UT versus Duke

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Duke or Texas?

Duke
59
52%
Texas
54
48%
 
Total votes: 113

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:58 pm

sinfiery wrote:Seems like a very reasonable marker to base your decision on.


Sounds good to me. Especially if you want Texas big law. You can easily limit your search to Austin firms and hope to live happily ever afta.

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Longhorn88
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby Longhorn88 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:47 am

BigZuck wrote: thinking is this:

She can do the job in either place- go to Duke even though it is 50K more expensive than UT because of the greatly increased chances of Texas big law/federal clerkship.

She can only do the job in Austin- go to UT because I will be saving about 50K and she will make about 60K more over those three years. Duke is not worth 110K more than UT.

Those are my thoughts, am I missing anything?


Late reply w/ some stats b/c I really don't want to study any more and I'm out of laundry to fold. To reiterate, Duke does not give you a significantly better chance at Big Law in Dallas or Houston than UT would. But don't take my word for it, look at the stats. Here's the #'s for the Dallas, Houston, and Austin offices of 4 major Texas BigLaw firms:

Haynes Boone:
Current associates from Duke - 5
Current associates from UT - 28

Bracewell Giuliani:
Current associates from Duke - 2
Current associates from UT - 45

Locke Lord:
Current associates from Duke - 1
Current associates from UT - 29

Jackson Walker:
Current associates from Duke - 1
Current associates from UT -20

As a strict percentage, a higher % of Duke grads go into Big Law than UT. If you're trying to target the Texas market, that's no longer valid. Again, those are 4 of the largest firms that I chose at random. If you want to practice Big Law in Texas, it's a no-brainer.

BigZuck
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby BigZuck » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:20 am

Longhorn88 wrote:
BigZuck wrote: thinking is this:

She can do the job in either place- go to Duke even though it is 50K more expensive than UT because of the greatly increased chances of Texas big law/federal clerkship.

She can only do the job in Austin- go to UT because I will be saving about 50K and she will make about 60K more over those three years. Duke is not worth 110K more than UT.

Those are my thoughts, am I missing anything?


Late reply w/ some stats b/c I really don't want to study any more and I'm out of laundry to fold. To reiterate, Duke does not give you a significantly better chance at Big Law in Dallas or Houston than UT would. But don't take my word for it, look at the stats. Here's the #'s for the Dallas, Houston, and Austin offices of 4 major Texas BigLaw firms:

Haynes Boone:
Current associates from Duke - 5
Current associates from UT - 28

Bracewell Giuliani:
Current associates from Duke - 2
Current associates from UT - 45

Locke Lord:
Current associates from Duke - 1
Current associates from UT - 29

Jackson Walker:
Current associates from Duke - 1
Current associates from UT -20

As a strict percentage, a higher % of Duke grads go into Big Law than UT. If you're trying to target the Texas market, that's no longer valid. Again, those are 4 of the largest firms that I chose at random. If you want to practice Big Law in Texas, it's a no-brainer.


Considering Duke has half the class size and sends its grads all over the country rather than basically just Texas I'm not sure why this is supposed to tell me anything. Unless you're saying placement=placement ability?

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Elston Gunn
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby Elston Gunn » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:29 am

J-e-L-L-o wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Seems like a very reasonable marker to base your decision on.


Sounds good to me. Especially if you want Texas big law. You can easily limit your search to Austin firms and hope to live happily ever afta.

Old, but was this a joke? There are like 50 (or fewer) summer associates in all of Austin.

BigZuck
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Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: UT versus Duke

Postby BigZuck » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:52 am

Elston Gunn wrote:
J-e-L-L-o wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Seems like a very reasonable marker to base your decision on.


Sounds good to me. Especially if you want Texas big law. You can easily limit your search to Austin firms and hope to live happily ever afta.

Old, but was this a joke? There are like 50 (or fewer) summer associates in all of Austin.


Regardless of what it was I ignored it because the poster either misspoke or was trolling.

framboozer
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Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:38 pm

Re: UT versus Duke

Postby framboozer » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:10 am

BigZuck, here is some more food for thought (as if you needed it, right?). Some Duke students with Texas ties were able to snag coveted 1L SA positions in Texas BigLaw, because from what I hear, Texas BigLaw hires far more 1L summer associates than most regions of the country. From what I heard the interviews and offers were made before grades even came out, so it was all about the ties and the fit. The pay from that summer and the fact that you're just about guaranteed a SA position for your 2L year after that would take a big chunk out of your CoA. I would guess that UT students would be at a disadvantage, because it's more of a grab for students at prestigious out of state schools while there's less incentive to take UT kids pre-grades because there's not as much to differentiate them. Definitely post on the Duke facebook group and get them to put you in touch with 1Ls heading to Texas BigLaw in the summer. They can give you a better idea of the situation and how widespread it is. Ask UT students to for comparison.

BigZuck
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby BigZuck » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:39 am

framboozer wrote:BigZuck, here is some more food for thought (as if you needed it, right?). Some Duke students with Texas ties were able to snag coveted 1L SA positions in Texas BigLaw, because from what I hear, Texas BigLaw hires far more 1L summer associates than most regions of the country. From what I heard the interviews and offers were made before grades even came out, so it was all about the ties and the fit. The pay from that summer and the fact that you're just about guaranteed a SA position for your 2L year after that would take a big chunk out of your CoA. I would guess that UT students would be at a disadvantage, because it's more of a grab for students at prestigious out of state schools while there's less incentive to take UT kids pre-grades because there's not as much to differentiate them. Definitely post on the Duke facebook group and get them to put you in touch with 1Ls heading to Texas BigLaw in the summer. They can give you a better idea of the situation and how widespread it is. Ask UT students to for comparison.


Thanks, yeah, I actually have heard this from a lot of Duke and other students at other lower T14s

I guess maybe time for a little update: since I wrote my OP I have gone to both schools' ASWs and both schools have offered me more money. My fiancée has a job offer in Austin paying 50K that would allow her to stay on her chosen career path. If she does that I am assuming she could cover my rent and food and I will get out of UT around 65K in debt (including interest and everything). She might be able to do the same job in North Carolina and if she can then I would get out of Duke around 115K in debt. If I snagged a 1L and 2L SA then Duke would actually be a little cheaper than UT. If she can do the same job in NC then it's a no brainer, I will go to Duke. However if she can't then I will go to UT because if I had to take out more COL loans then Duke would be closer to 150K and she would most likely be in a job that she didn't like/want. I simply don't want to derail her career if we don't have to and even though Duke is a better school and I loved it when I visited its not worth incurring 80K extra debt and hurting her career. I know that UT would sacrifice big law opportunities but its still not an impossibility out of UT and 65K debt would not necessitate big law which sounds kind of awesome to me. A big part of why I wanted TX big law (outside of the potential exit options) was that I thought I would need it to pay off the debt but if I don't then that could potentially be liberating and give me more career flexibility.

We should know in 24 hours whether she can do the job in NC and thus where I will be next year.

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philosoraptor
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby philosoraptor » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:47 am

Want Texas biglaw + Texas ties + networking opportunities + significant cost difference + wife with good job in Austin + living in Austin instead of Durham = UT.

Go to Duke if you want a little more prestige, but otherwise I don't think it should be this close. Of course students from Duke and other T14s get Texas biglaw, even 1L SAs, but it's equally clear that UT dominates these positions. Why would you want to pay so much more (in tuition and lost family income) to go far away from where you want to end up? If you go to UT, you'll be making connections from the beginning with a bunch of future colleagues and others who will be prominent in the legal and political communities in Texas. I get that preftige is a powerful motivator, but this really shouldn't be a tough decision.

BigZuck
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby BigZuck » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:57 am

philosoraptor wrote:Want Texas biglaw + Texas ties + networking opportunities + significant cost difference + wife with good job in Austin + living in Austin instead of Durham = UT.

Go to Duke if you want a little more prestige, but otherwise I don't think it should be this close. Of course students from Duke and other T14s get Texas biglaw, even 1L SAs, but it's equally clear that UT dominates these positions. Why would you want to pay so much more (in tuition and lost family income) to go far away from where you want to end up? If you go to UT, you'll be making connections from the beginning with a bunch of future colleagues and others who will be prominent in the legal and political communities in Texas. I get that preftige is a powerful motivator, but this really shouldn't be a tough decision.


I guess I have become pretty convinced that Texas big law is just easier to get out of Duke. According to Duke students, pretty much all you need are ties and 1L SA are quite common. Not having to stress as much about grades is really appealing to me. It appears that 1L SAs are pretty rare at UT and because only 35ish percent are getting big law or federal clerkships then you need pretty good grades to snag TX big law. Maybe I just drank too much of the Duke kool-aid and I am underestimating UT, totally possible.

I also like Duke more for things that don't really matter that much such as smaller class size, prettier architecture, etc. Plus the staff at Duke are all really nice and friendly and helpful, some of those I have met at UT are a turn off. None of that stuff matters that much though. Really all I am looking at is cost/job opportunities (for both me and my fiancée).

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Elston Gunn
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby Elston Gunn » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:04 am

BigZuck wrote:
framboozer wrote:BigZuck, here is some more food for thought (as if you needed it, right?). Some Duke students with Texas ties were able to snag coveted 1L SA positions in Texas BigLaw, because from what I hear, Texas BigLaw hires far more 1L summer associates than most regions of the country. From what I heard the interviews and offers were made before grades even came out, so it was all about the ties and the fit. The pay from that summer and the fact that you're just about guaranteed a SA position for your 2L year after that would take a big chunk out of your CoA. I would guess that UT students would be at a disadvantage, because it's more of a grab for students at prestigious out of state schools while there's less incentive to take UT kids pre-grades because there's not as much to differentiate them. Definitely post on the Duke facebook group and get them to put you in touch with 1Ls heading to Texas BigLaw in the summer. They can give you a better idea of the situation and how widespread it is. Ask UT students to for comparison.


Thanks, yeah, I actually have heard this from a lot of Duke and other students at other lower T14s

I guess maybe time for a little update: since I wrote my OP I have gone to both schools' ASWs and both schools have offered me more money. My fiancée has a job offer in Austin paying 50K that would allow her to stay on her chosen career path. If she does that I am assuming she could cover my rent and food and I will get out of UT around 65K in debt (including interest and everything). She might be able to do the same job in North Carolina and if she can then I would get out of Duke around 115K in debt. If I snagged a 1L and 2L SA then Duke would actually be a little cheaper than UT. If she can do the same job in NC then it's a no brainer, I will go to Duke. However if she can't then I will go to UT because if I had to take out more COL loans then Duke would be closer to 150K and she would most likely be in a job that she didn't like/want. I simply don't want to derail her career if we don't have to and even though Duke is a better school and I loved it when I visited its not worth incurring 80K extra debt and hurting her career. I know that UT would sacrifice big law opportunities but its still not an impossibility out of UT and 65K debt would not necessitate big law which sounds kind of awesome to me. A big part of why I wanted TX big law (outside of the potential exit options) was that I thought I would need it to pay off the debt but if I don't then that could potentially be liberating and give me more career flexibility.

We should know in 24 hours whether she can do the job in NC and thus where I will be next year.

This is exactly how I would think about it too. Good luck!

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shifty_eyed
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby shifty_eyed » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:53 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
framboozer wrote:BigZuck, here is some more food for thought (as if you needed it, right?). Some Duke students with Texas ties were able to snag coveted 1L SA positions in Texas BigLaw, because from what I hear, Texas BigLaw hires far more 1L summer associates than most regions of the country. From what I heard the interviews and offers were made before grades even came out, so it was all about the ties and the fit. The pay from that summer and the fact that you're just about guaranteed a SA position for your 2L year after that would take a big chunk out of your CoA. I would guess that UT students would be at a disadvantage, because it's more of a grab for students at prestigious out of state schools while there's less incentive to take UT kids pre-grades because there's not as much to differentiate them. Definitely post on the Duke facebook group and get them to put you in touch with 1Ls heading to Texas BigLaw in the summer. They can give you a better idea of the situation and how widespread it is. Ask UT students to for comparison.


Thanks, yeah, I actually have heard this from a lot of Duke and other students at other lower T14s

I guess maybe time for a little update: since I wrote my OP I have gone to both schools' ASWs and both schools have offered me more money. My fiancée has a job offer in Austin paying 50K that would allow her to stay on her chosen career path. If she does that I am assuming she could cover my rent and food and I will get out of UT around 65K in debt (including interest and everything). She might be able to do the same job in North Carolina and if she can then I would get out of Duke around 115K in debt. If I snagged a 1L and 2L SA then Duke would actually be a little cheaper than UT. If she can do the same job in NC then it's a no brainer, I will go to Duke. However if she can't then I will go to UT because if I had to take out more COL loans then Duke would be closer to 150K and she would most likely be in a job that she didn't like/want. I simply don't want to derail her career if we don't have to and even though Duke is a better school and I loved it when I visited its not worth incurring 80K extra debt and hurting her career. I know that UT would sacrifice big law opportunities but its still not an impossibility out of UT and 65K debt would not necessitate big law which sounds kind of awesome to me. A big part of why I wanted TX big law (outside of the potential exit options) was that I thought I would need it to pay off the debt but if I don't then that could potentially be liberating and give me more career flexibility.

We should know in 24 hours whether she can do the job in NC and thus where I will be next year.

This is exactly how I would think about it too. Good luck!


+1
(Although I think a 1L SA is possible from UT, but concede that it is more likely from Duke and not as grade-dependent, it seems)

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Longhorn88
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby Longhorn88 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:50 am

BigZuck wrote:
Considering Duke has half the class size and sends its grads all over the country rather than basically just Texas I'm not sure why this is supposed to tell me anything. Unless you're saying placement=placement ability?


And I agree that if you wanted to practice anywhere besides Texas, Duke is the obvious choice. But their ability to place specifically in Texas has been over-stated so far I think. There's also other inherent difficulties with targeting a different market than the majority of your (future) classmates, mostly just the fact that you'd be going through a slightly different process than people trying to get to NYC or DC. For instance, you don't have the same # of Texas employers coming to campus for OCI, the large Texas firms won't be having recruiting events in Durham like they do in Austin, and it just generally puts a larger onus on you to proactively sell yourself.

That said, if you have significant Texas ties (which you do if I remember correctly), it's very do-able coming from Duke. I just don't think it gives you any particular advantage in this case. Source: Big Law after 50% gpa at UT.

Also I saw in the UT thread that you're looking at housing. PM me if you need any recommendations or tips on choosing neighborhoods.

BigZuck
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby BigZuck » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:37 pm

Longhorn88 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Considering Duke has half the class size and sends its grads all over the country rather than basically just Texas I'm not sure why this is supposed to tell me anything. Unless you're saying placement=placement ability?


And I agree that if you wanted to practice anywhere besides Texas, Duke is the obvious choice. But their ability to place specifically in Texas has been over-stated so far I think. There's also other inherent difficulties with targeting a different market than the majority of your (future) classmates, mostly just the fact that you'd be going through a slightly different process than people trying to get to NYC or DC. For instance, you don't have the same # of Texas employers coming to campus for OCI, the large Texas firms won't be having recruiting events in Durham like they do in Austin, and it just generally puts a larger onus on you to proactively sell yourself.

That said, if you have significant Texas ties (which you do if I remember correctly), it's very do-able coming from Duke. I just don't think it gives you any particular advantage in this case. Source: Big Law after 50% gpa at UT.

Also I saw in the UT thread that you're looking at housing. PM me if you need any recommendations or tips on choosing neighborhoods.


Dean Levi (at Duke) told me that the first big firm who came to recruit this year at Duke was a large Texas firm (Baker Botts I think) and one or more students got a 1L SA out of the event. This was before any law school grades at all. These types of anecdotes are what convinced me that TX big law was easier out of Duke than UT.

Doesn't really matter though, looks like I will end up a Longhorn. Should know by the end of the day. I will definitely PM you about housing, thanks!

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untar614
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby untar614 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:03 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Longhorn88 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Considering Duke has half the class size and sends its grads all over the country rather than basically just Texas I'm not sure why this is supposed to tell me anything. Unless you're saying placement=placement ability?


And I agree that if you wanted to practice anywhere besides Texas, Duke is the obvious choice. But their ability to place specifically in Texas has been over-stated so far I think. There's also other inherent difficulties with targeting a different market than the majority of your (future) classmates, mostly just the fact that you'd be going through a slightly different process than people trying to get to NYC or DC. For instance, you don't have the same # of Texas employers coming to campus for OCI, the large Texas firms won't be having recruiting events in Durham like they do in Austin, and it just generally puts a larger onus on you to proactively sell yourself.

That said, if you have significant Texas ties (which you do if I remember correctly), it's very do-able coming from Duke. I just don't think it gives you any particular advantage in this case. Source: Big Law after 50% gpa at UT.

Also I saw in the UT thread that you're looking at housing. PM me if you need any recommendations or tips on choosing neighborhoods.


Dean Levi (at Duke) told me that the first big firm who came to recruit this year at Duke was a large Texas firm (Baker Botts I think) and one or more students got a 1L SA out of the event. This was before any law school grades at all. These types of anecdotes are what convinced me that TX big law was easier out of Duke than UT.

Doesn't really matter though, looks like I will end up a Longhorn. Should know by the end of the day. I will definitely PM you about housing, thanks!

Check out the firm-sponsored scholarships for Law Preview. Baker Botts sponsors Duke and only Duke: http://www.lawpreview.com/baker-botts
I would take that to mean they do serious recruiting from there.

utlaw2007
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby utlaw2007 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:23 pm

Longhorn88 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Considering Duke has half the class size and sends its grads all over the country rather than basically just Texas I'm not sure why this is supposed to tell me anything. Unless you're saying placement=placement ability?


And I agree that if you wanted to practice anywhere besides Texas, Duke is the obvious choice. But their ability to place specifically in Texas has been over-stated so far I think. There's also other inherent difficulties with targeting a different market than the majority of your (future) classmates, mostly just the fact that you'd be going through a slightly different process than people trying to get to NYC or DC. For instance, you don't have the same # of Texas employers coming to campus for OCI, the large Texas firms won't be having recruiting events in Durham like they do in Austin, and it just generally puts a larger onus on you to proactively sell yourself.

That said, if you have significant Texas ties (which you do if I remember correctly), it's very do-able coming from Duke. I just don't think it gives you any particular advantage in this case. Source: Big Law after 50% gpa at UT.

Also I saw in the UT thread that you're looking at housing. PM me if you need any recommendations or tips on choosing neighborhoods.

BigZuck
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby BigZuck » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:25 am

Ok, it's official. My fiancée was offered a job by her current organization to work remotely in Austin and so I will be heading to UT. I loved Duke but in the end it just wasn't worth it for me to spend 50-100K extra to attend. I do love Austin and UT is still a really good school (especially for what I want) and I am very excited to attend in the fall.

I want to sincerely thank everyone who participated in this thread/offered advice. TLS is an amazing resource and saved me from some mediocre schools with 200K+ debt and for that
I will be eternally grateful. Hopefully this thread will be helpful to someone else making a similar decision in the future!

curious66
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby curious66 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:27 am

Congratulations BigZuck!! UT is an awesome choice! Best of luck and thanks for your advice back on all the threads.

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untar614
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby untar614 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:39 am

congrats, and best of luck. Austin is awesome. Hope you still land that sweet sweet 1L SA.

BigZuck
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Re: UT versus Duke

Postby BigZuck » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:19 am

Thanks guys




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