W&M vs. Wake Forest

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Poll

Wake Forest
15
54%
William & Mary
13
46%
 
Total votes: 28

NCresident88
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W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby NCresident88 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:32 am

Thanks guy, made my decision already! No need for further discussion
Last edited by NCresident88 on Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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sublime
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby sublime » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:23 am

..

NCresident88
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Postby NCresident88 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:00 am

edit
Last edited by NCresident88 on Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

wired
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby wired » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:29 am

W&M 3L here. (So I'm biased.)

My guess is that the cost of living is a wash between the two (you'll pay about the same at either). If that assumption is wrong and WF is dramatically lower, than I might consider WF. But if they're even roughly comparable, I'd take W&M.

You've got the connections to NC. As long as you maintain your networking contacts, you shouldn't lose any significant opportunities. W&M won't hold you back as an inferior school or anything along those lines. I had multiple friends interviewing in NC and none of them experience any problems being from W&M. As far as reputation goes, you'll be fine. The only people who had problems were those who weren't from NC who were trying to get in. Contacts meant a lot to a lot of interviewers.

The downside you'll see at W&M is that you will have to travel for more interviews. WF will likely have more NC interviewers on campus. W&M has some, but (my guess) is not as many. So that means you'll have to reach out to those firms around July of your first summer and start asking about jobs then.

The big upside is that if you attend W&M and kill it (finish in the top 5-10%) you have a chance at DC BigLaw. The tippy top of the class ends up at places like Arnold & Porter, Covington, Gibson Dunn, Hunton, McGuire Woods, Reed Smith, and Venable. I don't know if that's the same for WF, but my impression is that it's not. That and the lower cost of attendance makes it, in my opinion, an easy choice to go to W&M.

NCresident88
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby NCresident88 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:24 pm

edit
Last edited by NCresident88 on Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby romothesavior » Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:39 am

So, 22k/year over three years is 66k, plus tuition increases gets you to over 70k+. Throw in books and fees and we're probably looking at 75k+ just for school expenses. Now add in COL, which with even with a conservative estimate should put you over 100k pretty easily. If you don't get paid during the summer, there's some more cash down the drain. And tack on interest to all of these expenses during your three years in law school. We're probably looking at 120-130k or more for a school with very questionable employment statistics. This is probably outside of what I'd say is "worth it." Do you have any undergraduate debt?

If I'm missing something in your equation, please let me know. But take it from a 3L: this stuff adds up VERY quickly. You will end up with more debt that you expect.

Why are you so against a retake? Because that's exactly what you should do.

And as an aside, the dual degree thing sounds pointless. You should just get a JD.

NCresident88
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby NCresident88 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:22 am

edit
Last edited by NCresident88 on Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby romothesavior » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:42 pm

Do you know what your total indebtedness would be after graduation?

Also, have you tried negotiating with WF?

NCresident88
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby NCresident88 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:40 pm

*
Last edited by NCresident88 on Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

wired
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby wired » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:09 am

Where are you getting that Wake employment number from?

LawSchoolTransparency has WF & WM at an identical 54.4%.

placencia
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby placencia » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:35 am

I am at Wake and though I don't know anyone who has done the Bioethics dual degree, I am in the class Bioethics now and it's awesome. It's a class where half the class are M.D. students, and Chris Coughlin, the professor, is great. I imagine she would be supervising the Bioethics dual degree, and I'm sure if you emailed her with any questions, she would love to talk to you about it if that is a factor in your decision.

I'm not sure exactly where that 70% number comes from, but depending on how you work it out you can get numbers both above and slightly below that using figures here - http://career.law.wfu.edu/stats/.

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dirtrida2
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby dirtrida2 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:44 am

Tagged, interested.

Do you have anything special on your plate? I'm surprised WM threw a scholly at your LSAT (no offense). Maybe that means good news for me, but who knows - I've been waiting a decade and still haven't heard back.

Edit : Waitlisted just now at WM lol.
Last edited by dirtrida2 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby BigZuck » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:29 am

Retake.

June is the perfect time to do it. When and if you score higher in June you won't have a problem waiting a year. That's what happened to me last summer. If you don't score higher and you still want to take the gamble then go to one of these schools (although honestly I think if these are your options then don't go to law school is the best route to take).

Hit 169 and just do Duke.

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romothesavior
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:03 am

BigZuck wrote:Hit 169 and just do Duke.

I agree Duke is probably a great choice for OP but a 169/3.7 is gonna be paying around full-freight. I'd probably recommend Wake for free over Duke at sticker, personally.

OP, you should listen to Zuck and retake. He's a great example of the huge benefits that taking a year off and retaking can have. Take a class, use the resources we have here on TLS... whatever it takes. If you can get into the high 160s/low 170s (and there's no reason to think you can't given how learnable the LSAT is), you will have a world of new options available to you.

BigZuck
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby BigZuck » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:08 am

romothesavior wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Hit 169 and just do Duke.

I agree Duke is probably a great choice for OP but a 169/3.7 is gonna be paying around full-freight. I'd probably recommend Wake for free over Duke at sticker, personally.

OP, you should listen to Zuck and retake. He's a great example of the huge benefits that taking a year off and retaking can have. Take a class, use the resources we have here on TLS... whatever it takes. If you can get into the high 160s/low 170s (and there's no reason to think you can't given how learnable the LSAT is), you will have a world of new options available to you.


Romo, I know of at least one 169/3.7 that got 60K at Duke this cycle. The game has changed, definitely a buyers market right now.

NCresident88
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby NCresident88 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:28 pm

*
Last edited by NCresident88 on Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Greyhound42
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby Greyhound42 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:30 pm

So, you're estimating COL expenses at W & M at ~ 7k / year? Doesn't that seem way low? Just something to consider...

NCresident88
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby NCresident88 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:37 pm

*
Last edited by NCresident88 on Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wakelaw15
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby Wakelaw15 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:33 pm

OP, you are correct on the employment stats. Also, the 2012 #s show 20% of Wake grads with "elite" outcomes (Art III clerkship or big law). Don't count on that at all (only approximately 1/5 will get it), but that combined with the new employment numbers should be considered.

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byronmullens
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Re: W&M vs. Wake Forest

Postby byronmullens » Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:45 pm

So the difference is roughly 30k for the two schools over 3 years. I think with the employment numbers and you see the school funding positions at W&M, much of that is a result of people who want to go in to public service. Right now govt and public interest is where hiring is the slowest and it takes many months to break in. That said I think the one advantage that W&M has is more options for DC. I'll be honest and say people w/o ties to Richmond are not in good shape to work there as its very insular. Really the schools are mostly a wash, but if you want DC than W&M is preferred. Honestly I think your outcome won't be much different depending on W&M or Wake so I don't think a $30k premium is worth it, with such similar outcomes. I think the market is going to improve a bit by c/o 2016, so both schools will see 25-30% w/ elite outcomes just as a result of fewer law students even if firms hire exact same number of SAs. (W&M 2L read what you what into my reply)




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