So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:52 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
albusdumbledore wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:Saying that Campos' arguments aren't valid because he is a law professor is a fallacious ad hominem attack. However, I can also see how his remarks, in light of his behavior, are troublesome for some. I do not think that he should have to become a sacrifice to get the word out - that wouldn't be fair. He has invested his career in law and, like many of those who have "disappeared," might not be able to find decent employment if he gave it up. Even so, it is odd that he continues to assist in the perpetuation of a broken system that he simultaneously denounces. It is great that he wants to provide more transparency, but at the same time he supports an institution with horrific employment statistics. I suppose he could be classified under the "do as I say, not as I do" category.

The thing about Campos is that he goes so far to make a moral argument against law and the system. If he really believes these schools are doing something objectively wrong, then he's tacitly implicating himself in it, so, right or wrong, the position he's in doesn't exactly do any favors to the argument. It's like your coke dealer telling you that drugs are bad.

No, because law school doesn't have to be this way. He's making an argument to reform legal education given the realities of the profession, not to throw out the whole endeavor. If he were saying that law school will always be bad for everybody, then yeah, it would be hypocritical to remain a law professor, but there is nothing wrong with criticizing an institution he's a part of if his goal is to improve it.

Well, there kind of is something wrong with it... Campos is saying that law school is a "scam," yet his salary is coming from those who are being "scammed" (and he is aware of this fact), which in a sense makes him a "scammer." albusdumbledore's analogy of the street pharmacist was right on.


what's true for the school is true for its employees?

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby Bronck » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:52 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:So you think it's a moral imperative for someone not only to blow the whistle, but also to quit their job, when they see something going on at work that they don't like? I think that is insane, and I also think it is a quick way to ensure the only people left are those with worse ethics.


+1. Sure, Campos may be hyperbolic in some of his rhetoric, but he's played an important role in shifting dialogue. It doesn't matter what role he currently plays if his message contains a lot of truth.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:22 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Also, 5-7 years to recoup costs is a very conservative rule, but it's also pretty realistic for most people with liberal arts degrees (i.e. they could expect to make $45-50,000) going into biglaw. So even that rule means law school turns out to be an okay move for a lot of people.

When you take the cost of law school and three years of lost wages no one is going to pay that back in 5-7 years without a gigantic scholarship. And the better the law school the higher the typical opportunity cost, so for many even Yale doesn't pass the test.

I expect my first year in biglaw to more or less make up for the financial opportunity cost of three years in law school, and to have my loans paid off by year four or five, conservatively. I did not borrow sticker, but still have significant debt. There are lots and lots of others like me. It's not that crazy.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby 20141023 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:48 pm

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:59 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Also, 5-7 years to recoup costs is a very conservative rule, but it's also pretty realistic for most people with liberal arts degrees (i.e. they could expect to make $45-50,000) going into biglaw. So even that rule means law school turns out to be an okay move for a lot of people.

When you take the cost of law school and three years of lost wages no one is going to pay that back in 5-7 years without a gigantic scholarship. And the better the law school the higher the typical opportunity cost, so for many even Yale doesn't pass the test.

I expect my first year in biglaw to more or less make up for the financial opportunity cost of three years in law school, and to have my loans paid off by year four or five, conservatively. I did not borrow sticker, but still have significant debt. There are lots and lots of others like me. It's not that crazy.

Campos wouldn't disagree that it works out for some people, but he wouldn't put an expected salary for an NYU grad anywhere near 160K nor would he let anyone expect to be able to hang on to BigLaw for 4-5 years.

By the way, people seem to be ignoring the fact that law school is essentially a three year vacation. Gotta be some value in that.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby rad lulz » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:04 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:By the way, people seem to be ignoring the fact that law school is essentially a three year vacation. Gotta be some value in that.

I've hated law school all except for one semester, though I suppose it's better than billing 2000 hours

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby pedestrian » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:06 pm

I'm guessing that Colorado Law does not ask Prof. Campos to reach out to admits.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby NYstate » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:14 pm

You guys know that Prof. Campos isn't blogging anymore, right?

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby 20141023 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:24 pm

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby NYstate » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:32 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
NYstate wrote:You guys know that Prof. Campos isn't blogging anymore, right?

Paul Campos wrote:All of which is to say that I’ve said what I have to say, at least in this format. I’ll continue to write on this topic, both in academic venues, in the popular media, and even from time to time in blog form, at Lawyers, Guns and Money. But the time has come to move on from here.

He will continue spreading the word, just not on ITLSS.


That is why I said "blogging." People object to the title that referred to the " law school scam." I'm assuming no one thinks he should quit if he does conferences, talks and forums on educational reform? Or writes for huffington post occasionally ? Maybe a NY times interview or quote as needed?

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:34 pm

NYstate wrote:That is why I said "blogging." People object to the title that referred to the " law school scam." I'm assuming no one thinks he should quit if he does conferences, talks and forums on educational reform? Or writes for huffington post occasionally ? Maybe a NY times interview or quote as needed?

Calm down. No one thinks he should quit.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby NYstate » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:45 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
NYstate wrote:That is why I said "blogging." People object to the title that referred to the " law school scam." I'm assuming no one thinks he should quit if he does conferences, talks and forums on educational reform? Or writes for huffington post occasionally ? Maybe a NY times interview or quote as needed?

Calm down. No one thinks he should quit.

Oh. I guess I misunderstood the "scammer" and " street pharmacist" comments. Just wondered in which contexts it was deemed appropriate for a law professor to comment about realities of legal education.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby toothbrush » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:52 pm

It really fucking sucks that I feel like I'm in a similar position to twinkle (minus some offers) and, this late in the game, I feel that TLS / ite / teh google has dissuaded me from following through with law school.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:17 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Also, 5-7 years to recoup costs is a very conservative rule, but it's also pretty realistic for most people with liberal arts degrees (i.e. they could expect to make $45-50,000) going into biglaw. So even that rule means law school turns out to be an okay move for a lot of people.

When you take the cost of law school and three years of lost wages no one is going to pay that back in 5-7 years without a gigantic scholarship. And the better the law school the higher the typical opportunity cost, so for many even Yale doesn't pass the test.

I expect my first year in biglaw to more or less make up for the financial opportunity cost of three years in law school, and to have my loans paid off by year four or five, conservatively. I did not borrow sticker, but still have significant debt. There are lots and lots of others like me. It's not that crazy.

Campos wouldn't disagree that it works out for some people, but he wouldn't put an expected salary for an NYU grad anywhere near 160K nor would he let anyone expect to be able to hang on to BigLaw for 4-5 years.

By the way, people seem to be ignoring the fact that law school is essentially a three year vacation. Gotta be some value in that.

That's another way in which this calculus is really conservative. It's assuming you got zero value from law school, and will continue to get zero value from being a lawyer. (Though that second part might actually be optimistic, maybe on average there is a negative value to being a lawyer.)

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby haus » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:50 am

NYstate wrote:You guys know that Prof. Campos isn't blogging anymore, right?

He seems to be a regular contributor to the blog 'Lawyers, Guns & Money'.

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/author/paul-campos

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby star fox » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:51 am

Campos has been a critical figure in helping to bring about more law school transparency. Frankly, I don't give a damn if he's technically a scammer or what not because of the good he's done, and him being in the position he's in is what gives his claims legitimacy in the first place.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby laxbrah420 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:30 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:By the way, people seem to be ignoring the fact that law school is essentially a three year vacation. Gotta be some value in that.

When you say that people forget that, please remember that I post this in virtually every on topic thread I participate in. Law school is a fucking blast and extends UG 3 years.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby spleenworship » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:48 am

toothbrush wrote:It really fucking sucks that I feel like I'm in a similar position to twinkle (minus some offers) and, this late in the game, I feel that TLS / ite / teh google has dissuaded me from following through with law school.


If you are in a similar position to OP, you can go and have a reasonably good shot at life.

It's up to you. But there is risk averse, and then there is risk phobia. You gotta figure out which is going on in your head.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby annieT » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:37 pm

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby twinkletoes16 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:12 pm

annieT wrote:Twinkletoes...
I'm sure this thread went somewhere you never anticipated (or so I'm supposing), but I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering what your decision may be...



I'm still not really sure. When I talk to people out in the real world (current students, current lawyers, recent grads, etc.) the outlook seems pretty positive. Not overwhelmingly fanatical about law school, but still optimistic. Then I read around here or on reddit/jdundergrouund and I start to doubt myself again/think I should just crawl into a hole because my life will be shit and all of us recent grads are mostly fucked.

I think going to some ASWs will help to clarify, as well as some more $$$ offers coming in. Still waiting to hear on $ from 3/4 more schools and that could make all the difference. If a lower T14 offers me some substantial cash I might be going. I also have been so far removed from law school/legal setting now that I think being back in it and trying to picture myself there for three years could help a lot. Going to one tomorrow, so fingers crossed I love it like I think I will and gain some clarity.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:27 pm

OP you have great numbers but you are definitely underperforming them you need to negotiate hard. Those are some solid acceptances, but I would be skeptical of that debt.

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby annieT » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:15 pm

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Re: So ITE....who SHOULD go to law school?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:24 pm

I didn't find ASWs that helpful as to whether to go to law school vs. not go. They were fun for getting drunk and meeting my classmates though.




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