Best medium/small markets with no ties

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Balthy
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Balthy » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:40 pm

Say some morally deplorable individual wanted to lie about ties to a smaller market. How difficult would that be? Firms wouldn't ask for details, would they?

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sublime
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby sublime » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:45 pm

..

tino1317
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby tino1317 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:55 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
jastrauss26 wrote:
So in my case, I am pretty much stuck in Michigan you're saying? What about Northern Virginia (where I grew up for 6 years)?


Oh god. Enough.

Please do not listen to all these 23-24 year old kids on TLS who have never lived in, tried to find employment in, or even visited these "mega insular" states. You are not "stuck in Michigan forever," that's just asinine.

A few years ago one or two posters on TLS had a hard time convincing OCI firms in secondary markets that they wanted to live in those secondary markets. They posted on TLS. Then other people who have had experienced similar difficulties agreed with them. They posted on TLS. Now, this nugget of "conventional wisdom" has telephoned into something completely different. It went from "a student at a top law school will have difficulty finding OCI success at firms located in areas where the student does not have ties," to------- "most of the United States is uber-parochial and insular and even if you go to a regional school you will be viewed as an outsider and will not get a job in the local economy if you didn't go to highschool there." The first sentence aligns with common sense, and is true. The latter sentence is completely false.

OP -- 90% of what you read on TLS is repeated information. There is a vetting process for new information on this site, but it is flawed and if information isn't corrected quickly it is soon lost into the echo chamber. In this case, TLS is ass-backward. If you go to the local school near these cities, so long as you are a (mostly) normal american, you will be fine. The graduates from these schools, unlike the top schools, do not have other options. The employers in and around KC know that KU and Mizzou grads can only go so far, and your "why KC" story will make perfect sense to them. After all, you will have just spent 3 years and a ton of money to get a degree that has value in KC and hardly anywhere else. Moreover, students often have very different goals and what school they attend can be telling. Someone who attends GULC or Vandy might well have different ambitions than someone who attends the University of Kansas. Fairly or unfairly, some people expect the private school kid to want to jump around until they are some sort of captain of industry, but the "I want to attend KU so my wife and I can settle in Kansas" student will usually be viewed in a completely different light. I don't know what your story will be, but rest assured you can create a marketable "why X state" elevator speech if you put a little thought into it. The trick is to actually mean it, and you'll be fine.

For what it's worth, I've lived in KC, OKC, Dallas, Austin, and now Denver-- none of these areas are suspect of outsiders or parochial. They are expanding quickly, in constant flux, and full of "outsiders." This is the case for most metro areas in the country. Now, of course, if you want to find work in a small town in Alabama, all bets are off. But you mentioned metro areas, not back-wood villages.

You are not stuck in Michigan or anywhere else. Good luck.


This. I am a 0L and have worked in a midwest legal market for the past 2 years. The people saying that these markets are hard for "outsiders" to break into have no clue what they are talking about. Everything Lord Randolph said is spot on. As long as you are dealing with a metropolitan area, you don't have to worry about being an "outsider". I know of people from TTTT's in other regions that have found jobs in the midwest and east coast. Obviously going to school in the region you want to work in is a bonus. People on TLS are so obsessed with what school you go to and what rank that school is they forget the realities of finding a job. Your people skills and how you conduct yourself in an interview are much more important than how long you have lived in city x. I finally found the voice of reason on TLS that I have been searching for. I'll call you LRM. TLS is a great resource but the majority of information is perpetuated by 0/1L's that have no experience working in any given legal market. People need to realize that there is more to law school and being a lawyer than the t14 and biglaw. So LRM I commend you sir.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Elston Gunn » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:59 pm

tino1317 wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
jastrauss26 wrote:
So in my case, I am pretty much stuck in Michigan you're saying? What about Northern Virginia (where I grew up for 6 years)?


Oh god. Enough.

Please do not listen to all these 23-24 year old kids on TLS who have never lived in, tried to find employment in, or even visited these "mega insular" states. You are not "stuck in Michigan forever," that's just asinine.

A few years ago one or two posters on TLS had a hard time convincing OCI firms in secondary markets that they wanted to live in those secondary markets. They posted on TLS. Then other people who have had experienced similar difficulties agreed with them. They posted on TLS. Now, this nugget of "conventional wisdom" has telephoned into something completely different. It went from "a student at a top law school will have difficulty finding OCI success at firms located in areas where the student does not have ties," to------- "most of the United States is uber-parochial and insular and even if you go to a regional school you will be viewed as an outsider and will not get a job in the local economy if you didn't go to highschool there." The first sentence aligns with common sense, and is true. The latter sentence is completely false.

OP -- 90% of what you read on TLS is repeated information. There is a vetting process for new information on this site, but it is flawed and if information isn't corrected quickly it is soon lost into the echo chamber. In this case, TLS is ass-backward. If you go to the local school near these cities, so long as you are a (mostly) normal american, you will be fine. The graduates from these schools, unlike the top schools, do not have other options. The employers in and around KC know that KU and Mizzou grads can only go so far, and your "why KC" story will make perfect sense to them. After all, you will have just spent 3 years and a ton of money to get a degree that has value in KC and hardly anywhere else. Moreover, students often have very different goals and what school they attend can be telling. Someone who attends GULC or Vandy might well have different ambitions than someone who attends the University of Kansas. Fairly or unfairly, some people expect the private school kid to want to jump around until they are some sort of captain of industry, but the "I want to attend KU so my wife and I can settle in Kansas" student will usually be viewed in a completely different light. I don't know what your story will be, but rest assured you can create a marketable "why X state" elevator speech if you put a little thought into it. The trick is to actually mean it, and you'll be fine.

For what it's worth, I've lived in KC, OKC, Dallas, Austin, and now Denver-- none of these areas are suspect of outsiders or parochial. They are expanding quickly, in constant flux, and full of "outsiders." This is the case for most metro areas in the country. Now, of course, if you want to find work in a small town in Alabama, all bets are off. But you mentioned metro areas, not back-wood villages.

You are not stuck in Michigan or anywhere else. Good luck.


This. I am a 0L and have worked in a midwest legal market for the past 2 years. The people saying that these markets are hard for "outsiders" to break into have no clue what they are talking about. Everything Lord Randolph said is spot on. As long as you are dealing with a metropolitan area, you don't have to worry about being an "outsider". I know of people from TTTT's in other regions that have found jobs in the midwest and east coast. Obviously going to school in the region you want to work in is a bonus. People on TLS are so obsessed with what school you go to and what rank that school is they forget the realities of finding a job. Your people skills and how you conduct yourself in an interview are much more important than how long you have lived in city x. I finally found the voice of reason on TLS that I have been searching for. I'll call you LRM. TLS is a great resource but the majority of information is perpetuated by 0/1L's that have no experience working in any given legal market. People need to realize that there is more to law school and being a lawyer than the t14 and biglaw. So LRM I commend you sir.


I don't know, dude. Most of the real advice actually comes from 2/3Ls who (unlike you) have actually gone through firm hiring.

rad lulz
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rad lulz » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:06 pm

lol dood no one gives a shit if their paralegals have ties

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:10 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:
tino1317 wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
jastrauss26 wrote:
So in my case, I am pretty much stuck in Michigan you're saying? What about Northern Virginia (where I grew up for 6 years)?


Oh god. Enough.

Please do not listen to all these 23-24 year old kids on TLS who have never lived in, tried to find employment in, or even visited these "mega insular" states. You are not "stuck in Michigan forever," that's just asinine.

A few years ago one or two posters on TLS had a hard time convincing OCI firms in secondary markets that they wanted to live in those secondary markets. They posted on TLS. Then other people who have had experienced similar difficulties agreed with them. They posted on TLS. Now, this nugget of "conventional wisdom" has telephoned into something completely different. It went from "a student at a top law school will have difficulty finding OCI success at firms located in areas where the student does not have ties," to------- "most of the United States is uber-parochial and insular and even if you go to a regional school you will be viewed as an outsider and will not get a job in the local economy if you didn't go to highschool there." The first sentence aligns with common sense, and is true. The latter sentence is completely false.

OP -- 90% of what you read on TLS is repeated information. There is a vetting process for new information on this site, but it is flawed and if information isn't corrected quickly it is soon lost into the echo chamber. In this case, TLS is ass-backward. If you go to the local school near these cities, so long as you are a (mostly) normal american, you will be fine. The graduates from these schools, unlike the top schools, do not have other options. The employers in and around KC know that KU and Mizzou grads can only go so far, and your "why KC" story will make perfect sense to them. After all, you will have just spent 3 years and a ton of money to get a degree that has value in KC and hardly anywhere else. Moreover, students often have very different goals and what school they attend can be telling. Someone who attends GULC or Vandy might well have different ambitions than someone who attends the University of Kansas. Fairly or unfairly, some people expect the private school kid to want to jump around until they are some sort of captain of industry, but the "I want to attend KU so my wife and I can settle in Kansas" student will usually be viewed in a completely different light. I don't know what your story will be, but rest assured you can create a marketable "why X state" elevator speech if you put a little thought into it. The trick is to actually mean it, and you'll be fine.

For what it's worth, I've lived in KC, OKC, Dallas, Austin, and now Denver-- none of these areas are suspect of outsiders or parochial. They are expanding quickly, in constant flux, and full of "outsiders." This is the case for most metro areas in the country. Now, of course, if you want to find work in a small town in Alabama, all bets are off. But you mentioned metro areas, not back-wood villages.

You are not stuck in Michigan or anywhere else. Good luck.


This. I am a 0L and have worked in a midwest legal market for the past 2 years. The people saying that these markets are hard for "outsiders" to break into have no clue what they are talking about. Everything Lord Randolph said is spot on. As long as you are dealing with a metropolitan area, you don't have to worry about being an "outsider". I know of people from TTTT's in other regions that have found jobs in the midwest and east coast. Obviously going to school in the region you want to work in is a bonus. People on TLS are so obsessed with what school you go to and what rank that school is they forget the realities of finding a job. Your people skills and how you conduct yourself in an interview are much more important than how long you have lived in city x. I finally found the voice of reason on TLS that I have been searching for. I'll call you LRM. TLS is a great resource but the majority of information is perpetuated by 0/1L's that have no experience working in any given legal market. People need to realize that there is more to law school and being a lawyer than the t14 and biglaw. So LRM I commend you sir.


I don't know, dude. Most of the real advice actually comes from 2/3Ls who (unlike you) have actually gone through firm hiring.


Most of the comments on TLS are from 0Ls. Just look around: in nearly every thread you have 0Ls declaring in absolute terms some "truth" about legal hiring or law school. They are (obviously) repeating what they've read elsewhere.

FWIW, I'm a 2L. Unless you get your job through OCI, there is no legal hiring to "go through" when you are in law school. OCI hiring accounts for around 2% of all legal hiring. As a 2L, I have gotten paid internship offers that, at least at my school, traditionally lead to post-graduation employment. These offers have been in a state where I attend the regional school but have zero other ties. This is very common at my school. I also know out-of-state 3Ls with offers to clerk on the State Supreme Ct., work at good private firms, DA/PD, city attorney, you name it. This isn't difficult to do at my school because such a large group of the students moved here to attend school for the purpose of working here. Again, very common.
Last edited by Lord Randolph McDuff on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby BigZuck » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:20 pm

Even though they often come across as prickly little caricatures and that probably hurts their credibility with some people I would trust what Romo and rad are saying here. They are both smart guys, they are here to help, and they have at least been through the process. Can't neccessarily say the same for the 1Ls and paralegals who are debating them.

OP- I would either be content with working as a lawyer in Michigan (and going to a school that will get you a job there) or I would move to the market you want to end up in and work for a year or two before going to school. The younger you are I'm sure the less you would want to do that because so many K-JDs seem to want MOAR SCOOL NOWZZZ but it really would be a wise thing to do if you want to mitigate the risk of being screwed in this whole venture. I don't see any other options for you.

*Disclaimer- I am a prickly little caricature of a know-everything 0L.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Elston Gunn » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:09 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:redacted


Well first of all, while it's certainly true that most of the posts in the on topics are by 0Ls, the actual advice originates (and has been almost entirely in this thread) from 2/3Ls. I do think that the other position and yours are perfectly compatible, too. They go to slightly higher ranked schools, where students probably don't have the reputation for wanting to stay in the area as much, and were mostly after firm jobs. You go to a more regional school and at least ended up with non-firm options. That (especially the difference in school rank) probably accounts for 95% of the disconnect in your perspectives. It's also worth reiterating that the trade off for the stronger "tie" of a regional school is shittier job prospects.

A couple other things: 1) No one has ever said that mediocre ties couldn't be overcome, especially with a genuine, articulable reason for wanting to be there. They've just said it makes life harder. 2) You do have ties to Texas. They're not ideal, but they're ties. You probably wouldn't have gotten a job in Eugene, OR or whatever other random place you couldn't articulate a reason to be.

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Greenandgold
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Greenandgold » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:18 pm

holdencaulfield wrote:Answering OP's original question about NON-MAJOR markets. At least in Texas, you must have ties. My classmates (who are now practicing attorneys at firms in these markets) have told me firsthand that you have no shot without ties. Literally, they will trash your top 5% resume because they desperately want to avoid 2nd year associates jumping ship as soon as they get a better gig in a big city.


In my market (DFW) and other major markets, ties are still important, but not necessary.



This is straight up not true. I know of several 1L's with firm jobs this summer in Texas who've never even lived there. Texas isn't as skeptical of outsiders as people like to think it is. You've just gotta have a legitimate reason for wanting to be there.


ETA: I just realized you're saying it doesn't matter as much for the big markets in Texas. That's what I was getting at. People on TLS make it seem like if you haven't lived in a place or at least have family from there you've got no shot. But in the larger markets you've just gonna be able to sell your reasons for living there long term.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:05 am

tino1317 wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
jastrauss26 wrote:
So in my case, I am pretty much stuck in Michigan you're saying? What about Northern Virginia (where I grew up for 6 years)?


Oh god. Enough.

Please do not listen to all these 23-24 year old kids on TLS who have never lived in, tried to find employment in, or even visited these "mega insular" states. You are not "stuck in Michigan forever," that's just asinine.

A few years ago one or two posters on TLS had a hard time convincing OCI firms in secondary markets that they wanted to live in those secondary markets. They posted on TLS. Then other people who have had experienced similar difficulties agreed with them. They posted on TLS. Now, this nugget of "conventional wisdom" has telephoned into something completely different. It went from "a student at a top law school will have difficulty finding OCI success at firms located in areas where the student does not have ties," to------- "most of the United States is uber-parochial and insular and even if you go to a regional school you will be viewed as an outsider and will not get a job in the local economy if you didn't go to highschool there." The first sentence aligns with common sense, and is true. The latter sentence is completely false.

OP -- 90% of what you read on TLS is repeated information. There is a vetting process for new information on this site, but it is flawed and if information isn't corrected quickly it is soon lost into the echo chamber. In this case, TLS is ass-backward. If you go to the local school near these cities, so long as you are a (mostly) normal american, you will be fine. The graduates from these schools, unlike the top schools, do not have other options. The employers in and around KC know that KU and Mizzou grads can only go so far, and your "why KC" story will make perfect sense to them. After all, you will have just spent 3 years and a ton of money to get a degree that has value in KC and hardly anywhere else. Moreover, students often have very different goals and what school they attend can be telling. Someone who attends GULC or Vandy might well have different ambitions than someone who attends the University of Kansas. Fairly or unfairly, some people expect the private school kid to want to jump around until they are some sort of captain of industry, but the "I want to attend KU so my wife and I can settle in Kansas" student will usually be viewed in a completely different light. I don't know what your story will be, but rest assured you can create a marketable "why X state" elevator speech if you put a little thought into it. The trick is to actually mean it, and you'll be fine.

For what it's worth, I've lived in KC, OKC, Dallas, Austin, and now Denver-- none of these areas are suspect of outsiders or parochial. They are expanding quickly, in constant flux, and full of "outsiders." This is the case for most metro areas in the country. Now, of course, if you want to find work in a small town in Alabama, all bets are off. But you mentioned metro areas, not back-wood villages.

You are not stuck in Michigan or anywhere else. Good luck.


This. I am a 0L and have worked in a midwest legal market for the past 2 years. The people saying that these markets are hard for "outsiders" to break into have no clue what they are talking about. Everything Lord Randolph said is spot on. As long as you are dealing with a metropolitan area, you don't have to worry about being an "outsider". I know of people from TTTT's in other regions that have found jobs in the midwest and east coast. Obviously going to school in the region you want to work in is a bonus. People on TLS are so obsessed with what school you go to and what rank that school is they forget the realities of finding a job. Your people skills and how you conduct yourself in an interview are much more important than how long you have lived in city x. I finally found the voice of reason on TLS that I have been searching for. I'll call you LRM. TLS is a great resource but the majority of information is perpetuated by 0/1L's that have no experience working in any given legal market. People need to realize that there is more to law school and being a lawyer than the t14 and biglaw. So LRM I commend you sir.


Completely anecdotally, I have a solid resume and good grades at a T14 and I still got grilled about ties at every single interview I attended in the secondary market where I was born and raised. All but one of my interviews was obtained via local ties, despite blanketing every alum in the area, hitting up every firm and government office of any significance, and networking with basically anyone who would listen. Ties matter, especially if your grades are subpar.

Statistically, most hyper-regional schools place 50-60% into any lawyer jobs as it is. Let's infer that a sizable portion of these jobs are going to people who just want to work for Dad / Uncle / whatever at their local firm. Why would you want to disadvantage yourself by coming into the market as an outsider? And what are you supposed to say when your interviewer asks why you want to live in X small town? "I already sunk $200k into it and now I'm stuck here?"

Ties probably don't matter as much if your grades are good, but if they're not, the fact that you are an outsider is just another knock against you. Why shoot yourself in the foot when you're already fighting an uphill battle?

Edit: See also viewtopic.php?f=1&t=206222

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Samara
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Samara » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:11 am

Greenandgold wrote:
holdencaulfield wrote:Answering OP's original question about NON-MAJOR markets. At least in Texas, you must have ties. My classmates (who are now practicing attorneys at firms in these markets) have told me firsthand that you have no shot without ties. Literally, they will trash your top 5% resume because they desperately want to avoid 2nd year associates jumping ship as soon as they get a better gig in a big city.


In my market (DFW) and other major markets, ties are still important, but not necessary.



This is straight up not true. I know of several 1L's with firm jobs this summer in Texas who've never even lived there. Texas isn't as skeptical of outsiders as people like to think it is. You've just gotta have a legitimate reason for wanting to be there.


ETA: I just realized you're saying it doesn't matter as much for the big markets in Texas. That's what I was getting at. People on TLS make it seem like if you haven't lived in a place or at least have family from there you've got no shot. But in the larger markets you've just gonna be able to sell your reasons for living there long term.

No one is saying you have no shot at a market without ties. HTH

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:44 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:
Well first of all, while it's certainly true that most of the posts in the on topics are by 0Ls, the actual advice originates (and has been almost entirely in this thread) from 2/3Ls. I do think that the other position and yours are perfectly compatible, too. They go to slightly higher ranked schools, where students probably don't have the reputation for wanting to stay in the area as much, and were mostly after firm jobs. You go to a more regional school and at least ended up with non-firm options. That (especially the difference in school rank) probably accounts for 95% of the disconnect in your perspectives. It's also worth reiterating that the trade off for the stronger "tie" of a regional school is shittier job prospects.


I 100% agree with all of this. And that is kinda the point. You say that most of the posts here are from 0Ls but the actual advice originates from 2/3Ls. I agree; that is why I said TLS mostly consists of repeated information. You say that my position and rad's/romo's are compatible, stating that the higher ranked school will have students with more options and less of a reputation for staying in the area. I agree. But the problem is the TLS mega-posters "poast" in forums for the University of Maine and tell everybody that unless they have ties to Maine they will never get "jerbs." This is based on the misunderstanding that both you and I have described. I also completely agree that it is worth reiterating that the trade off for the stronger "tie" of a regional school is shittier job prospects. Well said.

I'm sure the mega-posters on TLS are here because they enjoy it AND want to help other law students. I wouldn't have a problem if they would just troll into U of Maine forums and say don't go there are no jobs. But instead they dilute the core argument with a misunderstanding about "ties." That is actually counter-productive, and that is why I posted in this thread.

EDIT-- now all I need is for another T14 student to miss the point and post something about how they get grilled with "ties" questions in "secondary" markets. Lol.

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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:54 pm

Whatever the status of this argument about "ties," I think it's indisputably a bad idea to go to a regional law school unless you're certain you'd like to practice in that region. The OP seems to have moved around a lot and disliked most of the places s/he's lived, yet is considering going to a regional law school blind to whether s/he likes living there. That seems like a bad idea.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:05 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Whatever the status of this argument about "ties," I think it's indisputably a bad idea to go to a regional law school unless you're certain you'd like to practice in that region. The OP seems to have moved around a lot and disliked most of the places s/he's lived, yet is considering going to a regional law school blind to whether s/he likes living there. That seems like a bad idea.


+1

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:08 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rad lulz wrote:OP PM this dude about getting a job in a secondary market where you go to school with no preexisting ties.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=78880

McDuff is a 1L and has no idea what he's talking about


2L at a regional school where over 50% of students are out of state. Lots of people successfully go against your "conventional wisdom" here every year. Have you even visited Colorado? Even one ski trip?

OP rad is a 3L at Vandy, he has had about 3 TLS accounts that I know of, posts about 25 times a day, and, at least on this topic, has no idea what he is talking about.


edit-- also, looks like that dood you linked went to CCN, or at least he claimed he did. Those schools aren't regional rad. Neither is Vandy... It is like you a purposely missing the point.



lol. bolded is TCR

rad lulz
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rad lulz » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:10 pm

Whoops pm patrickd139. Always get those 2 confused.

OP isn't even here anymore doe so who cares

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romothesavior
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby romothesavior » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:32 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rad lulz wrote:OP PM this dude about getting a job in a secondary market where you go to school with no preexisting ties.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=78880

McDuff is a 1L and has no idea what he's talking about


2L at a regional school where over 50% of students are out of state. Lots of people successfully go against your "conventional wisdom" here every year. Have you even visited Colorado? Even one ski trip?

OP rad is a 3L at Vandy, he has had about 3 TLS accounts that I know of, posts about 25 times a day, and, at least on this topic, has no idea what he is talking about.


edit-- also, looks like that dood you linked went to CCN, or at least he claimed he did. Those schools aren't regional rad. Neither is Vandy... It is like you a purposely missing the point.



lol. bolded is TCR

Tell us more 0L.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:48 pm

romothesavior wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rad lulz wrote:OP PM this dude about getting a job in a secondary market where you go to school with no preexisting ties.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=78880

McDuff is a 1L and has no idea what he's talking about


2L at a regional school where over 50% of students are out of state. Lots of people successfully go against your "conventional wisdom" here every year. Have you even visited Colorado? Even one ski trip?

OP rad is a 3L at Vandy, he has had about 3 TLS accounts that I know of, posts about 25 times a day, and, at least on this topic, has no idea what he is talking about.


edit-- also, looks like that dood you linked went to CCN, or at least he claimed he did. Those schools aren't regional rad. Neither is Vandy... It is like you a purposely missing the point.



lol. bolded is TCR

Tell us more 0L.


I don't have the slightest first-hand insight into legal employment but I read TLS like a mad man. I've read and digested every post even remotely involving legal employment and from this I conclude people like radlulz are misinforming. They overstate things. Should you pay sticker at American? Only under extremely, extremely rare circumstances. UVA sticker? Probably not so bad if you know what you are getting into, have a good head on your shoulders, and are flexible.

TLS is wise, it just goes too far. People who come here will know not to pay sticker at Catholic, no need to speak as if everyone is looking at T2 sticker.

rad lulz
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rad lulz » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:58 pm

Tell me how legal employment works, 0L

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:04 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
tino1317 wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
jastrauss26 wrote:
So in my case, I am pretty much stuck in Michigan you're saying? What about Northern Virginia (where I grew up for 6 years)?


Oh god. Enough.

Please do not listen to all these 23-24 year old kids on TLS who have never lived in, tried to find employment in, or even visited these "mega insular" states. You are not "stuck in Michigan forever," that's just asinine.

A few years ago one or two posters on TLS had a hard time convincing OCI firms in secondary markets that they wanted to live in those secondary markets. They posted on TLS. Then other people who have had experienced similar difficulties agreed with them. They posted on TLS. Now, this nugget of "conventional wisdom" has telephoned into something completely different. It went from "a student at a top law school will have difficulty finding OCI success at firms located in areas where the student does not have ties," to------- "most of the United States is uber-parochial and insular and even if you go to a regional school you will be viewed as an outsider and will not get a job in the local economy if you didn't go to highschool there." The first sentence aligns with common sense, and is true. The latter sentence is completely false.

OP -- 90% of what you read on TLS is repeated information. There is a vetting process for new information on this site, but it is flawed and if information isn't corrected quickly it is soon lost into the echo chamber. In this case, TLS is ass-backward. If you go to the local school near these cities, so long as you are a (mostly) normal american, you will be fine. The graduates from these schools, unlike the top schools, do not have other options. The employers in and around KC know that KU and Mizzou grads can only go so far, and your "why KC" story will make perfect sense to them. After all, you will have just spent 3 years and a ton of money to get a degree that has value in KC and hardly anywhere else. Moreover, students often have very different goals and what school they attend can be telling. Someone who attends GULC or Vandy might well have different ambitions than someone who attends the University of Kansas. Fairly or unfairly, some people expect the private school kid to want to jump around until they are some sort of captain of industry, but the "I want to attend KU so my wife and I can settle in Kansas" student will usually be viewed in a completely different light. I don't know what your story will be, but rest assured you can create a marketable "why X state" elevator speech if you put a little thought into it. The trick is to actually mean it, and you'll be fine.

For what it's worth, I've lived in KC, OKC, Dallas, Austin, and now Denver-- none of these areas are suspect of outsiders or parochial. They are expanding quickly, in constant flux, and full of "outsiders." This is the case for most metro areas in the country. Now, of course, if you want to find work in a small town in Alabama, all bets are off. But you mentioned metro areas, not back-wood villages.

You are not stuck in Michigan or anywhere else. Good luck.


This. I am a 0L and have worked in a midwest legal market for the past 2 years. The people saying that these markets are hard for "outsiders" to break into have no clue what they are talking about. Everything Lord Randolph said is spot on. As long as you are dealing with a metropolitan area, you don't have to worry about being an "outsider". I know of people from TTTT's in other regions that have found jobs in the midwest and east coast. Obviously going to school in the region you want to work in is a bonus. People on TLS are so obsessed with what school you go to and what rank that school is they forget the realities of finding a job. Your people skills and how you conduct yourself in an interview are much more important than how long you have lived in city x. I finally found the voice of reason on TLS that I have been searching for. I'll call you LRM. TLS is a great resource but the majority of information is perpetuated by 0/1L's that have no experience working in any given legal market. People need to realize that there is more to law school and being a lawyer than the t14 and biglaw. So LRM I commend you sir.


Completely anecdotally, I have a solid resume and good grades at a T14 and I still got grilled about ties at every single interview I attended in the secondary market where I was born and raised. All but one of my interviews was obtained via local ties, despite blanketing every alum in the area, hitting up every firm and government office of any significance, and networking with basically anyone who would listen. Ties matter, especially if your grades are subpar.

Statistically, most hyper-regional schools place 50-60% into any lawyer jobs as it is. Let's infer that a sizable portion of these jobs are going to people who just want to work for Dad / Uncle / whatever at their local firm. Why would you want to disadvantage yourself by coming into the market as an outsider? And what are you supposed to say when your interviewer asks why you want to live in X small town? "I already sunk $200k into it and now I'm stuck here?"

Ties probably don't matter as much if your grades are good, but if they're not, the fact that you are an outsider is just another knock against you. Why shoot yourself in the foot when you're already fighting an uphill battle?

Edit: See also viewtopic.php?f=1&t=206222


Why aren't you listening, "brah"?

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bk1
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby bk1 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:16 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:I don't have the slightest first-hand insight into legal employment but I read TLS like a mad man. I've read and digested every post even remotely involving legal employment and from this I conclude people like radlulz are misinforming. They overstate things. Should you pay sticker at American? Only under extremely, extremely rare circumstances. UVA sticker? Probably not so bad if you know what you are getting into, have a good head on your shoulders, and are flexible.

TLS is wise, it just goes too far. People who come here will know not to pay sticker at Catholic, no need to speak as if everyone is looking at T2 sticker.

Look at this jokester.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:20 pm

You guys can bash me and all those like me but I'm going to listen most to those TLS users who've posted 80 times in 4 years and have no skin in the game more than I'm going to listen to a user who posts 25 times a day, has two alts, and brags about how much he pisses people off over on TLS's 'social networking' section. The frequency with which you post on these threads that have no value to you combined with the manner in which you do it makes it so hard to value anything you say, man; I'm sorry.

rad lulz
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rad lulz » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:56 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:You guys can bash me and all those like me but I'm going to listen most to those TLS users who've posted 80 times in 4 years and have no skin in the game more than I'm going to listen to a user who posts 25 times a day, has two alts, and brags about how much he pisses people off over on TLS's 'social networking' section. The frequency with which you post on these threads that have no value to you combined with the manner in which you do it makes it so hard to value anything you say, man; I'm sorry.

Cool

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romothesavior
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby romothesavior » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:17 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:I don't have the slightest first-hand insight into legal employment but I read TLS like a mad man. I've read and digested every post even remotely involving legal employment and from this I conclude people like radlulz are misinforming. They overstate things. Should you pay sticker at American? Only under extremely, extremely rare circumstances. UVA sticker? Probably not so bad if you know what you are getting into, have a good head on your shoulders, and are flexible.

TLS is wise, it just goes too far. People who come here will know not to pay sticker at Catholic, no need to speak as if everyone is looking at T2 sticker.

I actually think that yes, in some instances, TLS has gone a little too far towards the pessimism and the "don't go, period" mentality. For example, I still think most strong regional schools are worth in the 100k range. I'm also sick of some of the hard and fast rules ("HYS, or T14 for free or don't go," etc.)

That said, it's pretty clear that you have no idea what the message here really is. People don't say "don't pay sticker for UVA" because they think its a shitty school. They say it because they now realize just how much money 250k-300k is. Sticker now is even worse than it was 5-10 years ago, and its not even really because of the economy. It's largely because: 1) tuition continues to go up, 2) interest rates on student loans have skyrocketed, and 3) no more subsidized loans. I am pretty sure I'd only pay sticker for HYS, and it's not because I'm too pessimistic or risk averse; it's because even if you "win," you're still under a mountain of debt. If you land biglaw, you will almost certainly be out after a few years, or worse (Lathamed), meaning you've only begun to make even a dent in that debtload. Then what? You've still probably got 200k or so to go... and you were one of the lucky ones! Without biglaw, you could pay 400k+ for that degree.

Also, knowing what you're getting into and having a good head on your shoulders doesn't make a risky 250k+ investment any less risky. This isn't just about awareness, it's about getting people to actually change their behavior.

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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:17 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:You guys can bash me and all those like me but I'm going to listen most to those TLS users who've posted 80 times in 4 years and have no skin in the game more than I'm going to listen to a user who posts 25 times a day, has two alts, and brags about how much he pisses people off over on TLS's 'social networking' section. The frequency with which you post on these threads that have no value to you combined with the manner in which you do it makes it so hard to value anything you say, man; I'm sorry.

Nobody cares who you listen to.




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