So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

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Cobretti
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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby Cobretti » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:21 am

spleenworship wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Assuming that OP knows what practicing law is like and actually wants to do it, I agree that she's the type of person for whom this investment makes sense.


This.


lol seriously? that's what all of the 0Ls you attacked were saying. you responded to this:
WokeUpInACar wrote:I think it is pretty silly that TLS has become so over the top negative that someone like you is considering not going. The options you'll have are going to be exponentially better than your current situation. Obviously you shouldn't attend if you don't want to be a lawyer, but I think not going to a t10 law school with $ or a t20 with $$$ just because of concerns about employment prospects, which, while not great, certainly aren't THAT bad, is kinda ridiculous when your curent situation sucks. Succeeding at anything is going to require some risks, and Sinfiery has noted the shortsightedness of many around here who overlook the relatively marginal value that your degree needs to add to make attending a good decision in the long run.


With this:
spleenworship wrote:Okay, if y'all are done having a little group hug-in over here, allow me to 'splain:

I and several others in here are in law school. One of the posters telling you 0Ls not to go to law school is a PROFESSOR OF LAW at a LAW SCHOOL.

Y'all can tell yourselves this is a good idea all you want with all the caveats you want and whatever, but the fact is that for the vast majority of people reading this thread going to law school is an awful, no good, very bad decision. Most of them won't actually shadow or work for a lawyer and will convince themselves they want to be an attorney based off Law and Order re-runs or watching To Kill a Mockingbird or reading a Grisham novel. Then they'll tell themselves it is their dream to be a lawyer or whatnot but they won't want to study to take the LSAT a second time and end up with a marginal score and admitted with a 1/3 tuition scholly at some lower T1/upper T2 with terrible stips and they'll convince themselves they won't be in the bottom 66% and that they'll enjoy the practice of law even though the thought of having to get through another day of law school after they actually start will result in copious amounts of alcohol and adderol going into their systems... and then they'll end up unemployed and $150,000 in debt and suicidal.

I have seen it happen. Seriously. I have watched it happen to a friend and it breaks my heart.

So why don't y'all sit down and read this thread carefully and see what the 2Ls, 3Ls, and law professors are telling you instead of patting yourselves on the back for not having a bad effing attitude.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:23 am

bowser wrote:
Ialdabaoth wrote:
Third, my numbers (168/~4.0; Note: Re-taking is not very practical because I scored about 5 points higher than my PT average after significant studying) are not good enough to get me significant money at a T6. However, Berkeley is my number one feasible choice (Stanford as a reach), due to the practice area I want to get into.

I started to apply this cycle but held off and am trying to decide if it's worth going for it next cycle. What do you all think? Thanks in advance.


I hate to say this, but if you've only taken the test once re-taking is VERY practical. I understand you feel you over-performed or maybe even got a little lucky. But a 170/4.0 puts you in territory where you can actually feel financially comfortable about attending (getting upwards of 100K at a school, or maybe even a HYS acceptance), where as of now you're looking at a very small amount of $ or sticker at a couple of T-14 schools. I mean, if you really feel you have NO shot at getting 2 more points I guess you know yourself best, but there's so much on the line....

I don't know much about your interests. Berkeley is hard to predict, though; you may not get in for whatever reason, leaving you with not-so-great California options.


Telling someone that they need a better score so they should just retake is stupid advice bro. She said she scored well above her average after considerable study. Your advice is basically "go out there are score a 165!"

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby spleenworship » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:23 am

BigZuck wrote:
I agree with wokeupinacar, some of the most vocal anti-law school folks on this site (regardless of what number L they are) have become so cartoonishly over the top that it's just not even worth reading their posts anymore.

Disclaimer: I'm a 0L. .



Come back in 2 years and tell us what you think.

I'm not being a dick, I'm being serious. When you actually start to see your friends go down in flames, even from good schools with good prospects, it changes your thinking.

I feel like a veteran trying to explain why war is a bad thing to 17 year olds in line at the recruiting station.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:25 am

Anyone 0L wanna trade me lives? I got a 160K big lawl offer and 250K in debt. I'll take your 0L, you take my job and debt. I'm keeping the signing bonus though.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby Cobretti » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:26 am

Desert Fox wrote:Anyone 0L wanna trade me lives? I got a 160K big lawl offer and 250K in debt. I'll take your 0L, you take my job and debt. I'm keeping the signing bonus though.

dibs

edit: actually gimme a couple weeks to see how my scholly $ pans out

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby spleenworship » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:28 am

mrizza wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Assuming that OP knows what practicing law is like and actually wants to do it, I agree that she's the type of person for whom this investment makes sense.


This.


lol seriously? that's what all of the 0Ls you attacked were saying. you responded to this:
WokeUpInACar wrote:I think it is pretty silly that TLS has become so over the top negative that someone like you is considering not going. The options you'll have are going to be exponentially better than your current situation. Obviously you shouldn't attend if you don't want to be a lawyer, but I think not going to a t10 law school with $ or a t20 with $$$ just because of concerns about employment prospects, which, while not great, certainly aren't THAT bad, is kinda ridiculous when your curent situation sucks. Succeeding at anything is going to require some risks, and Sinfiery has noted the shortsightedness of many around here who overlook the relatively marginal value that your degree needs to add to make attending a good decision in the long run.


With this:
spleenworship wrote:Okay, if y'all are done having a little group hug-in over here, allow me to 'splain:

I and several others in here are in law school. One of the posters telling you 0Ls not to go to law school is a PROFESSOR OF LAW at a LAW SCHOOL.

Y'all can tell yourselves this is a good idea all you want with all the caveats you want and whatever, but the fact is that for the vast majority of people reading this thread going to law school is an awful, no good, very bad decision. Most of them won't actually shadow or work for a lawyer and will convince themselves they want to be an attorney based off Law and Order re-runs or watching To Kill a Mockingbird or reading a Grisham novel. Then they'll tell themselves it is their dream to be a lawyer or whatnot but they won't want to study to take the LSAT a second time and end up with a marginal score and admitted with a 1/3 tuition scholly at some lower T1/upper T2 with terrible stips and they'll convince themselves they won't be in the bottom 66% and that they'll enjoy the practice of law even though the thought of having to get through another day of law school after they actually start will result in copious amounts of alcohol and adderol going into their systems... and then they'll end up unemployed and $150,000 in debt and suicidal.

I have seen it happen. Seriously. I have watched it happen to a friend and it breaks my heart.

So why don't y'all sit down and read this thread carefully and see what the 2Ls, 3Ls, and law professors are telling you instead of patting yourselves on the back for not having a bad effing attitude.



No. I responded to this:

hopingtogetin wrote: Most of us here haven't even gone to law school yet, so no matter how superior someone sounds, most people don't know shit.


Which I highlighted with the above rant, BTW.

I was responding to y'all patting each other on the back for being all congratulatory of each other being in the happy positive club instead of the actually experienced people negativity club... but I never ever indicated that OP shouldn't go to school. It is just that the majority of the lurkers reading this thread are going to misinterpret y'alls guarded optimism as actual optimism. Hopefully instead they'll interpret my guarded negativity as actual negativity and not go. Because most of them aren't even close to being in OP's position.

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Cobretti
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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby Cobretti » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:31 am

spleenworship wrote:Which I highlighted with the above rant, BTW.

I was responding to y'all patting each other on the back for being all congratulatory of each other being in the happy positive club instead of the actually experienced people negativity club... but I never ever indicated that OP shouldn't go to school. It is just that the majority of the lurkers reading this thread are going to misinterpret y'alls guarded optimism as actual optimism. Hopefully instead they'll interpret my guarded negativity as actual negativity and not go. Because most of them aren't even close to being in OP's position.

OK, but its kind of silly to respond to a thread asking for specific advice for one person by ignoring that person's situation and going on about the general state of affairs to other people that might read this thread. But now that we've cleared that up I think we can agree there was never a disagreement about anything.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby BigZuck » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:34 am

I am very close to being in the OPs position. Large scholarships at T20 schools. Shitty current job. Want to be a lawyer. I will happily go to law school.

I already said most people probably shouldn't go to law school. The OP is not one of those people. The fact that the overly negative posters that car alluded to caused her to question herself is rediculous.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby spleenworship » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:36 am

mrizza wrote:OK, but its kind of silly to respond to a thread asking for specific advice for one person by ignoring that person's situation and going on about the general state of affairs to other people that might read this thread.



I had already responded to OP's concerns prior to this whole debacle that my erasure was supposed to avoid.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby 052220151 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:42 am

Rizza has been getting increasingly feisty.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:44 am

I'll sorta agree with romo. People are off about the "don't go to law school" advice. And T6 for free, or HYS only, is pretty stupid. For some people, even HYS is not worth it. And for some a TTT is worth it.

For those who want to a lawyer no matter what. What I mean by that is, you WANT to be a shitlawyer. And I mean informed decision, no watching Suits with a boner, I mean you know what shit law is and you want it. For you: Law school - tuition free at a semi respected school in your area is worth it. But you can't really have any significant amount of debt.

For those who only want biglaw, gov., prestige PI: It's really only worth it if you have a good chance at big law relative to your debt load.

YHS: ~100K of debt. Sure, you've got a 90% at big law. But that won't save you from Lathaming or getting Dewey'd. It won't save you when you hate your life because your job ruins you emotionally. It won't save you when your wife threatens to leave you because she hasn't seen you. And it sure as fuck won't save you from getting marched out of big law when your time comes like every associate who doesn't make partner gets marchd out.

T14: 75-100K

T 14 adjacent: 50Kish

T1: Don't go for any amount. 80% chance you are riding the shitlaw express. It's not worth 3 years, no matter what it costs you.

The problem with the law school gamble is that you take a huge risk of literally ruinous debt but if you win you just get a job that barely pays your loan back.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby bowser » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:45 am

Desert Fox wrote:
bowser wrote:I hate to say this, but if you've only taken the test once re-taking is VERY practical. I understand you feel you over-performed or maybe even got a little lucky. But a 170/4.0 puts you in territory where you can actually feel financially comfortable about attending (getting upwards of 100K at a school, or maybe even a HYS acceptance), where as of now you're looking at a very small amount of $ or sticker at a couple of T-14 schools. I mean, if you really feel you have NO shot at getting 2 more points I guess you know yourself best, but there's so much on the line....

I don't know much about your interests. Berkeley is hard to predict, though; you may not get in for whatever reason, leaving you with not-so-great California options.


Telling someone that they need a better score so they should just retake is stupid advice bro. She said she scored well above her average after considerable study. Your advice is basically "go out there are score a 165!"


Most people who get a 168 on their first try can get a 170 on their second or third. Poster may not be most people; there is evidence she may not be. She has a GPA where she can get huge scholarships at T-14 with 2 more points. Also many people who feel they got an acceptable score convince themselves it's the best they can do because they don't want to go through the ordeal of studying again; but practically, you're talking about 100K (150K after interest). Again, poster knows herself best. I would retake unless she feels like she has almost zero chance of doing better.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby sinfiery » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:46 am

mrizza wrote:I think we can agree there was never a disagreement about anything.

I really hope this is what practicing law is like.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby spleenworship » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:51 am

sinfiery wrote:
mrizza wrote:I think we can agree there was never a disagreement about anything.

I really hope this is what practicing law is like.


Sometimes, but not often.

Most of the time you and opposing counsel still think the other one was totally wrong. It just isn't worth it to fight about it anymore and so you go out for drinks instead.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby sinfiery » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:09 am

spleenworship wrote:Sometimes, but not often.

Most of the time you and opposing counsel still think the other one was totally wrong. It just isn't worth it to fight about it anymore and so you go out for drinks instead.

Close enough. I'm excited.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby star fox » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:14 am

So I think I would like practicing law but obviously I've never actually practiced law, what's a good way to find out if it's something I might actually enjoy?

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby spleenworship » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:18 am

john7234797 wrote:So I think I would like practicing law but obviously I've never actually practiced law, what's a good way to find out if it's something I might actually enjoy?



Work for a law firm, take an internship at a law firm, or shadow an attorney.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby star fox » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:20 am

spleenworship wrote:
john7234797 wrote:So I think I would like practicing law but obviously I've never actually practiced law, what's a good way to find out if it's something I might actually enjoy?



Work for a law firm, take an internship at a law firm, or shadow an attorney.


Any law office or a big firm in particular in your opinion?

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby spleenworship » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:22 am

john7234797 wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
john7234797 wrote:So I think I would like practicing law but obviously I've never actually practiced law, what's a good way to find out if it's something I might actually enjoy?



Work for a law firm, take an internship at a law firm, or shadow an attorney.


Any law office or a big firm in particular in your opinion?



If you can work/intern/shadow someone in a practice area you are interested in, that's better. Barring that, any experience will do. Most attorney's jobs, regardless of practice area, are remarkably similar.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:39 am

ChampagnePapi wrote:
Ialdabaoth wrote:If it's alright (and just ignore me if it's not), I'd like to jump in here and see what people think about attending law school coming from my circumstances, which are significantly different than the OP's and than many of the situations discussed here.

First, most of the situations discussed here have involved people with no practical understanding of law, but I have been working as a paralegal at a midsize NYC firm since August and actually do enjoy the work for the most part. It's not the sub-area in which I would eventually like to practice (renewable energy finance), but it's in the general area (corporate finance).

Second, I DO, however, have a fairly well-paying job, instead of the OP's close to minimum wage position. However, obviously, paralegal jobs don't lead to great careers without a law degree. At the same time, as I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in renewable energy finance, so I could possible try to get an MBA instead of a law degree (but I kind of suck at math).

Third, my numbers (168/~4.0; Note: Re-taking is not very practical because I scored about 5 points higher than my PT average after significant studying) are not good enough to get me significant money at a T6. However, Berkeley is my number one feasible choice (Stanford as a reach), due to the practice area I want to get into.

I started to apply this cycle but held off and am trying to decide if it's worth going for it next cycle. What do you all think? Thanks in advance.

Is a good MBA program even an option with paralegal work experience?


Possibly--I've heard varying opinions on that issue. But I'm also scoping out related entry-level positions right now (e.g. energy trading, finance, nonprofits, etc.)

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:59 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Ialdabaoth wrote:If it's alright (and just ignore me if it's not), I'd like to jump in here and see what people think about attending law school coming from my circumstances, which are significantly different than the OP's and than many of the situations discussed here.

First, most of the situations discussed here have involved people with no practical understanding of law, but I have been working as a paralegal at a midsize NYC firm since August and actually do enjoy the work for the most part. It's not the sub-area in which I would eventually like to practice (renewable energy finance), but it's in the general area (corporate finance).

Second, I DO, however, have a fairly well-paying job, instead of the OP's close to minimum wage position. However, obviously, paralegal jobs don't lead to great careers without a law degree. At the same time, as I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in renewable energy finance, so I could possible try to get an MBA instead of a law degree (but I kind of suck at math).

Third, my numbers (168/~4.0; Note: Re-taking is not very practical because I scored about 5 points higher than my PT average after significant studying) are not good enough to get me significant money at a T6. However, Berkeley is my number one feasible choice (Stanford as a reach), due to the practice area I want to get into.

I started to apply this cycle but held off and am trying to decide if it's worth going for it next cycle. What do you all think? Thanks in advance.


Doesn't anyone actually do renewable energy finance as a legal speciality? It's way too obscure to have people build a practice on it. At least a practice that will hire you to work for them. Why would renewable energy projects need their own specialty.

And this is coming from a guy who actually did legal work on renewable energy finance.


There is a Chambers sub-category for it now (http://www.chambersandpartners.com/USA/Editorial/71038), and I know people at Boalt who have built their law school curricula around going into the field and have successfully landed related summer associate positions. Firms like Orrick and Bingham have significant practices. Also, renewable energy finance will obviously remain a sub-field of corporate finance/energy finance, but there are a lot of permitting, tax and incentive issues that have led/are leading to its development as a distinct practice area. Last, I would be happy working on other energy and corporate finance deals; I'm not the type of environmentalist who would only "feel right" working on wind and solar projects. My current job certainly doesn't make me sound like an environmentalist, haha.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby laxbrah420 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:03 am

spleenworship wrote:Okay, if y'all are done having a little group hug-in over here, allow me to 'splain:

I and several others in here are in law school. One of the posters telling you 0Ls not to go to law school is a PROFESSOR OF LAW at a LAW SCHOOL.

Y'all can tell yourselves this is a good idea all you want with all the caveats you want and whatever, but the fact is that for the vast majority of people reading this thread going to law school is an awful, no good, very bad decision. Most of them won't actually shadow or work for a lawyer and will convince themselves they want to be an attorney based off Law and Order re-runs or watching To Kill a Mockingbird or reading a Grisham novel. Then they'll tell themselves it is their dream to be a lawyer or whatnot but they won't want to study to take the LSAT a second time and end up with a marginal score and admitted with a 1/3 tuition scholly at some lower T1/upper T2 with terrible stips and they'll convince themselves they won't be in the bottom 66% and that they'll enjoy the practice of law even though the thought of having to get through another day of law school after they actually start will result in copious amounts of alcohol and adderol going into their systems... and then they'll end up unemployed and $150,000 in debt and suicidal.

I have seen it happen. Seriously. I have watched it happen to a friend and it breaks my heart.

So why don't y'all sit down and read this thread carefully and see what the 2Ls, 3Ls, and law professors are telling you instead of patting yourselves on the back for not having a bad effing attitude.

The fact that Paul Campos is a law professor is probably the least convincing bit of his act. "Well, I'm tenured, how best can I make a name for myself?"...
TSO BRAVE.
We've got Brian Leiter vs. Paul Campos. Score 1-1. Who fucking cares. Read the content of their messages. Campos writes more convincingly, I believe. But yea, "A FUCKING LAW PROFESSOR" is kind of meaningless considering the silence of so many others who could just as easily be TSO BRAVE.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby twinkletoes16 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:01 am

BigZuck wrote:I am very close to being in the OPs position. Large scholarships at T20 schools. Shitty current job. Want to be a lawyer. I will happily go to law school.

I already said most people probably shouldn't go to law school. The OP is not one of those people. The fact that the overly negative posters that car alluded to caused her to question herself is rediculous.



Though we were adversaries at first, gotta say Zuck, if someone's gotta be in my boat, I'm glad it's you!


I think I'm at the point where I've been researching for so long and scaring myself silly that it's becoming ingrained in me and I should probably take a step back from the google.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby twinkletoes16 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:04 am

spleenworship wrote:
mrizza wrote:OK, but its kind of silly to respond to a thread asking for specific advice for one person by ignoring that person's situation and going on about the general state of affairs to other people that might read this thread.



I had already responded to OP's concerns prior to this whole debacle that my erasure was supposed to avoid.



Yeah, idk what's going on. I wasn't trying to make this specifically about me, and only framed my "I'm pretty sure I'm making the right decision but can someone confirm?" question within a larger discussion of who should/n't be going to law school. You did both. Keep doing your thing, spleen.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby Lwoods » Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:02 am

Law is a career choice, not a job choice. You can try lots of different jobs in your twenties (or your whole life, if you'd like), but a career requires investment. So, while I'm all for doing things on a whim or because you're bored or because you can't think of anything better to do, law school is not one of those things.

The first big thing to consider is what you want out of law school.

Then you have to really look at the data to see if going to law school will help you achieve that goal. Maybe it'll only be possible to do what you want if you attend a certain school or a school within a certain subsection of schools (probably based on overall prestige but could also be based on region or alumni network).

Next consider if it's possible to do what you want without going to law school. If so, do a cost/benefit analysis comparing your options. For example, if you want to go into politics, will you benefit more by getting a JD, considering the expense, than you would by networking alone?

Everybody has different goals, so it can't be a straight economic choice. However, I think the above analysis would be useful for most. Just keep in mind: don't choose law for the money. Don't choose any career for the money. You can choose a job or the money, but a career takes time, passion, and commitment. Money alone won't compensate for that.

Personally, I'm a 2L at a T1 with half-tuition instate, and I don't regret my choice. I did poorly first semester but have improved ever since. I came to law school because I worked in a law firm and really loved the work. I loved the projects associates hated. Biglaw is very unlikely for me at this point, but I'm still confident I will be able to go in-house within a few years. I may also change my mind about which legal job(s) I want. But I know I want to practice law, and I know I'll be able to. The debt won't be fun, but since my ex is a doctor, I already know what it's like to pay student loan debt (his is still triple what mine will be). For me, though, it's all worth it because I really like law and want to practice it.

I don't think anyone who really wants to practice law and knows that after careful consideration of what that means should feel like they can't pursue law because the job market sucks. You just have to go in with eyes wide open and still want to practice law if that means hanging your own shingle.




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