Best medium/small markets with no ties Forum

Post by **romothesavior** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:52 am

Saying things like "Duke is always a rational choice" outs you as naive and is probably why people come at your posts. You seem like you don't even get the counterargument. Its not "Don't go to Duke at sticker because its too risky," though that's part of it, its "Don't go to Duke at sticker because its too expensive and debt is simply too high."

Jim goes to Duke at sticker, spending about 70,000 a year. Thanks to accumulation of interest while Jim is in school, he's around 235k in debt. He's also got a modest amount of undergraduate debt, getting him to 250k pretty easily.

Jim lands biglaw. He makes 120k per year, a good salary even in comparison to most of his Duke peers. If he puts $2,000 a month towards his loans, a hefty sum considering his post tax takehome is probably around 80k, his debtload will barely go down at all. Thanks to current student loan interest rates, it could conceivably take him years to get his debtload under 200k. Chances are decent that Jim is out of biglaw after a few years, and he'll probably still have 150-200k+ in debt.

Keep in mind Jim is one of the lucky ones. What about those who never get biglaw? What about those who are Lathamed?

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:55 am

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:
You ignore me by not speaking to anything I say, you think I ignore you because I dont agree with you.

Theres a difference

Just to clarify:

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote: I don't have the slightest first-hand insight into legal employment but I read TLS like a mad man. I've read and digested every post even remotely involving legal employment and from this I conclude people like radlulz are misinforming. They overstate things. Should you pay sticker at American? Only under extremely, extremely rare circumstances. UVA sticker? Probably not so bad if you know what you are getting into, have a good head on your shoulders, and are flexible.

Tell us more, 0L

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:58 am

romothesavior wrote:Jim goes to Duke at sticker, spending about 70,000 a year. Thanks to accumulation of interest while Jim is in school, he's around 235k in debt. He's also got a modest amount of undergraduate debt, getting him to 250k pretty easily.

Sticker at Duke is $278,000 according to the GULC calculator

WhatOurBodiesAreFor · Post by **WhatOurBodiesAreFor** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:13 am

rad lulz wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:
You ignore me by not speaking to anything I say, you think I ignore you because I dont agree with you.

Theres a difference
Just to clarify:

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote: I don't have the slightest first-hand insight into legal employment but I read TLS like a mad man. I've read and digested every post even remotely involving legal employment and from this I conclude people like radlulz are misinforming. They overstate things. Should you pay sticker at American? Only under extremely, extremely rare circumstances. UVA sticker? Probably not so bad if you know what you are getting into, have a good head on your shoulders, and are flexible.
Tell us more, 0L

Yeap good one man. Got me

And Romo: Seriously? Duke is always a rational choice does not equal what I actually said, Duke is at least close to a rational choice. Which, to make this simpler for you, Duke is close to a rational argument because Biglaw or a sick federal clerkship may justify it, but not always. Insert can be or near or sometimes for close if you wish.

Can tou guys seriously not do better than this? Are you laughing about it now in "Social Networking"?

Post by **romothesavior** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:17 am

Bk and I both just wrote out a response to you that you completely ignored. And threw in a nice ad hom about the Lounge for effect. Thanks for proving our point.

you'rethemannowdawg · Post by **you'rethemannowdawg** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:19 am

I would have more sympathy for the "0Ls fighting back" movement if I saw any verifiable claims from a 0L that convinced me not to trust the general megaposter cw. As a 0L myself, I come onto this site to get insight from people who know what they are talking about. The opinions of a person who has not been to law school or participated in the legal hiring process aren't useful to me. The data and arguments presented by the group generally seen as negative are much more logically sound than any of the counterarguments.

But, I will do whatever I want with that information. Obviously everyone has to make their own decision about where to attend law school, if at all. Some of the megaposters can seem like jackasses at times, but I don't need any anonymous internet forum poster to validate my choices.

A lot of the disagreement seems to stem from 0Ls who are mad that other posters are telling them they are making a bad decision. I would love it if I saw a well-reasoned argument and some good data that could prove to me that the legal market doesn't suck, but having people with firsthand experience withhold their opinions to avoid being "too negative" would hurt me more than help me.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor · Post by **WhatOurBodiesAreFor** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:23 am

Two wrongs don't make a right!

Regarding the debt thing, your point is heeded and I completely agree! (I really thought my agreement with you has been implicitly understood. I know there is a SUBSTANTIAL risk I don't end up financially cozy after Mich sticker. I agree!)

I choose to mention other factors because I see your point regarding the debt. I am still set on going because of the factors I mentioned previously Not special snowflake, just ok with the gamble, and excited for mich and the opportunites ill have there. just because these factors are more important in my decision making then they obviously are to you, im not ignorning you or being fallacious.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor · Post by **WhatOurBodiesAreFor** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:26 am

you'rethemannowdawg wrote:I would have more sympathy for the "0Ls fighting back" movement if I saw any verifiable claims from a 0L that convinced me not to trust the general megaposter cw. As a 0L myself, I come onto this site to get insight from people who know what they are talking about. The opinions of a person who has not been to law school or participated in the legal hiring process aren't useful to me. The data and arguments presented by the group generally seen as negative are much more logically sound than any of the counterarguments.

But, I will do whatever I want with that information. Obviously everyone has to make their own decision about where to attend law school, if at all. Some of the megaposters can seem like jackasses at times, but I don't need any anonymous internet forum poster to validate my choices.

A lot of the disagreement seems to stem from 0Ls who are mad that other posters are telling them they are making a bad decision. I would love it if I saw a well-reasoned argument and some good data that could prove to me that the legal market doesn't suck, but having people with firsthand experience withhold their opinions to avoid being "too negative" would hurt me more than help me.

Oh hi rad!!!

(+1 to that last point though. for real. betterto have you guys here than not)

Post by **romothesavior** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:27 am

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Dude! I was using the Duke/John Marshall thing to show that you guys are more douchy to Duke sticker dudes than JM sticker dudes.

In four years here I've never seen this or even heard this criticism. This is completely novel to me. I'm calling B.S. unless you can substantiate it somehow.

Also, drop the persecution complex. It's the fricken internet.

Ruxin1 · Post by **Ruxin1** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:27 am

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Two wrongs don't make a right!

Regarding the debt thing, your point is heeded and I completely agree! (I really thought my agreement with you has been implicitly understood. I know there is a SUBSTANTIAL risk I don't end up financially cozy after Mich sticker. I agree!)

I choose to mention other factors because I see your point regarding the debt. I am still set on going because of the factors I mentioned previously Not special snowflake, just ok with the gamble, and excited for mich and the opportunites ill have there. just because these factors are more important in my decision making then they obviously are to you, im not ignorning you or being fallacious.

Since you continue to act like a child, do this exercise -- go line up ten crayons in a row, now throw four or five in the trash.

you'rethemannowdawg · Post by **you'rethemannowdawg** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:28 am

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:
you'rethemannowdawg wrote:I would have more sympathy for the "0Ls fighting back" movement if I saw any verifiable claims from a 0L that convinced me not to trust the general megaposter cw. As a 0L myself, I come onto this site to get insight from people who know what they are talking about. The opinions of a person who has not been to law school or participated in the legal hiring process aren't useful to me. The data and arguments presented by the group generally seen as negative are much more logically sound than any of the counterarguments.

But, I will do whatever I want with that information. Obviously everyone has to make their own decision about where to attend law school, if at all. Some of the megaposters can seem like jackasses at times, but I don't need any anonymous internet forum poster to validate my choices.

A lot of the disagreement seems to stem from 0Ls who are mad that other posters are telling them they are making a bad decision. I would love it if I saw a well-reasoned argument and some good data that could prove to me that the legal market doesn't suck, but having people with firsthand experience withhold their opinions to avoid being "too negative" would hurt me more than help me.
Oh hi rad!!!

(+1 to that last point though. for real. betterto have you guys here than not)

I'm not rad lulz.

bk1 · Post by **bk1** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:30 am

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Man, I said it's AT LEAST CLOSE to a rational choice. It's one that some will agree with and some won't. If you won't me to put it like that, OK. I just wanted to say (and I really think I did well the first time) that theres debate over Duke sticker and not really Cooley sticker. Ugh

Also BK, in regards to this debt thing. A smart big law grad (35%+ at T14) will have paid significantly more than minimum payments during his biglaw stint. You said earlier that after two years of Biglaw that a dude would still be 200K in chance. Not a smart one. This is a sacrifice you have to make if you pay sticker and get biglaw.

The thing is it's not that close. It might be possible to argue that it's rational, but most of the evidence really weighs against that. This isn't really a 50/50 argument where each side has good points, it's mostly that a T14 at sticker really isn't all that rational for the most part.

lol, like I ever said someone would be making the minimum payments. I said someone 3 years in would likely be around 150k. If you graduate with 250k debt, get a 160k starting job in NYC, take home about 100k after taxes, pay 50k for all expenses, and you're left with 50k or so to pay back to your loans. Factoring in interest, someone in their third year of biglaw really would be around 150k if they were dumping 50k+/year into their loans.

Post by **romothesavior** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:36 am

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Regarding the debt thing, your point is heeded and I completely agree! (I really thought my agreement with you has been implicitly understood. I know there is a SUBSTANTIAL risk I don't end up financially cozy after Mich sticker. I agree!)

Alright, fair enough. I'm still skeptical that you really comprehend the magnitude of the cost (you'll quite possibly spend over $400,000 once its all said and done), or the difficulty in paying that back on even a six-figure salary, but it's your life. Good luck. I hope you're not one of the poor souls in the bottom half of UM who strike out and have to service that mountain of debt on a smaller salary.

<<< Someone who ED'd Michigan and would have happily gone at sticker, and is thanking his lucky stars he was WL---> rejected.

Post by **romothesavior** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:43 am

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Oh hi rad!!!

This is my last time interacting with you until you cut the persecution complex and stop acting like a child, but if you really want to know why people dismiss you, posts like these are why. It's just uncalled for. If you want to talk about this stuff, rad and bk and I and sunyp and countless other actual law students and lawyers can explain to you why we think you're wrong. But if you just want to bitch and moan about the negativity on TLS and how we're all just a bunch of arrogant jerks, then go pound sand.

you'retheman, glad you're enjoying the forums.

FranklinDelanoBluth · Post by **FranklinDelanoBluth** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:53 am

JFC... as someone for whom the law school gamble/scam really worked out about as well as it could have... SHUT THE FUCK UP IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

Take for example this wonderful gem:

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:A smart big law grad (35%+ at T14)

Only a 0L wouldn't know that...
Smart -> 35%
35% -> BigLaw

are patently false assumptions.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor · Post by **WhatOurBodiesAreFor** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:55 am

Hard to say much now that the big guns are here. Discussion stifled. It's a shame, eh? Regarding an issue where there IS a grey area, TLS doesn't allow it.

Yes my previous post was out of line. But I've never had someone take up for me when equally douchey things are directed at me.

I know this TLS bashing thing is getting old, I'm going to stop now. We have our disagreements and I think you guys are detrimental in some ways to the law school debate, but that's just me and like the ohter poster said, its better to have you here than to hav you not

WhatOurBodiesAreFor · Post by **WhatOurBodiesAreFor** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:58 am

FranklinDelanoBluth wrote:JFC... as someone for whom the law school gamble/scam really worked out about as well as it could have... SHUT THE FUCK UP IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

Take for example this wonderful gem:

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:A smart big law grad (35%+ at T14)

Only a 0L wouldn't know that...
Smart -> 35%
35% -> BigLaw

are patently false assumptions.

I wasn't clear big guy. i just meant to say that at least 35% of each t14's grads land biglaw

chill. wasnt saying anything about being smart guaranteeing biglaw. why do you so quickly assume im a dumbass?

Post by **romothesavior** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:12 pm

I just read through the last few pages of this thread. It's pretty clear who the mad and childish one is, and who the calm and rational ones are.

Go drink a beer and chill out bro. I'm not even trying to "get to you" and you're still letting me get to you.

BigZuck · Post by **BigZuck** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:18 pm

romothesavior wrote:I just read through the last few pages of this thread. It's pretty clear who the mad and childish one is, and who the calm and rational ones are.

Go drink a beer and chill out bro. I'm not even trying to "get to you" and you're still letting me get to you.

People are E-screaming "SHUT THE FUCK UP" at him and rad is doing his patented pithy "post and duck" one liners to antagonize him. Come on Romo. I know they are your buddies and all but at least be honest. And I actually agree with what you "mega posters" are saying, disputing being another clueless 0L myself.

Although I do agree that beer drinking would do everybody good.

bk1 · Post by **bk1** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:23 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Regarding an issue where there IS a grey area, TLS doesn't allow it.

Of course there is grey area and TLS does "allow" it. The problem is that you really haven't brought up any cogent reasons why you think Duke at sticker is reasonable. The other problem is that this discussion has veered horribly off topic based on that comment (not that I and others didn't make it worse).

rickgrimes69 · Post by **rickgrimes69** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:16 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Hard to say much now that the big guns are here. Discussion stifled. It's a shame, eh? Regarding an issue where there IS a grey area, TLS doesn't allow it.

Yes my previous post was out of line. But I've never had someone take up for me when equally douchey things are directed at me.

I don't like the TLS echo chamber either (I'll admit that it exists to a certain extent, regarding certain topics) and I don't like stifling discussion. I even acknowledged that the extent to which lack of ties (to return to the original topic) is a subject worthy of debate, just as I think one can make a reasonable argument for lower T14 at sticker (even though I personally believe it's too risky and expensive ITE).

The problem is that there hasn't been any discussion. One side has utilized statistics, experience, and logical appeals to support their arguments. The other side has basically asserted that the first side is wrong because TLS GROUPTHINK GUYS all without advancing any logical argument to the contrary.

Making things worse is your insistence on coming across as measured, and attempting to "temper" the TLS rhetoric, when the examples you use really just demonstrate your lack of understanding on the topic. Suggesting that American at sticker might be a good idea, even for the rarest of circumstances, does not demonstrate a coherent understanding of the legal market. Arguing that Duke at sticker might be a rational investment solely on the basis of risk, while discounting the difficulty of paying off sticker debt regardless of outcome, does not demonstrate a coherent understanding of the nature of legal salaries and the difficult reality of paying off $250,000+ in non-dischargeable debt.

TLS may sound like groupthink, but more often than not, there is logic behind the shared opinions. Nobody comes to the defense of contrary opinions because sometimes there is no logical defense for them. And arguing that ties have zero tangible impact on somebody's ability to get a job is an illogical and indefensible position.

[/thread]

Lord Randolph McDuff · Post by **Lord Randolph McDuff** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:00 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote: I don't like the TLS echo chamber either (I'll admit that it exists to a certain extent, regarding certain topics)

Yeah I just coined "mega-posters" like two weeks ago now that's echo'n round. Kinda nice living like the other half. Ego is swelling.

rickgrimes69 wrote: And arguing that ties have zero tangible impact on somebody's ability to get a job is an illogical and indefensible position.

Also no one said that.

Post by **romothesavior** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:01 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote: I don't like the TLS echo chamber either (I'll admit that it exists to a certain extent, regarding certain topics)
Yeah I just coined "mega-posters" like two weeks ago now that's echo'n round. Kinda nice living like the other half. Ego is swelling.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that term has been around for a long, long time.

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:11 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote: I don't like the TLS echo chamber either (I'll admit that it exists to a certain extent, regarding certain topics)
Yeah I just coined "mega-posters" like two weeks ago now that's echo'n round. Kinda nice living like the other half. Ego is swelling.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but that term has been around for a long, long time.

And it's spelled "megapoaster"

Lord Randolph McDuff · Post by **Lord Randolph McDuff** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:17 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote: I don't like the TLS echo chamber either (I'll admit that it exists to a certain extent, regarding certain topics)
Yeah I just coined "mega-posters" like two weeks ago now that's echo'n round. Kinda nice living like the other half. Ego is swelling.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but that term has been around for a long, long time.

I believe you, but cite?

Also damn.

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