Harvard (15k) v Chicago (Ruby) Forum

[eph]

While it is interesting and often enjoyable to muse it might be useful to note that the op's situation applies to .002 (just a guess) of all law school applicants. This situation has no bad outcome. How many angels can...

[smaug_]

Where do you think Yale students work where they don't have people from HLS and UChi and CLS working beside them?

(1) Academia, (2) Government and (3) prestigious PI. I think that HLS probably can push folks into (1) and (2) better than UChi, but it would be interesting to see by what margin they do so. It's my impression (maybe it's a false one) that you still need to kill it at HLS for these things to be a reality. (I'm not a HLS student, so someone should feel free to correct me here; I'm going off of anecdote from friends.) It's my impression that these things are real possibilities for people from Yale. I'm really not the best person to ask about this end of stuff though, so you should harass a Yale student, because they likely had to weigh the benefits of the different schools.

ETA: This isn't really a "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" problem. By claiming it is, you're claiming that 200k decisions can be treated with blithe aplomb.

[eph]

Where do you think Yale students work where they don't have people from HLS and UChi and CLS working beside them?

(1) Academia, (2) Government and (3) prestigious PI. I think that HLS probably can push folks into (1) and (2) better than UChi, but it would be interesting to see by what margin they do so. It's my impression (maybe it's a false one) that you still need to kill it at HLS for these things to be a reality. (I'm not a HLS student, so someone should feel free to correct me here; I'm going off of anecdote from friends.) It's my impression that these things are real possibilities for people from Yale. I'm really not the best person to ask about this end of stuff though, so you should harass a Yale student, because they likely had to weigh the benefits of the different schools.

ETA: This isn't really a "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" problem. By claiming it is, you're claiming that 200k decisions can be treated with blithe aplomb.

Here is in my opinion the issue with your argument. At least half of those attending Harvard pay sticker. Now while their capacity to handle that debt certainly varies from person to person, nonetheless they pay sticker. Is it worth it, well it happens at Harvard year after year and they have no problem finding people to pay it. Looked at another way at least half of those attending any top 100 school pays sticker. Say 125 per school (a guess). I think it is reasonable to assume that anyone paying sticker at a school ranked below Harvard would be willing to pay sticker at Harvard. So 125 per school times 97 schools would mean that over 12000 would pay sticker at Harvard rather than where they are. I would think that anyone attending a school out of the t14 would pay sticker at Harvard. You could probably find 20,000 law applicants who might very well pay sticker every year. The number of those faced with the op's issue that is the angels and pin problem.

[smaug_]

ETA: This isn't really a "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" problem. By claiming it is, you're claiming that 200k decisions can be treated with blithe aplomb.

Here is in my opinion the issue with your argument. At least half of those attending Harvard pay sticker. Now while their capacity to handle that debt certainly varies from person to person, nonetheless they pay sticker. Is it worth it, well it happens at Harvard year after year and they have no problem finding people to pay it. Looked at another way at least half of those attending any top 100 school pays sticker. Say 125 per school (a guess). I think it is reasonable to assume that anyone paying sticker at a school ranked below Harvard would be willing to pay sticker at Harvard. So 125 per school times 97 schools would mean that over 12000 would pay sticker at Harvard rather than where they are. I would think that anyone attending a school out of the t14 would pay sticker at Harvard. You could probably find 20,000 law applicants who might very well pay sticker every year. The number of those faced with the op's issue that is the angels and pin problem.

…ok so the phrase "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" is used to say that you shouldn't waste time debating a topic that is pointless or unknowable. The fact that tens of thousands of people make awful decisions wrt law school admissions doesn't mean that this topic is asinine. Even if a herds of students would rather pay sticker at HLS rather than where they are, that doesn't mean that the choice between spending $200k for HLS and taking Chicago for free is somehow easy/not worth debating.

[thelawyler]

So Harvard pulled an upset in the NCAA tournament. Obviously on the rise. Employers going there in DROVES.

[bizzybone1313]

So Harvard pulled an upset in the NCAA tournament. Obviously on the rise. Employers going there in DROVES.

That is part of what gives Duke prestige. I wouldn't be surprised.

[Bronck]

So Harvard pulled an upset in the NCAA tournament. Obviously on the rise. Employers going there in DROVES.

+1. Very valid argument

[jmkelly]

Where do you think Yale students work where they don't have people from HLS and UChi and CLS working beside them?

(1) Academia, (2) Government and (3) prestigious PI. I think that HLS probably can push folks into (1) and (2) better than UChi, but it would be interesting to see by what margin they do so. It's my impression (maybe it's a false one) that you still need to kill it at HLS for these things to be a reality. (I'm not a HLS student, so someone should feel free to correct me here; I'm going off of anecdote from friends.) It's my impression that these things are real possibilities for people from Yale. I'm really not the best person to ask about this end of stuff though, so you should harass a Yale student, because they likely had to weigh the benefits of the different schools.

ETA: This isn't really a "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" problem. By claiming it is, you're claiming that 200k decisions can be treated with blithe aplomb.

Right, but people from Harvard and Chicago and NYU work at all of those things too. And no matter what school you go to, you have to do the same things to get any of those jobs - good grades, good clerkships, get to know well-connected professors, publish, etc. Doing those things depends way more on you than on your school, at least at the level of the schools we're talking about. Sure, Yale might make things a little easier, but if you've got what it takes to be an academic coming from Yale, you can do it from Chicago too. If you don't, Yale doesn't give you some sort of magic free pass. Nor does Harvard.

Not sure what you mean by "blithe aplomb," but this really is a very easy decision. Harvard, Chicago, and NYU are all basically in the same league - and so is Yale - so if you can get one of them for free, take the money and run.

[John_rizzy_rawls]

Not sure what you mean by "blithe aplomb," but this really is a very easy decision. Harvard, Chicago, and NYU are all basically in the same league - and so is Yale - so if you can get one of them for free, take the money and run.

LOL nope.

[2012applicant2013]

Officially declined NYU's RTK interview invite. Now's its just between UChicago's Ruby and HLS. Has anyone been to UChicago's ASW? Can anyone speak to the "serious" nature of the student body.

Also random question: Are a lot of UChicago students already married/in committed relationships?

[UtilityMonster]

Officially declined NYU's RTK interview invite. Now's its just between UChicago's Ruby and HLS. Has anyone been to UChicago's ASW? Can anyone speak to the "serious" nature of the student body.

Also random question: Are a lot of UChicago students already married/in committed relationships?

Chicago's weekend is in a few weeks. Probably not too late to book a flight. I suspect that trip will be more informative to you than anything you glean from these boards.

[Emma.]

Officially declined NYU's RTK interview invite. Now's its just between UChicago's Ruby and HLS. Has anyone been to UChicago's ASW? Can anyone speak to the "serious" nature of the student body.

Also random question: Are a lot of UChicago students already married/in committed relationships?

I'm not sure what you mean by "serious." As at any school there will be a wide range of personalities and interests among the student body. There are folks that party several times per week, folks that maybe show up to one bar review per year, and everything in between. There are a lot of house parties & other random events every week, and I definitely wound up with more opportunities to go out/socialize than I had time to take advantage of.

I'd say less than 10% of the student body are married/engaged. As far as serious relationships that's harder to say. Probably somewhere around half the student body, but maybe less?

[aredhello]

I've tried to parse through all of the bickering to see if anyone else has raised this point, but got turned off by all the pettiness, so my apologies if somebody already raised this point:

Anybody with a Ruby/Hamilton/RTK/etc. will still need to take out a sizable chunk of loans for living expenses (with the Ruby a bit less so after the $10K stipend). Granted, we're talking maybe $90,000 in debt versus $200,000 to $250,000, but if the OP is considering PI (as indicated by RTK interview invite), am I wrong in understanding that either way, he/she will probably end up taking advantage of LRAP anyway?

If that understanding is correct, then isn't it less significant how much debt the OP has since LRAP will cover everything anyhow (given full participation in the program, which I understand is easier said than done).

Also, my understanding is that Harvard's LIPP is far more flexible in terms of the types of employment that it covers and because it does not require enrollment in IBR and FPSLF. IBR/FPSLF seem like much bigger traps to me than the mountains of debt, but that's just me -- I'm absolutely committed to PI work, but I'd rather not have to take a certain job just because it's explicitly law-related if some other really interesting but less law-related PI job opens up (the LIPP does not require its participants to be engaged in explicitly law-related work, whereas most LRAPs do).

In full disclosure, I am leaning toward H and will be interviewing for the RTK, and the above reflects my current assessment of the two options were I fortunate enough to receive the RTK.

[02889]

I've tried to parse through all of the bickering to see if anyone else has raised this point, but got turned off by all the pettiness, so my apologies if somebody already raised this point:

Anybody with a Ruby/Hamilton/RTK/etc. will still need to take out a sizable chunk of loans for living expenses (with the Ruby a bit less so after the $10K stipend). Granted, we're talking maybe $90,000 in debt versus $200,000 to $250,000, but if the OP is considering PI (as indicated by RTK interview invite), am I wrong in understanding that either way, he/she will probably end up taking advantage of LRAP anyway?

If that understanding is correct, then isn't it less significant how much debt the OP has since LRAP will cover everything anyhow (given full participation in the program, which I understand is easier said than done).

Also, my understanding is that Harvard's LIPP is far more flexible in terms of the types of employment that it covers and because it does not require enrollment in IBR and FPSLF. IBR/FPSLF seem like much bigger traps to me than the mountains of debt, but that's just me -- I'm absolutely committed to PI work, but I'd rather not have to take a certain job just because it's explicitly law-related if some other really interesting but less law-related PI job opens up (the LIPP does not require its participants to be engaged in explicitly law-related work, whereas most LRAPs do).

In full disclosure, I am leaning toward H and will be interviewing for the RTK, and the above reflects my current assessment of the two options were I fortunate enough to receive the RTK.

I was dinged by Harvard so this is mostly irrelevant to me, but out of curiosity, does Harvard simply pay off the balance of your loan after a certain number of years if you're not enrolled in PSLF? As in, the government's strict (and simultaneously vague) standards for what employment qualifies under PSLF are irrelevant? If so, that is certainly far greater than even the flexibility the RTK offers. Only a little envious!

[Dr. Dre]

Outside of Yale, everyone is TTT

[Emma.]

I've tried to parse through all of the bickering to see if anyone else has raised this point, but got turned off by all the pettiness, so my apologies if somebody already raised this point:

Anybody with a Ruby/Hamilton/RTK/etc. will still need to take out a sizable chunk of loans for living expenses (with the Ruby a bit less so after the $10K stipend). Granted, we're talking maybe $90,000 in debt versus $200,000 to $250,000, but if the OP is considering PI (as indicated by RTK interview invite), am I wrong in understanding that either way, he/she will probably end up taking advantage of LRAP anyway?

If that understanding is correct, then isn't it less significant how much debt the OP has since LRAP will cover everything anyhow (given full participation in the program, which I understand is easier said than done).

Also, my understanding is that Harvard's LIPP is far more flexible in terms of the types of employment that it covers and because it does not require enrollment in IBR and FPSLF. IBR/FPSLF seem like much bigger traps to me than the mountains of debt, but that's just me -- I'm absolutely committed to PI work, but I'd rather not have to take a certain job just because it's explicitly law-related if some other really interesting but less law-related PI job opens up (the LIPP does not require its participants to be engaged in explicitly law-related work, whereas most LRAPs do).

In full disclosure, I am leaning toward H and will be interviewing for the RTK, and the above reflects my current assessment of the two options were I fortunate enough to receive the RTK.

Are you suggesting a CoL of $40k a year at UChi? I'm pretty sure many Rubenstein recipients graduate in the black, but even with no savings going into school if you live frugally I think it'd be easy to wind up with a total of $40k debt on graduation.

Also, keep in mind that many 0Ls think they are going to want to do PI but their goals change during law school. Graduating with minimal debt gives a huge amount of flexibility that you just don't have when relying on LRAP programs.

[2012applicant2013]

I've tried to parse through all of the bickering to see if anyone else has raised this point, but got turned off by all the pettiness, so my apologies if somebody already raised this point:

Anybody with a Ruby/Hamilton/RTK/etc. will still need to take out a sizable chunk of loans for living expenses (with the Ruby a bit less so after the $10K stipend). Granted, we're talking maybe $90,000 in debt versus $200,000 to $250,000, but if the OP is considering PI (as indicated by RTK interview invite), am I wrong in understanding that either way, he/she will probably end up taking advantage of LRAP anyway?

If that understanding is correct, then isn't it less significant how much debt the OP has since LRAP will cover everything anyhow (given full participation in the program, which I understand is easier said than done).

Also, my understanding is that Harvard's LIPP is far more flexible in terms of the types of employment that it covers and because it does not require enrollment in IBR and FPSLF. IBR/FPSLF seem like much bigger traps to me than the mountains of debt, but that's just me -- I'm absolutely committed to PI work, but I'd rather not have to take a certain job just because it's explicitly law-related if some other really interesting but less law-related PI job opens up (the LIPP does not require its participants to be engaged in explicitly law-related work, whereas most LRAPs do).

In full disclosure, I am leaning toward H and will be interviewing for the RTK, and the above reflects my current assessment of the two options were I fortunate enough to receive the RTK.

I was dinged by Harvard so this is mostly irrelevant to me, but out of curiosity, does Harvard simply pay off the balance of your loan after a certain number of years if you're not enrolled in PSLF? As in, the government's strict (and simultaneously vague) standards for what employment qualifies under PSLF are irrelevant? If so, that is certainly far greater than even the flexibility the RTK offers. Only a little envious!

I've been weighing this exact calculation. If I'm going to go into PI anyway then it theoretically won't matter if I'm 40k or 200k in debt and it may just be worth it to me to be at Harvard with lots of opportunities and a great support network for PI students.

As for paying it off, typically a student will put themselves (schools highly encourage) on a 10 year repayment program and the school will calculate, based on income, how much the students owe towards their monthly payment and then cover the difference. This allows most people who participate in loan repayment are "done" after about 10 years.

[Stinson]

I was dinged by Harvard so this is mostly irrelevant to me, but out of curiosity, does Harvard simply pay off the balance of your loan after a certain number of years if you're not enrolled in PSLF? As in, the government's strict (and simultaneously vague) standards for what employment qualifies under PSLF are irrelevant? If so, that is certainly far greater than even the flexibility the RTK offers. Only a little envious!

LIPP covers all private sector employment that is law related, and all public sector employment whether law related or not. PSLF's standards are irrelevant. It requires no minimum number of years, nor need a graduate enroll in LIPP upon graduation. If you are in big law repaying loans on a ten year schedule for several years and then switch to a lower paying job, LIPP will continue to pay your loans - subject to the forumla, anyway; obviously there is a contribution from the participarnt - on a ten year schedule. They will be paid in ten years.

Moreover, if OP has any undergrad debt he should be aware that LIPP also covers $30,000 in undergrad debt. Just something to consider.

[Emma.]

I've been weighing this exact calculation. If I'm going to go into PI anyway then it theoretically won't matter if I'm 40k or 200k in debt and it may just be worth it to me to be at Harvard with lots of opportunities and a great support network for PI students.

Not trying to be a smart ass or trigger more drama in your thread, but what opportunities do you think are going to be meaningfully different between the two schools?

[aredhello]

I was dinged by Harvard so this is mostly irrelevant to me, but out of curiosity, does Harvard simply pay off the balance of your loan after a certain number of years if you're not enrolled in PSLF? As in, the government's strict (and simultaneously vague) standards for what employment qualifies under PSLF are irrelevant? If so, that is certainly far greater than even the flexibility the RTK offers. Only a little envious!

I spent all this time crafting a thorough response to your question, only to see that multiple people already answered it for you

[aredhello]

Not trying to be a smart ass or trigger more drama in your thread, but what opportunities do you think are going to be meaningfully different between the two schools?

Not to hijack this thread for my own benefit, but one thing I have been thinking about is that in my situation, the lay prestige of Harvard does have some significance (how much remains to be seen), as I will likely be seeking jobs that may not necessarily require a law degree and thus not necessarily attract a lot of applicants with J.D. Subsequently, those who look at my resume may not know that, for example, Harvard Law and NYU Law are in many ways peer schools.

Edit: This is NOT suggesting that this benefit is necessarily worth however many dollars people have been throwing around; it is just answering the question in a vacuum.

[2012applicant2013]

I've been weighing this exact calculation. If I'm going to go into PI anyway then it theoretically won't matter if I'm 40k or 200k in debt and it may just be worth it to me to be at Harvard with lots of opportunities and a great support network for PI students.

Not trying to be a smart ass or trigger more drama in your thread, but what opportunities do you think are going to be meaningfully different between the two schools?

It's more of a personal decision for me. I have friends/family support in that region and probably want to work in that region in PI permanently. I think there's an advantage to getting to know the community via clinics and then going on to work in those communities post-graduation.

[Stinson]

Not trying to be a smart ass or trigger more drama in your thread, but what opportunities do you think are going to be meaningfully different between the two schools?

Like you, I have no desire to wade into the shitstorm playing out over the last few pages! That said, I think there is a real possibility that certain kinds of PI pursuits will be substantially better served at HLS. PI is not firm hiring, and it is not clerkship hiring. It's a complicated thing that relies on fortuitous meetings between networks of people, taking place over all three years of law school. Moreover, there are many kinds of PI, some more run of the mill and some more unusual. By no means does that mean such connections cannot happen at Chicago. But based on size alone HLS just has a lot more alumni and a larger potential network of people for students to meet. Add to that the Harvard name abroad and the school's outsized role in American government, then add to that Chicago's traditionally more firm-oriented students (they are clearly trying to change this, but one doesn't turn a ship overnight) plus the better institutional support and larger group of like-minded students at HLS - a dedicated PI career office at Harvard, compared with a subdivision of career services at Chicago - and I think there is a strong case that if PI is absolutely what you want to do, and particularly if that PI dream is more unusual or exotic than standard public defender or DA it is more likely that Harvard can set you down that path where Chicago couldn't.

If you're unsure about what you want and think you might end up at a firm, though, I think take the money and run is clearly the right answer.

[Emma.]

Not trying to be a smart ass or trigger more drama in your thread, but what opportunities do you think are going to be meaningfully different between the two schools?

Like you, I have no desire to wade into the shitstorm playing out over the last few pages! That said, I think there is a real possibility that certain kinds of PI pursuits will be substantially better served at HLS. PI is not firm hiring, and it is not clerkship hiring. It's a complicated thing that relies on fortuitous meetings between networks of people, taking place over all three years of law school. Moreover, there are many kinds of PI, some more run of the mill and some more unusual. By no means does that mean such connections cannot happen at Chicago. But based on size alone HLS just has a lot more alumni and a larger potential network of people for students to meet. Add to that the Harvard name abroad and the school's outsized role in American government, then add to that Chicago's traditionally more firm-oriented students (they are clearly trying to change this, but one doesn't turn a ship overnight) plus the better institutional support and larger group of like-minded students at HLS - a dedicated PI career office at Harvard, compared with a subdivision of career services at Chicago - and I think there is a strong case that if PI is absolutely what you want to do, and particularly if that PI dream is more unusual or exotic than standard public defender or DA it is more likely that Harvard can set you down that path where Chicago couldn't.

If you're unsure about what you want and think you might end up at a firm, though, I think take the money and run is clearly the right answer.

This all makes MUCH more sense than anything anyone else has said to support choosing HLS.

I do think the "Chicago is firm oriented" thing is a little overblown, however. It is true that until recently Chicago didn't have the biggest range of clinical options, but that has changed in recent years, and the new LRAP has made PI a much more viable option. Of course at a school 3 times the size there is going to be a much larger group of like-minded students, but I'm not sure that as things stand now (with a couple years of the new clinics and new LRAP at UChi) there isn't a similar ratio of PI to private practice focused students at both schools.

OP, I can also see wanting to practice in the Boston area and wanting to start making those ties during school as a pretty solid reason for choosing HLS. Good luck with your decision and definitely let me know if I can answer any questions about UChi.

[2012applicant2013]

For anyone who is curious, I turned down the Ruby for HLS. I really wanted the support and network from HLS, I love Boston/Cambridge and I will be getting some familial financial support next year.

Thank you to everyone who responded and gave opinions in this thread.