don't want anyway.


Nope. If you are a Rubenstein Scholar and finish in the middle of your class, you will not see any benefit employment wise from the scholarship, as the scholarship is less indicative of your capacity to succeed than your law grades. If you finish toward the bottom of your class, you will look like a dud. The only way I see it actually benefiting you is if you finish toward the top of your class.




ManOfTheMinute wrote:Did you just ignore the comment right about you? Nobody knows what a Ruby Scholar is. People know what HYS are.


Well, people know what a full ride to the #4 law school is.


This, who cares if they dont know the name, you put R Scholar - Full tuition scholarship to the university of chicago school of law

When people see that, they will be impressed.
It is dumb to say you will not see a benfit finishing in the middle, you will definitely see a benefit. Its called not being 250k in debt. Are you an 0L? If so you dont know how bad debt sucks. Also, middle of the pack at Chicago can still get biglaw.

If you are going to finish near the bottom at Chicago you are going to be at the bottom at HLS, I dont think that the potential at the bottom is THAT much different from the 2.

All I am saying is, knowing what I know now, I would kill to have the positions I have for the summer lined up and be looking at biglaw with 0 debt and I WOULD NOT kill to be at HLS, because I would be going to the same firms this summer as I am from my MVP.

Also, you wont be 40-60k in debt at graduation because of Summer associate positions.

OP, what market are you looking at?

Also, if you only want PI dont listen to me, I dont know a thing about professions or people who dont care about $$$

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby one_by_one » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:13 pm

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby thelawyler » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:29 pm

one_by_one wrote:If you seriously want to do PI after law school, I strongly second this post and I feel like it's gotten lost in the Ruby v. Harvard discussion -

Nelson wrote:If you have the demonstrated public service interest to get an RTK, you get one, and you want to do public interest, I would take the RTK. It's a scholarship with actual name recognition in the PI community. You'll get a lot more public interest support at NYU with an RTK than you would at Chicago.


+1

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Emma. » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:32 pm

thelawyler wrote:
one_by_one wrote:If you seriously want to do PI after law school, I strongly second this post and I feel like it's gotten lost in the Ruby v. Harvard discussion -

Nelson wrote:If you have the demonstrated public service interest to get an RTK, you get one, and you want to do public interest, I would take the RTK. It's a scholarship with actual name recognition in the PI community. You'll get a lot more public interest support at NYU with an RTK than you would at Chicago.


+1


But you better be damn sure that PI is what you want. A lot of folks' goals change during law school.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby thelawyler » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:40 pm

Emma. wrote:
thelawyler wrote:
one_by_one wrote:If you seriously want to do PI after law school, I strongly second this post and I feel like it's gotten lost in the Ruby v. Harvard discussion -

Nelson wrote:If you have the demonstrated public service interest to get an RTK, you get one, and you want to do public interest, I would take the RTK. It's a scholarship with actual name recognition in the PI community. You'll get a lot more public interest support at NYU with an RTK than you would at Chicago.


+1


But you better be damn sure that PI is what you want. A lot of folks' goals change during law school.


True, but a lot of people also don't go in with an RTK.

But still a valid point, so if OP is not absolutely committed to PI and may want Big Law, then I'd take Ruby (and if I wanted Big Law, I would rule out Harvard/NYU). If money does not matter bc of wealthy background and you've got some career flexibility, I'd take Harvard, because the LRAP is pretty great there if you still want PI.
Last edited by thelawyler on Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby EdgarWinter » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:05 pm

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby 2012applicant2013 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:50 pm

Currently I am interested in PI however, I know that many people say this going into law school and change their minds (due to finances, personal interest, the market ect) so I'm not sure i want to lock myself into that career path as a 0L (hence my hesitation about RTK).

I think I am becoming increasingly debt averse as this cycle plays out. It seems that even with a very flexible LARP or LIPP I will be locked into their a very low paying job or a very high paying big law job for 8-10 years if if I want to aggressively pay back my loans (which I want to do).

I would love to have flexibility in my career because the legal market is changing/shrinking and I would hope not to get caught somewhere just to pay off loans. That being said I want to set myself up in the best way possible. And if HLS delivers on intangibles (like name recognition outside of the legal world) I would be willing to sacrifice flexibility in the beginning of my career for later payoffs. Especially as a URM I am concerned that I will already have to be working harder for many opportunities and a HLS degree can help me open more doors.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Emma. » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:04 pm

2012applicant2013 wrote: Especially as a URM I am concerned that I will already have to be working harder for many opportunities and a HLS degree can help me open more doors.


Not sure why you think this.

Also, not trolling for UChi but genuinely curious, which doors to you really think HLS can open that wouldn't be open to you with no debt and a UChi or NYU degree?

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:06 pm

I love me some lay prestige, but I still would choose Chicago here. Outside of jobs that rely on lay prestige (i.e. running a senatorial campaign), you will see only a small boost in outcome from going to H over Chi. It's certainly not worth the ~$180k difference.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:09 pm

Emma. wrote:
2012applicant2013 wrote: Especially as a URM I am concerned that I will already have to be working harder for many opportunities and a HLS degree can help me open more doors.


Not sure why you think this.

Also, not trolling for UChi but genuinely curious, which doors to you really think HLS can open that wouldn't be open to you with no debt and a UChi or NYU degree?


How does having no debt open more doors for you? If you're only talking about opening doors, its merely a question of HLS v NYU/UChi.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:10 pm

ManOfTheMinute wrote:
Emma. wrote:
2012applicant2013 wrote: Especially as a URM I am concerned that I will already have to be working harder for many opportunities and a HLS degree can help me open more doors.


Not sure why you think this.

Also, not trolling for UChi but genuinely curious, which doors to you really think HLS can open that wouldn't be open to you with no debt and a UChi or NYU degree?


How does having no debt open more doors for you?

Come on maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. And out of curiosity, what doors are closed to UChi grads but open to HLS grads?

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:14 pm

Yea, I would probably take the Ruby -- its guaranteed, after all -- unless you get really hopped up over mad prestige and want to run for office.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby 02889 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:18 pm

2012applicant2013 wrote:Currently I am interested in PI however, I know that many people say this going into law school and change their minds (due to finances, personal interest, the market ect) so I'm not sure i want to lock myself into that career path as a 0L (hence my hesitation about RTK).

I think I am becoming increasingly debt averse as this cycle plays out. It seems that even with a very flexible LARP or LIPP I will be locked into their a very low paying job or a very high paying big law job for 8-10 years if if I want to aggressively pay back my loans (which I want to do).

I would love to have flexibility in my career because the legal market is changing/shrinking and I would hope not to get caught somewhere just to pay off loans. That being said I want to set myself up in the best way possible. And if HLS delivers on intangibles (like name recognition outside of the legal world) I would be willing to sacrifice flexibility in the beginning of my career for later payoffs. Especially as a URM I am concerned that I will already have to be working harder for many opportunities and a HLS degree can help me open more doors.

If this is the case, and you're not absolutely sold on PI (which sounds pretty clear), I reiterate my first post. Pick the Ruby (which also covers COL, unlike RTK) and get a fantastic and free education from Chicago, and withdraw from your RTK interview spot to give others a chance.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby 2012applicant2013 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:39 pm

JollyGreenGiant wrote:
ManOfTheMinute wrote:
Emma. wrote:
2012applicant2013 wrote: Especially as a URM I am concerned that I will already have to be working harder for many opportunities and a HLS degree can help me open more doors.


Not sure why you think this.

Also, not trolling for UChi but genuinely curious, which doors to you really think HLS can open that wouldn't be open to you with no debt and a UChi or NYU degree?


How does having no debt open more doors for you?

Come on maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. And out of curiosity, what doors are closed to UChi grads but open to HLS grads?


To clarify this is more to weighing job options after placing in the middle of a class at Chicago vs being at the middle of the class at HLS because there is no guarantee how well I or anyone else will do once in law school.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby fluffythepenguin » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:43 pm

JollyGreenGiant wrote:I love me some lay prestige, but I still would choose Chicago here. Outside of jobs that rely on lay prestige (i.e. running a senatorial campaign), you will see only a small boost in outcome from going to H over Chi. It's certainly not worth the ~$180k difference.


Yea, I would probably take the Ruby -- its guaranteed, after all -- unless you get really hopped up over mad prestige and want to run for office.


Ahah! So TLS does agree that HLS provides a tangible boost in some employment outcomes over CCN!
:D

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Emma. » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:46 pm

2012applicant2013 wrote:To clarify this is more to weighing job options after placing in the middle of a class at Chicago vs being at the middle of the class at HLS because there is no guarantee how well I or anyone else will do once in law school.


I'm not sure that mid class at HLS opens any more doors than mid class at Chicago. I'm not saying it necessarily doesn't, but this isn't something that anyone on here has good data about. Another point (that I don't have anything more than anecdotal evidence about) is that if you have the ability to land a Rubenstein, then the chances you'll be in the middle of the class are much reduced. I think the school could probably tell you more about this, but the kids with those scholarships have tended to do really well.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Emma. » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:47 pm

fluffythepenguin wrote:
Ahah! So TLS does agree that HLS provides a tangible boost in some employment outcomes over CCN!
:D


Lol. I don't think anyone but the most egregious trolls would say that for certain specific goals, politics being one of them, HLS is superior to CCN (and probably Y & S for that matter).

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby UtilityMonster » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:56 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Yea, I would probably take the Ruby -- its guaranteed, after all -- unless you get really hopped up over mad prestige and want to run for office.


So, yes, it is expensive to get a HLS degree (especially if you don't get financial aid or LIPP), but it does offer better career prospects.

Also, what exactly are you going to spend the money from the Ruby on later, anyway? A Rolls-Royce? Pretty sure none of us are going to be poor or ever have to worry about material subsistence, so the question really becomes: what is more valuable to you, a Harvard degree or a larger home, nicer car, luxury goods of various kinds, etc.?

This assumes a HLS won't net you more than 200k NPV over the course of your career (there is a solid chance it will - can you wait for two marshmallows?).

There is no more shallowness in wanting the prestige of a HLS degree than in wanting to be rich.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Bronck » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:03 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Yea, I would probably take the Ruby -- its guaranteed, after all -- unless you get really hopped up over mad prestige and want to run for office.


So, yes, it is expensive to get a HLS degree (especially if you don't get financial aid or LIPP), but it does offer better career prospects.

Also, what exactly are you going to spend the money from the Ruby on later, anyway? A Rolls-Royce? Pretty sure none of us are going to be poor or ever have to worry about material subsistence, so the question really becomes: what is more valuable to you, a Harvard degree or a larger home, nicer car, luxury goods of various kinds, etc.?

This assumes a HLS won't net you more than 200k NPV over the course of your career (there is a solid chance it will - can you wait for two marshmallows?).

There is no more shallowness in wanting the prestige of a HLS degree than in wanting to be rich.


Wat?

Yes, HLS provides more security, but there is going to be significant overlap in career outcomes between H and C. $250k in debt (over $300k after you've paid it all off) is nothing to scoff at. Most people are out of biglaw after 3 years. Have fun with $100-150k in debt looming over your head while you're lateraling as opposed to pocketing and investing the money if you went to Chicago.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Emma. » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:04 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Yea, I would probably take the Ruby -- its guaranteed, after all -- unless you get really hopped up over mad prestige and want to run for office.


So, yes, it is expensive to get a HLS degree (especially if you don't get financial aid or LIPP), but it does offer better career prospects.

Also, what exactly are you going to spend the money from the Ruby on later, anyway? A Rolls-Royce? Pretty sure none of us are going to be poor or ever have to worry about material subsistence, so the question really becomes: what is more valuable to you, a Harvard degree or a larger home, nicer car, luxury goods of various kinds, etc.?

This assumes a HLS won't net you more than 200k NPV over the course of your career (there is a solid chance it will - can you wait for two marshmallows?).

There is no more shallowness in wanting the prestige of a HLS degree than in wanting to be rich.


You really think the pay differential between Harvard and UChi is going to come anywhere close to making up for $180K + compounding interest? How do you figure this? What specific career prospects are better besides politics?

I know that as an 0L the prestige factor of HLS is really hard to turn down. It seems way more appealing to tell your friends that you are going to Harvard than University of Chicago, and that creates a pretty strong confirmation bias. It'd be great if you guys that are making this decision could talk to recent HLS grads who paid close to a full ride and ask them what they would have done if they had been in your shoes.

Don't underestimate the benefits of being debt free. The "either way I'm going to be super rich so the difference is just me driving a Rolls or a Mercedes" is pretty unrealistic.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:06 pm

Emma. wrote:
2012applicant2013 wrote:To clarify this is more to weighing job options after placing in the middle of a class at Chicago vs being at the middle of the class at HLS because there is no guarantee how well I or anyone else will do once in law school.


I'm not sure that mid class at HLS opens any more doors than mid class at Chicago. I'm not saying it necessarily doesn't, but this isn't something that anyone on here has good data about. Another point (that I don't have anything more than anecdotal evidence about) is that if you have the ability to land a Rubenstein, then the chances you'll be in the middle of the class are much reduced. I think the school could probably tell you more about this, but the kids with those scholarships have tended to do really well.


Truthfully I could care less about any of this. I think people care more about options than soul-crushing debt. So what you end up at Jones day instead of S&C. You save 200k while that guy at S&C pays 4k a month for 4 1/2 years. Well if they make it 4 1/2 years. And while LRAP is great it sucks if you are in the middle ground 90-120k. With a Ruby you do three years of Big Law save up 150k and go and save the world while not having to live like a pauper. Or you can take a non legal job with an NGO and not worry that LRAP won't cover it. You want options, not having debt gives the option to do whatever you want. To me this wouldn't be a discussion it's nearly TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS. I love HLS and think it's a great school and I disliked UC more than any other law school I visited but if I had to choose between Chicago (free plus COL) or Harvard at near sticker. I'd go to Chicago.




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