Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school should I attend?

Harvard (15k)
27
38%
Chicago (Ruby)
45
63%
 
Total votes: 72

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:36 pm

Emma. wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:
Emma. wrote:Have you seen comparisons of HLS LIPP vs UChi LRAP?

The "more enjoyable experience thing" is a joke, right? HLS has an objectively more enjoyable experience?


UChi LRAP is irrelevant if one has a Rubenstein.

Regarding how enjoyable the experience is, I have heard the difference in stress due to grading systems is huge. Certainly, Harvard has better facilities and probably more interesting students (not an attempt to reinforce the Chicago students stereotype). Also, Boston, and Cambridge in particular, is a better place to live than Hyde Park, or so most people say. So, "objectively better"? Only in the sense that it is true for most people.

Meh. You seemed to have strayed away from HLS v. Ruby to be talking generally about the awesome benefits of HLS over CCN as a whole.

Additional stress from grading seems impossible to quantify. Would I be less stressed worrying about HPs than about 180+ grades? I have no idea. I'm sure current HLS students will say that they can't imagine how much more stressful school would be with grades, but we really can say for sure. Even for people who have transferred from a school with grades to HLS, comparing 1L at their old school to 2L is really apples to oranges.

Better facilities?

I'll agree that HP isn't a huge selling point, but it isn't too bad. After 1L most people live in the city, and Chicago v. Boston is really just a question of preference.


Why are you entertaining this guy. His arguments are silly. We get it he loves harvard but talking about making a 200k decision because he thinks Cambridge is better than Hyde Park.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:43 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:
JollyGreenGiant wrote:Please just say that lay prestige is worth $200k to you.


Lay prestige is worth $200K for me. If I get into Harvard, I am going.

Part of the problem is too many people on TLS come from upper-class/upper middle class lifestyles and are used to living a life that most of the world doesn't come remotely close to living. When I see people complaining about "only" having $70K in disposable income after debt payments and necessary living costs during their stint in Big Law, I just shake my head. There are a lot of people that will be paying $2K in rent every month while they are at Boston or Chicago or even Ann Arbor. What does that eventually come out to in the form of loan payments? $1K vs $2K vs. $700 in rent per month over the span of three years of law school amounts to a shit load of money.


Don't know about other people on TLS but I grew up dirt poor and worked hard for everything I have. That's why I think it would be stupid to go 200k in debt. I don't have anybody that will bail me out. I actually think too many people on TLS (esp. 0L) don't understand how much 200k is. The flexability of not having loans is amazing and Chicago places pretty good, clearly not the same as Harvard but close enough IMO. I just don't think HLS is 200k better than Chicago.

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banjo
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby banjo » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:53 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:For me, though, if I were to imagine what I could spend the $100s of thousands I save by choosing Chicago on, and someone were to offer me the experience of going to HLS, I would choose that. I value that more than whatever that money could buy me later in life. I live a simple and very frugal lifestyle. I wouldn't know what to do with a high earning attorney salary if I had one.


Donate whatever you save to a good charity. Saying you donate $2000 a month to kids in Africa will get you laid more often than the H-bomb anyway.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby bizzybone1313 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:59 pm

unc0mm0n1 wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:
JollyGreenGiant wrote:Please just say that lay prestige is worth $200k to you.


Lay prestige is worth $200K for me. If I get into Harvard, I am going.

Part of the problem is too many people on TLS come from upper-class/upper middle class lifestyles and are used to living a life that most of the world doesn't come remotely close to living. When I see people complaining about "only" having $70K in disposable income after debt payments and necessary living costs during their stint in Big Law, I just shake my head. There are a lot of people that will be paying $2K in rent every month while they are at Boston or Chicago or even Ann Arbor. What does that eventually come out to in the form of loan payments? $1K vs $2K vs. $700 in rent per month over the span of three years of law school amounts to a shit load of money.


Don't know about other people on TLS but I grew up dirt poor and worked hard for everything I have. That's why I think it would be stupid to go 200k in debt. I don't have anybody that will bail me out. I actually think too many people on TLS (esp. 0L) don't understand how much 200k is. The flexability of not having loans is amazing and Chicago places pretty good, clearly not the same as Harvard but close enough IMO. I just don't think HLS is 200k better than Chicago.


There is guy in the US House that graduated from Harvard Law, worked Big Law for 2-3 years to pay of debt and then joined the military.

The point from my post is that a lot of people spend way too much money and want to live a baller lifestyle. It is very simple: The more money one spends-- the longer one has to work making some other dumbasses rich. I have a real close friend whose daily thoughts revolve around how he is going to buy the biggest house.

It is tough to pass up Harvard Law. I would take Chicago too if I didn't have political ambitions. $150K from such an elite school is a ton of money. You could do your 3-4 year stint in Big Law, work for a few more years in Mid Law and retire at the age of 40 if you played your cards right.

eph
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby eph » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:18 pm

Harvard...reason...Harvard

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Dr. Dre » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:43 pm

eph wrote:Harvard...reason...Harvard


Begs the fucken' question. It would NOT be begging the question if you had said Yale. Ex:

Premise: Yale
Conclusion: Yale

Yale, by itself, is a tautology, therefore, one cannot beg the question.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Dr. Dre » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:47 pm

banjo wrote:Donate whatever you save to a good charity. Saying you donate $2000 a month to kids in Africa will get you laid more often than the H-bomb anyway.


Only by liberal women, whom, on average, are less attractive than conservative women.

Ti Malice
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Ti Malice » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:53 pm

What this thread really needs is some TaipeiMort.

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banjo
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby banjo » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:03 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:
banjo wrote:Donate whatever you save to a good charity. Saying you donate $2000 a month to kids in Africa will get you laid more often than the H-bomb anyway.


Only by liberal women, whom, on average, are less attractive than conservative women.


You tell the conservative women you went to Chicago. :wink:

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Dr. Dre » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:10 pm

Chicago is pretty conservative. But the conservative women don't care what school you went to (unless you went to the liberal feces, UC Berkeley). They care bout that $.

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:17 pm

Ti Malice wrote:What this thread really needs is some TaipeiMort.

:lol:

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Emma.
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Emma. » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:32 pm

Wormfather wrote:Just thought I'd throw this out there. HLS AAs often get jobs, firm and PI for 1L summer and skip OCI all together...


This is true at UChicago also.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:16 am

Wormfather wrote:
If OP is debt adverse she could potentially do big law for 1 or 2 years, take a huge chunk out of her debt and then go into PI with only 40-50K left to pay back at a manageable rate of the next 8-9 years.


great plan

timbs4339
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:11 am

LOL at "TLSers are all rich snobs and that's why they don't want to go 200k in debt so they can impress people who've seen Legally Blonde." That's some of the more tortured reasoning I've seen on this site.

Dude, anyone you think you're impressing with dat lay prestige is someone probably equally impressed with the person who went to the local TTT or they think all lawyers are jerkoffs anyway.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:21 am

Prestige is not about impressing. Fuck what people think. It's about boosting that fucken' ego, networking with em' WASP's, eating Manhattan clam chowder for supper, and it's about history.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:46 am

"The Harvard experience is worth $200,000 to me!"

(reads Pennoyer, goes to Dunkin' Donuts, gets SA at Mintz Levin)

M458
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby M458 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:55 am

Get the Ruby, work 3-4 years in BigLaw, sock-away $250k by the time you're 30 in an investment account with a moderate mix of 60% stocks/40% bonds, get an average rate of 7% or so a year, don't touch that $$$ until you're 60, and you'll have approximately $2 million dollars for your retirement even if you never save another penny in your life.

I'm a 0L, so take my opinion for what it is (or isn't) worth, but being debt-free gives you so much flexibility. If you end up hating BigLaw (or hell, even the entire legal profession, which might not be such a stretch the way a lot of practicing lawyers describe their life), you can do it for a few years and virtually be financially secure for the rest of your life if you don't try to live too lavishly.

fluffythepenguin
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby fluffythepenguin » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:17 am

M458 wrote:Get the Ruby, work 3-4 years in BigLaw, sock-away $250k by the time you're 30 in an investment account with a moderate mix of 60% stocks/40% bonds, get an average rate of 7% or so a year, don't touch that $$$ until you're 60, and you'll have approximately $2 million dollars for your retirement even if you never save another penny in your life.

I'm a 0L, so take my opinion for what it is (or isn't) worth, but being debt-free gives you so much flexibility. If you end up hating BigLaw (or hell, even the entire legal profession, which might not be such a stretch the way a lot of practicing lawyers describe their life), you can do it for a few years and virtually be financially secure for the rest of your life if you don't try to live too lavishly.


Right or wrong, I don't think long-term financial security is a chief concern of 0L's considering HLS.

M458
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby M458 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:18 pm

fluffythepenguin wrote:
M458 wrote:Get the Ruby, work 3-4 years in BigLaw, sock-away $250k by the time you're 30 in an investment account with a moderate mix of 60% stocks/40% bonds, get an average rate of 7% or so a year, don't touch that $$$ until you're 60, and you'll have approximately $2 million dollars for your retirement even if you never save another penny in your life.

I'm a 0L, so take my opinion for what it is (or isn't) worth, but being debt-free gives you so much flexibility. If you end up hating BigLaw (or hell, even the entire legal profession, which might not be such a stretch the way a lot of practicing lawyers describe their life), you can do it for a few years and virtually be financially secure for the rest of your life if you don't try to live too lavishly.


Right or wrong, I don't think long-term financial security is a chief concern of 0L's considering HLS.


You're right in your assessment, but I really think it should be. Not simply because of the dollar figures, but more based on what financial security really provides you with.

Your entire outlook on your career prospects and the risks you can and cannot take both professionally and personally are in completely different worlds if you compare someone that's staring at $250k in debt and someone who has no debt at all. What if you change your mind about working in big law? What if you meet the girl/guy of your dreams and you want to start a family? What if you just want to have some semblance of a life and don't want to spend nearly a decade of your youth paying back debt and working miserable hours? What if your best friend from college wants to take his shot at a start-up and wants you on board?

I guess if you've worked prior to law school and paid back undergrad loans, you have already to some degree experienced what it is to have a loan payment and have to make living/career/personal considerations based off it. But for 0Ls that are going K-JD, I think it's extremely dangerous to pay sticker. Perhaps I'm being condescending, but this isn't monopoly money. $250k is a life-altering amount of money/debt. If you truly want HLS or another school at sticker, just realize exactly what you're getting into. There are so many steps along the way where it seems like you can end up getting seriously screwed for a big chunk of your life--getting sick during either of your 1L finals, screwing up your OCI screeners, getting no-offered, getting "Lathamed" or pushed out after a year or two, not finding the exit opportunities you thought would be there, etc.

In some ways, I almost feel like HYS are best for the truly well-off or the truly poor. The truly well-off have a safety net in case things don't work out, and the truly poor will likely be getting a fair amount of aid. It's those stuck in the middle that are essentially risking a whole hell of a lot for the chance at the HYS prestige/outcomes/etc. Yes, the chances of getting a "favorable" outcome out of school are good, but there's still a chance you could be one of the ones who doesn't get that outcome or you do get the outcome, and you realize it's really a pretty crummy existence after all.

Just my .02 and something to consider.

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smaug_
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby smaug_ » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:28 pm

I've avoided commenting on this thread, but I'll throw my two cents in:

Folks who advocate for HLS, what percentage of outcomes do you meaningly differ from the outcomes at UChi? I am sure that HLS is marginally safer. That said, almost everyone from Harvard will end up working with students from a variety of schools—especially schools as good as UChi. It might be easier for them to get there, but they'll end up at the same place, and in OPs case, he would end up at the same place 200k (plus interest) poorer. It just seems like a really arrogant (and foolish) assumption to think that you'll end up someplace radically different because you went to Harvard.

I will also say that Yale doesn't seem to fall into the same pitfall, imho. Yale students actually do have different options. I'm just not sure that HLS is a significantly better path to anything more than future examples of HOLLOW PREFTIGE.

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby fluffythepenguin » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:17 pm

hibiki wrote:I've avoided commenting on this thread, but I'll throw my two cents in:

Folks who advocate for HLS, what percentage of outcomes do you meaningly differ from the outcomes at UChi? I am sure that HLS is marginally safer. That said, almost everyone from Harvard will end up working with students from a variety of schools—especially schools as good as UChi. It might be easier for them to get there, but they'll end up at the same place, and in OPs case, he would end up at the same place 200k (plus interest) poorer. It just seems like a really arrogant (and foolish) assumption to think that you'll end up someplace radically different because you went to Harvard.

I will also say that Yale doesn't seem to fall into the same pitfall, imho. Yale students actually do have different options. I'm just not sure that HLS is a significantly better path to anything more than future examples of HOLLOW PREFTIGE.


I think HLS would probably provide a benefit for jobs outside of working as a lawyer, be it in business, finance, government, lobbying or public policy. As far as obtaining a first job out of law school, I agree that the differences are probably negligible. But after that, surely the HLS brand and network would provide an edge, no?

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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby jmkelly » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:48 pm

hibiki wrote:Folks who advocate for HLS, what percentage of outcomes do you meaningly differ from the outcomes at UChi? I am sure that HLS is marginally safer. That said, almost everyone from Harvard will end up working with students from a variety of schools—especially schools as good as UChi. It might be easier for them to get there, but they'll end up at the same place, and in OPs case, he would end up at the same place 200k (plus interest) poorer. It just seems like a really arrogant (and foolish) assumption to think that you'll end up someplace radically different because you went to Harvard.

I will also say that Yale doesn't seem to fall into the same pitfall, imho. Yale students actually do have different options. I'm just not sure that HLS is a significantly better path to anything more than future examples of HOLLOW PREFTIGE.


Where do you think Yale students work where they don't have people from HLS and UChi and CLS working beside them?

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smaug_
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby smaug_ » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:12 pm

fluffythepenguin wrote:But after that, surely the HLS brand and network would provide an edge, no?

I'd be surprised if they did, but I could be persuaded by evidence. I'd guess that where you work and what you do becomes far far more important than where you went to school. The HLS brand should help you take a better first step, but once you've taken that step, you're on your own adventure.

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Nelson
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Nelson » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:06 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:"The Harvard experience is worth $200,000 to me!"

(reads Pennoyer, goes to Dunkin' Donuts, gets SA at Mintz Levin)

This was underappreciated.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) v NYU (RTK)

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:09 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:

If you are going to make TTTT arguments I suggest you make them inside the buildings of UC Irvine Law school.




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