The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

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sweetfrenchtoast
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The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby sweetfrenchtoast » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:29 pm

Here on TLS, most posters imply--nay, directly state!--a "T14 or BUST" approach to law school admissions. However, I'm sure it's also a good idea to go somewhere that you may be able to "more easily" succeed (that is, work just as hard but compete on a level where you're a "bigger fish"). I know there will be a lot of push-back to the idea of how much work/"intelligence"/etc is required to succeed at certain schools as opposed to other schools OR where the "best of the best" are...but I want to open up that debate. Given that grades/law review/"numbers" seem to matter the most for job prospects, one could imagine that graduating at the top of a T40 might put you in a better position than graduating in the middle/bottom of a T10. Yes/no?

DO NOTE: In no way is this a post about being lazy (if anyone got that idea) or noncompetitive. NOR should one think that just because a school is a "reach" means they'll graduate in the bottom of their class. When I was applying to school as an undergrad, I was sure that I'd be eaten alive at the school I chose to go to given my high school GPA/SAT score/socioeconomic background. Didn't happen. I'm sure the same applies for law school.

K Rock
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby K Rock » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:31 pm

No.

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lawhopeful10
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby lawhopeful10 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:34 pm

Yea any school is fine since you will obviously work hard and be top of your class........

rad lulz
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby rad lulz » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:35 pm

You can't predict where you will end up in the class.

Working "super harder than everyone else" guarantees nothing

LSAT and GPA are decent but not awesome predictors, especially for the individual

This topic has been discussed to death

WahooLaw24
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby WahooLaw24 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:36 pm

No.

/thread

09042014
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:40 pm

Job prospects drop off much faster than student quality does. A below median student at a T10 isn't suddenly going to be top 10% at a T40. Maybe they'd be NEAR top 10% at a total TTT, but a TTT doesn't place 10% of students in good jobs. And I'm not even sure they'd be near the top 10%.

Though, this might work once you get past the first tier of schools. I certainly wouldn't go to a T2 if you can go to a T3 for free.

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Ded Precedent
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby Ded Precedent » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:41 pm

If you think having a high LSAT and GPA in relation to your class gives you a meaningful advantage in writing law school exams you're kidding yourself.

09042014
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:50 pm

Ded Precedent wrote:If you think having a high LSAT and GPA in relation to your class gives you a meaningful advantage in writing law school exams you're kidding yourself.


There is an advantage but it's small unless the GAP is extreme.

TLS and law school admissions are extremely sensitive to small changes in numbers. 3.9 /173 and 3.7/169 are basically the same. But it's the difference between going to YHS, or paying sticker at Cornell. So people here thing it's a huge difference. But it's not at all. Even 180 vs. 170 isn't a huge deal.

And anything other than minor self study for the LSAT will distort it too.

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Ded Precedent
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby Ded Precedent » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:53 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Ded Precedent wrote:If you think having a high LSAT and GPA in relation to your class gives you a meaningful advantage in writing law school exams you're kidding yourself.


There is an advantage but it's small unless the GAP is extreme.

TLS and law school admissions are extremely sensitive to small changes in numbers. 3.9 /173 and 3.7/169 are basically the same. But it's the difference between going to YHS, or paying sticker at Cornell. So people here thing it's a huge difference. But it's not at all. Even 180 vs. 170 isn't a huge deal.

And anything other than minor self study for the LSAT will distort it too.

Exactly, it's not a meaningful advantage and it certainly isn't significant enough to figure into the equation when you're considering which school to attend.

20141023
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby 20141023 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:53 pm

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:35 pm

sweetfrenchtoast wrote:Given that grades/law review/"numbers" seem to matter the most for job prospects, one could imagine that graduating at the top of a T40 might put you in a better position than graduating in the middle/bottom of a T10. Yes/no?

Everyone and their dog has said this/is going to say this, but: the difference between a T40 and a T10 is not so great that you can predict any kind of difference like this. You're talking about small variations in GPA/LSAT. Someone who is at the top of their T40 would probably still do well at a T10. Someone who is at the bottom of their T10 is not necessarily going to do better at a T40. If you want concrete evidence of this: every year, there are people who are at the top of their TTT school who transfer to a T14 and end up...at the top of their T14 class. No, not all transfers, but certainly some. Since there's no way to predict where you, personally, will fall on this spectrum, and the likelihood is only worth banking on when the difference between the schools are vast (yes, if you get into the T14, I am willing to gamble that you would do well at a TTTT school), it doesn't make a lot of sense to pass up a school with better employment options for one with really poor employment options.

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romothesavior
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:47 pm

Everything DF said is TCR.

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pruufreadr
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby pruufreadr » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:06 pm

I'll try another angle here on the top 10% problem. Maybe it'll help. If you would like to believe that your entry numbers guarantee success at their level, consider that 24% of students at these schools are at or above the 75% median for lsat/gpa. The numbers of the top 10% are unknown to you.

Some people live across the street, some do take the full-ride to a school not far from home, some have friends-of-the-family faculty--maybe someone is willing to move to take care of grandma before she dies. My favorite: job prospects for family members.

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lhanvt13
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby lhanvt13 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:10 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:Here are some fellow law school applicants who will also be in the top of their classes. You should probably start conversing with them as soon as possible.

Good god those posts made me giggle like a little girl.. (220lb man here)

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DonDrapersAttorney
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby DonDrapersAttorney » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:13 pm

Having gone to a school where I was comfortably in the top % of applicants, I can say law school exams are really their own beasts. They have absolutely NOTHING to do with LSAT/GPA. Doing well is really correlated with how much time you spend on the material.

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guano
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby guano » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:41 pm

The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

this should read "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed, i.e. the T14"

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star fox
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby star fox » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:41 pm

My gut instinct tells me it's not going to be easier to be top 10 % at a TT/TTT (what you need for success.. that is being able to pick your post-grad outcome) than it is to be around the median at a T14.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:45 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Job prospects drop off much faster than student quality does.

This.

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hephaestus
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby hephaestus » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:55 pm

guano wrote:
The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

this should read "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed, i.e. the T14"

Yes this. Everyone says that they'll gun their way to top 10%, but that fails for 90% of people. Go somewhere you can succeed at median.

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longlivetheking
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby longlivetheking » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:11 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:Here are some fellow law school applicants who will also be in the top of their classes. You should probably start conversing with them as soon as possible.



I LOL'ED SO FUCKIGN HARD AT THIS. thank you kappycaft1.

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: The "Go Somewhere You'll Succeed" v T14 Debate

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:19 pm

If you're top of your class at a T40, you're not going to be bottom of the class at a T10. It doesn't work that way.




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