Best medium/small markets with no ties

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rad lulz
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rad lulz » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:49 pm

Ruxin1 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:I think there is a faction of people who post very frequently and all attend >T20 schools. In this faction, the view is that legal jobs are hard to come by without geographic ties. Then there is another group, mainly attending <T20 schools, who feel that legal jobs are hard to come by without geographic ties, but going to a regional school is a tie to that region. Obviously, I'm in the latter group, and I am particularly frustrated not only because the first group disseminates information with which I disagree, but because the first group has absolutely zero experience attending regional schools.

Nobody is saying that going to a local school is not a tie. We are saying that the person whose only tie is a local school is at a disadvantage to someone who is born/bred from that area. When only half or so of the people at local schools actually get jobs as lawyers it seems stupid to put yourself behind the 8 ball by attending a school where you have no previous ties but the majority of your classmates do.

This


I am sure Bearsgrl will refute, but TLS really downplays (to some people's detriment) how parochial and good ole' boy network some southern states are.

I definitely don't

Me and you are from the same general area; I know you know bro

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Ruxin1
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Ruxin1 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:51 pm

Yeah I boomer'd up the quote, should have said besides you and Romo, meant more just the randos that respond in the choosing a school threads.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:59 pm

Ruxin1 wrote:I am sure Bearsgrl will refute, but TLS really downplays (to some people's detriment) how parochial and good ole' boy network some southern states are.

Maybe that's one of the issues in this debate. I completely agree with the above about southern states (at least, as someone from the northeast who tried living in a southern state for 3 years - pre-law school). Whereas Colorado, like McDuff's talking about, and some other parts of the west/southwest, are places tons of outsiders move to (which means having had your family there for generations can kinda be a big deal, but there are so many non-native folks that it's still pretty open to outsiders). I've always thought one of the reasons why NYC is the default for so many biglaw-bound is that NYC is another place that tons of people move to from elsewhere, so ties aren't really relevant. (I mean, apart from the obvious and more important reason that it's where so much of biglaw is.)

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romothesavior
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:06 am

I don't see what's even remotely controversial about Grimes post.

Someone from Raleigh will generally have a harder time getting a job in Peoria from UIUC than someone from Springfield. Someone from Dallas will generally have a harder time getting a job in Cincinnati from OSU than someone from Dayton. Someone from Indianapolis will have a harder time getting a job in Orlando from UF than someone from Tampa. Someone from Detroit will have a harder time getting a job in Houston from UT than someone from Houston.

Its not a hard and fast bar, and there are variations in the difficulty and insularity of markets. But its a very real thing, it isn't just limited to the private T20s, and its something that should be considered in choosing schools. I really don't see what's so difficult to understand or controversial about this.

rad lulz
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rad lulz » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:19 am

romothesavior wrote:I don't see what's even remotely controversial about Grimes post.

Someone from Raleigh will generally have a harder time getting a job in Peoria from UIUC than someone from Springfield. Someone from Dallas will generally have a harder time getting a job in Cincinnati from OSU than someone from Dayton. Someone from Indianapolis will have a harder time getting a job in Orlando from UF than someone from Tampa. Someone from Detroit will have a harder time getting a job in Houston from UT than someone from Houston.

Its not a hard and fast bar, and there are variations in the difficulty and insularity of markets. But its a very real thing, it isn't just limited to the private T20s, and its something that should be considered in choosing schools. I really don't see what's so difficult to understand or controversial about this.

McDuff keeps talking about going to a local school being a "sufficient tie" when in reality ties aren't like a box you check and then you're good. Sometimes ties are neither strictly necessary (ex: Bham firms would go ahead and hire 1Ls from my school not from Alabama with top grades for 1L SAs) nor sufficient (being from Bham with shit grades probably ain't gonna get you a job there if you don't have a cool network).
Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:23 am

Yep. I think I said the neither necessary nor sufficient thing in this very thread. But shooting down strawmen is far more enjoyable apparently.

rad lulz
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rad lulz » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:29 am

romothesavior wrote:Yep. I think I said the neither necessary nor sufficient thing in this very thread. But shooting down strawmen is far more enjoyable apparently.

Yeah probably.

I just quote for truth all your poasts without reading doe

Echo chamber bro

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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby BearsGrl » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:42 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Ruxin1 wrote:I am sure Bearsgrl will refute, but TLS really downplays (to some people's detriment) how parochial and good ole' boy network some southern states are.

Maybe that's one of the issues in this debate. I completely agree with the above about southern states (at least, as someone from the northeast who tried living in a southern state for 3 years - pre-law school). Whereas Colorado, like McDuff's talking about, and some other parts of the west/southwest, are places tons of outsiders move to (which means having had your family there for generations can kinda be a big deal, but there are so many non-native folks that it's still pretty open to outsiders). I've always thought one of the reasons why NYC is the default for so many biglaw-bound is that NYC is another place that tons of people move to from elsewhere, so ties aren't really relevant. (I mean, apart from the obvious and more important reason that it's where so much of biglaw is.)


I agree with your general post. However, as someone that lives/went to school in the Midwest, along with going to school out West, the Midwest/South seem like credible counterparts. Both regions are small-city dominated. California didn't have a small city. And by small, I mean 20,000 or less. I know of towns in the Midwest that are unincorporated (not sure if this exists elsewhere) and thus what someone views as "small" depends on where you grew up.

I think a lot of what TLS says is commonsense, in terms of what Romo said below. That doesn't need to be quoted though or repeated because obviously the local state person is going to have the best opportunity.

But if the person that goes to Duke wants to work in Raleigh, then he should probably join local Raleigh networking clubs and business associations, among a host of other commonsense strategies.

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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby BearsGrl » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:43 am

romothesavior wrote:I don't see what's even remotely controversial about Grimes post.

Someone from Raleigh will generally have a harder time getting a job in Peoria from UIUC than someone from Springfield. Someone from Dallas will generally have a harder time getting a job in Cincinnati from OSU than someone from Dayton. Someone from Indianapolis will have a harder time getting a job in Orlando from UF than someone from Tampa. Someone from Detroit will have a harder time getting a job in Houston from UT than someone from Houston.

Its not a hard and fast bar, and there are variations in the difficulty and insularity of markets. But its a very real thing, it isn't just limited to the private T20s, and its something that should be considered in choosing schools. I really don't see what's so difficult to understand or controversial about this.


This is all basic commonsense though. It doesn't need to be stated. This isn't a law-only related concept though.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rickgrimes69 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:48 am

BearsGrl wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I don't see what's even remotely controversial about Grimes post.

Someone from Raleigh will generally have a harder time getting a job in Peoria from UIUC than someone from Springfield. Someone from Dallas will generally have a harder time getting a job in Cincinnati from OSU than someone from Dayton. Someone from Indianapolis will have a harder time getting a job in Orlando from UF than someone from Tampa. Someone from Detroit will have a harder time getting a job in Houston from UT than someone from Houston.

Its not a hard and fast bar, and there are variations in the difficulty and insularity of markets. But its a very real thing, it isn't just limited to the private T20s, and its something that should be considered in choosing schools. I really don't see what's so difficult to understand or controversial about this.


This is all basic commonsense though. It doesn't need to be stated. This isn't a law-only related concept though.


Apparently it's not, and it does.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:54 am

romothesavior wrote:I don't see what's even remotely controversial about Grimes post.

Someone from Raleigh will generally have a harder time getting a job in Peoria from UIUC than someone from Springfield. Someone from Dallas will generally have a harder time getting a job in Cincinnati from OSU than someone from Dayton. Someone from Indianapolis will have a harder time getting a job in Orlando from UF than someone from Tampa. Someone from Detroit will have a harder time getting a job in Houston from UT than someone from Houston.

Its not a hard and fast bar, and there are variations in the difficulty and insularity of markets. But its a very real thing, it isn't just limited to the private T20s, and its something that should be considered in choosing schools. I really don't see what's so difficult to understand or controversial about this.

No, I agree with this (all else being equal between candidates, which of course it never is, but you don't know where that's going to fall out before you go). I think that in TLS speak this often translates into statements that you should ONLY go to school somewhere you have ties, or NEVER go somewhere you don't have ties (not saying rad or romo do that, but that's what comes across in the "where should I go" threads), which is different from saying you need to take them into account and a little too absolute for me. But this probably turns too much into the "TLS is too negative!/too positive!" argument, which I don't mean to feed.

(I also feel compelled to note that my previous comment on the south is really more about my inability to fit in than the south being an awful place - the flipside of parochial/ol' boy is close knit community and so on, which I don't mean to knock.)

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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby BearsGrl » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:56 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I don't see what's even remotely controversial about Grimes post.

Someone from Raleigh will generally have a harder time getting a job in Peoria from UIUC than someone from Springfield. Someone from Dallas will generally have a harder time getting a job in Cincinnati from OSU than someone from Dayton. Someone from Indianapolis will have a harder time getting a job in Orlando from UF than someone from Tampa. Someone from Detroit will have a harder time getting a job in Houston from UT than someone from Houston.

Its not a hard and fast bar, and there are variations in the difficulty and insularity of markets. But its a very real thing, it isn't just limited to the private T20s, and its something that should be considered in choosing schools. I really don't see what's so difficult to understand or controversial about this.

No, I agree with this (all else being equal between candidates, which of course it never is, but you don't know where that's going to fall out before you go). I think that in TLS speak this often translates into statements that you should ONLY go to school somewhere you have ties, or NEVER go somewhere you don't have ties (not saying rad or romo do that, but that's what comes across in the "where should I go" threads), which is different from saying you need to take them into account and a little too absolute for me. But this probably turns too much into the "TLS is too negative!/too positive!" argument, which I don't mean to feed.

(I also feel compelled to note that my previous comment on the south is really more about my inability to fit in than the south being an awful place - the flipside of parochial/ol' boy is close knit community and so on, which I don't mean to knock.)


+1 to all of this.

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los blancos
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby los blancos » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:09 am

BearsGrl wrote:But if the person that goes to Duke wants to work in Raleigh, then he should probably join local Raleigh networking clubs and business associations, among a host of other commonsense strategies.



Still a total craps shoot and may not be enough.

rad lulz
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rad lulz » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:14 am

los blancos wrote:
BearsGrl wrote:But if the person that goes to Duke wants to work in Raleigh, then he should probably join local Raleigh networking clubs and business associations, among a host of other commonsense strategies.



Still a total craps shoot and may not be enough.

Also if you want that biglaw jerb you gotta interview for that at the beginning of 1L year giving you not that much time when you consider 1L course loads

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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby BearsGrl » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:17 am

los blancos wrote:
BearsGrl wrote:But if the person that goes to Duke wants to work in Raleigh, then he should probably join local Raleigh networking clubs and business associations, among a host of other commonsense strategies.



Still a total craps shoot and may not be enough.


Sure, as is any interview at any job.

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los blancos
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby los blancos » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:23 am

BearsGrl wrote:
los blancos wrote:
BearsGrl wrote:But if the person that goes to Duke wants to work in Raleigh, then he should probably join local Raleigh networking clubs and business associations, among a host of other commonsense strategies.



Still a total craps shoot and may not be enough.


Sure, as is any interview at any job.



With the important distinction that with most job interviews the employer chooses to interview you, not the other way around. Going to Duke with no NC ties with the intention of staying in NC can be a very dangerous gamble, especially if you're targeting one of like literally 50 big-ish firm SA positions available in the entire state.

Sticking around in NC from Duke is not as challenging as it used to be - the perception is slowly changing, and a lot of c/o 2013 kids are sticking around [though a good number of them were UNC undergrads]. But it can still be very difficult, even for kids with ties.

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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby BearsGrl » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:32 am

los blancos wrote:
BearsGrl wrote:
los blancos wrote:
BearsGrl wrote:But if the person that goes to Duke wants to work in Raleigh, then he should probably join local Raleigh networking clubs and business associations, among a host of other commonsense strategies.



Still a total craps shoot and may not be enough.


Sure, as is any interview at any job.



With the important distinction that with most job interviews the employer chooses to interview you, not the other way around. Going to Duke with no NC ties with the intention of staying in NC can be a very dangerous gamble, especially if you're targeting one of like literally 50 big-ish firm SA positions available in the entire state.

Sticking around in NC from Duke is not as challenging as it used to be - the perception is slowly changing, and a lot of c/o 2013 kids are sticking around [though a good number of them were UNC undergrads]. But it can still be very difficult, even for kids with ties.


This could also be due to people not finding outside opportunities. Sure - I agree with your first paragraph overall, but that was that individual's choice. A lot of jobs will interview multiple candidates and go through rounds.

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romothesavior
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:36 am

Uhh... yeah? Of course it was their choice. That's our point. Maybe people shouldn't make that choice because they're making it harder on themselves. I don't see what you're getting at.

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los blancos
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby los blancos » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:41 am

Yeah, I'm suggesting it isn't the wisest choice - at least not without a backup plan.

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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby BearsGrl » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:51 am

romothesavior wrote:Uhh... yeah? Of course it was their choice. That's our point. Maybe people shouldn't make that choice because they're making it harder on themselves. I don't see what you're getting at.


So then call out that particular poster in this thread? Because there was a poster that said this exact thing.

We also don't know why that person didn't get a job offer from Raleigh. Recruiter could give no ties as reason, but it could just be someone that doesn't know how to interview well.

Everyone will have different experiences but my talk with a newer associate at a top firm in an out of state situation didn't have "ties" issues after I had said that I had interest in staying in the area/state long-term.

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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby ironbmike » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:48 am

Too add some fuel to the thread, which would be tougher for a person with ties in the DC area but no ties in Texas: going to UT and focusing on starting a career in Texas, or going to UT and focusing on starting a career back in the DC area?

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Justin Genious
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Justin Genious » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:14 pm

Lol thanks for the read, my friends. My thoughts on TLS and its CW: Groupthink--although there are many truths that come with it. If your rationale of attending law school comes solely from this forum, you're doing it wrong. There are many posters with insightful and thorough responses and comments; however, the majority of users are parrots with high LSAT scores. I'm not going to be ignorant enough to disregard current/post law students thoughts on legal employment, but I do take into consideration external factors that can psychologically make a poster say the things he/she does (unemployed, arrogance, etc).

Truth is, OP, do some more research regarding your question and learn to filter posts. As stated above, there are many users with informative, relative, and coherent posts that you should consider but you should not stop there.

-0L

BigZuck
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby BigZuck » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:20 pm

Justin Genious wrote:Lol thanks for the read, my friends. My thoughts on TLS and its CW: Groupthink--although there are many truths that come with it. If your rationale of attending law school comes solely from this forum, you're doing it wrong. There are many posters with insightful and thorough responses and comments; however, the majority of users are parrots with high LSAT scores. I'm not going to be ignorant enough to disregard current/post law students thoughts on legal employment, but I do take into consideration external factors that can psychologically make a poster say the things he/she does (unemployed, arrogance, etc).

Truth is, OP, do some more research regarding your question and learn to filter posts. As stated above, there are many users with informative, relative, and coherent posts that you should consider but you should not stop there.

-0L


I did not like this post.

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Justin Genious
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Justin Genious » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:35 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Justin Genious wrote:Lol thanks for the read, my friends. My thoughts on TLS and its CW: Groupthink--although there are many truths that come with it. If your rationale of attending law school comes solely from this forum, you're doing it wrong. There are many posters with insightful and thorough responses and comments; however, the majority of users are parrots with high LSAT scores. I'm not going to be ignorant enough to disregard current/post law students thoughts on legal employment, but I do take into consideration external factors that can psychologically make a poster say the things he/she does (unemployed, arrogance, etc).

Truth is, OP, do some more research regarding your question and learn to filter posts. As stated above, there are many users with informative, relative, and coherent posts that you should consider but you should not stop there.

-0L


I did not like this post.

:'(

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romothesavior
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:06 pm

Is it me or is this year's 0L class particularly arrogant and know-it-all(y)? If I read one more generalized "TLS is too negative and it's a big echo chamber" post, I might lose it. Here's a thought: how about you actually point to some issues where you substantively disagree and engage with the points being made using facts instead of just decrying the culture of TLS? Oh that's right, you're a 0L, so you have no idea what things are like and have to resort to complaining about the site and attacking the motives (lol, unemployed?) of the 2Ls and 3Ls posting here.

My post above + Grimes post on the last page essentially summarizes the TLS convention wisdom on ties. Its not extreme, its not hardline, its not controversial, and it jives with what most TLSers have heard, seen, and experienced. Ties are neither necessary nor sufficient, but they are a significant factor in hiring. OH THE ECHO CHAMBER!




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