Best medium/small markets with no ties

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jastrauss26
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Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby jastrauss26 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:54 pm

Ok so I posted a somewhat similar topic but have been doing some more thinking and have come up with a better question. What are the best non-major markets to enter by going to a regional school in the area with no previous ties to that area? I went to high school and my first 2 years of UG in Michigan, but i really don't feel like living there for the rest of my life. My future in-laws have a small practice that I could work at if all else fails with finding a job in another market, but I'd rather not have it resort to that. I go to school in the NYC area now and I don't really like the northeast like I thought i did. I have lived in northern Virginia, SF, and Denver (when I was very young) so I at least know the areas and can say that I have lived there. Knowing this, what sound like good areas for me to look into for LS for Fall 14? I like the southeast and northwest the best in general. Thanks!
Last edited by jastrauss26 on Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rickgrimes69 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:04 pm

Most secondary / tertiary markets are very insular and tough to break into without ties. I don't know of any that would be receptive to outsiders.

badaboom61
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby badaboom61 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:05 pm

Small markets - as in any markets that aren't New York and DC - tend to be very parochial. I don't know of any particularly "open" markets. Going to school in a place is generally at least a good start, but you'll tend to have best luck in markets that you have pre-existing ties to. If you're not from a place with a decent sized legal market, you're frankly at an immediate disadvantage when it comes to trying to find a legal job.

jastrauss26
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby jastrauss26 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:44 pm

I guess that's what I expected to hear. The cities I am most interested are Nashville, Milwaukee, St. Louis, KC, and Seattle. Are these especially hard to get into with no ties? I would go to school at regional schools in the given areas, but I want at least a decent chance of landing a jd job in these areas. I don't want big law, it doesn't fit my personality really, but I want to at least have a shot at a job in these areas

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:00 am

jastrauss26 wrote:I guess that's what I expected to hear. The cities I am most interested are Nashville, Milwaukee, St. Louis, KC, and Seattle. Are these especially hard to get into with no ties? I would go to school at regional schools in the given areas, but I want at least a decent chance of landing a jd job in these areas. I don't want big law, it doesn't fit my personality really, but I want to at least have a shot at a job in these areas


Conventional wisdom says all of those markets are mega insular and suspicious of outsiders (with the possible exception of Seattle). I would think long and hard before trying to break into one of those markets without ties, and definitely don't go to schools in those markets without a full ride - it's just too much risk otherwise.

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sublime
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby sublime » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:28 am

..

jastrauss26
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby jastrauss26 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:35 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:
jastrauss26 wrote:I guess that's what I expected to hear. The cities I am most interested are Nashville, Milwaukee, St. Louis, KC, and Seattle. Are these especially hard to get into with no ties? I would go to school at regional schools in the given areas, but I want at least a decent chance of landing a jd job in these areas. I don't want big law, it doesn't fit my personality really, but I want to at least have a shot at a job in these areas


Conventional wisdom says all of those markets are mega insular and suspicious of outsiders (with the possible exception of Seattle). I would think long and hard before trying to break into one of those markets without ties, and definitely don't go to schools in those markets without a full ride - it's just too much risk otherwise.


Makes sense to me, I guess I have to figure out what my options are next year after I have applied. Do you think that a school like Vanderbilt that is close to a T14 would give me a good shot in Nashville with no ties to that area?

rad lulz
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rad lulz » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:43 am

jastrauss26 wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
jastrauss26 wrote:I guess that's what I expected to hear. The cities I am most interested are Nashville, Milwaukee, St. Louis, KC, and Seattle. Are these especially hard to get into with no ties? I would go to school at regional schools in the given areas, but I want at least a decent chance of landing a jd job in these areas. I don't want big law, it doesn't fit my personality really, but I want to at least have a shot at a job in these areas


Conventional wisdom says all of those markets are mega insular and suspicious of outsiders (with the possible exception of Seattle). I would think long and hard before trying to break into one of those markets without ties, and definitely don't go to schools in those markets without a full ride - it's just too much risk otherwise.


Makes sense to me, I guess I have to figure out what my options are next year after I have applied. Do you think that a school like Vanderbilt that is close to a T14 would give me a good shot in Nashville with no ties to that area?

You get a shot but it's not a great idea to go to Vandy for that (if you have no prior ties)

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cahwc12
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby cahwc12 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:49 am

This is a pretty interesting question with seemingly a bland answer. I think the other thing to consider here is that if you take any law school in consideration (say, WUSTL), over 40% of the graduates can't find jobs as lawyers. Say you're a recruiter for a St. Louis firm and you go to WUSTL for OCI. All things equal, are you more likely to hire a guy from the area, or a guy who just came here for law school?

Others will tell you--law school just isn't the time to find yourself or where you'll want to end up. If you really want to break into market X, the best choice might be to go work there for a year or two before going to law school there. If it's a place like Houston, working there would also help you gain residency for UT.

It would be cool to have the information you seek but I just don't think it exists beyond anecdotes.

jastrauss26
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby jastrauss26 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:50 am

rad lulz wrote:
jastrauss26 wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
jastrauss26 wrote:I guess that's what I expected to hear. The cities I am most interested are Nashville, Milwaukee, St. Louis, KC, and Seattle. Are these especially hard to get into with no ties? I would go to school at regional schools in the given areas, but I want at least a decent chance of landing a jd job in these areas. I don't want big law, it doesn't fit my personality really, but I want to at least have a shot at a job in these areas


Conventional wisdom says all of those markets are mega insular and suspicious of outsiders (with the possible exception of Seattle). I would think long and hard before trying to break into one of those markets without ties, and definitely don't go to schools in those markets without a full ride - it's just too much risk otherwise.


Makes sense to me, I guess I have to figure out what my options are next year after I have applied. Do you think that a school like Vanderbilt that is close to a T14 would give me a good shot in Nashville with no ties to that area?

You get a shot but it's not a great idea to go to Vandy for that (if you have no prior ties)


So in my case, I am pretty much stuck in Michigan you're saying? What about Northern Virginia (where I grew up for 6 years)?

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:54 am

jastrauss26 wrote:
So in my case, I am pretty much stuck in Michigan you're saying? What about Northern Virginia (where I grew up for 6 years)?


Oh god. Enough.

Please do not listen to all these 23-24 year old kids on TLS who have never lived in, tried to find employment in, or even visited these "mega insular" states. You are not "stuck in Michigan forever," that's just asinine.

A few years ago one or two posters on TLS had a hard time convincing OCI firms in secondary markets that they wanted to live in those secondary markets. They posted on TLS. Then other people who have had experienced similar difficulties agreed with them. They posted on TLS. Now, this nugget of "conventional wisdom" has telephoned into something completely different. It went from "a student at a top law school will have difficulty finding OCI success at firms located in areas where the student does not have ties," to------- "most of the United States is uber-parochial and insular and even if you go to a regional school you will be viewed as an outsider and will not get a job in the local economy if you didn't go to highschool there." The first sentence aligns with common sense, and is true. The latter sentence is completely false.

OP -- 90% of what you read on TLS is repeated information. There is a vetting process for new information on this site, but it is flawed and if information isn't corrected quickly it is soon lost into the echo chamber. In this case, TLS is ass-backward. If you go to the local school near these cities, so long as you are a (mostly) normal american, you will be fine. The graduates from these schools, unlike the top schools, do not have other options. The employers in and around KC know that KU and Mizzou grads can only go so far, and your "why KC" story will make perfect sense to them. After all, you will have just spent 3 years and a ton of money to get a degree that has value in KC and hardly anywhere else. Moreover, students often have very different goals and what school they attend can be telling. Someone who attends GULC or Vandy might well have different ambitions than someone who attends the University of Kansas. Fairly or unfairly, some people expect the private school kid to want to jump around until they are some sort of captain of industry, but the "I want to attend KU so my wife and I can settle in Kansas" student will usually be viewed in a completely different light. I don't know what your story will be, but rest assured you can create a marketable "why X state" elevator speech if you put a little thought into it. The trick is to actually mean it, and you'll be fine.

For what it's worth, I've lived in KC, OKC, Dallas, Austin, and now Denver-- none of these areas are suspect of outsiders or parochial. They are expanding quickly, in constant flux, and full of "outsiders." This is the case for most metro areas in the country. Now, of course, if you want to find work in a small town in Alabama, all bets are off. But you mentioned metro areas, not back-wood villages.

You are not stuck in Michigan or anywhere else. Good luck.
Last edited by Lord Randolph McDuff on Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

rad lulz
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rad lulz » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:00 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
jastrauss26 wrote:
So in my case, I am pretty much stuck in Michigan you're saying? What about Northern Virginia (where I grew up for 6 years)?


Oh god. Enough.

Please do not listen to all these 23-24 year old kids on TLS who have never lived in, tried to find employment in, or even visited these "mega insular" states. You are not "stuck in Michigan forever," that's just asinine.

A few years ago one or two posters on TLS had a hard time convincing OCI firms in secondary markets that they wanted to live in those secondary markets. They posted on TLS. Then other people who have had experienced similar difficulties agreed with them. They posted on TLS. Now, this nugget of "conventional wisdom" has telephoned into something completely different. It went from "a student at a top law school will have difficulty finding OCI success at firms located in areas where the student does not have ties," to------- "most of the United States is uber-parochial and insular and even if you go to a regional school you will be viewed as an outsider and will not get a job in the local economy if you didn't go to highschool there." The first sentence aligns with common sense, and is true. The latter sentence is completely false.

OP -- 90% of what you read on TLS is repeated information. There is a vetting process for new information on this site, but it is flawed and if information isn't corrected quickly it is soon lost into the echo chamber. In this case, TLS is ass-backward. If you go to the local school near these cities, so long as you are a (mostly) normal american, you will be fine. The graduates from these schools, unlike the top schools, do not have other options. The employers in and around KC know that KU and Mizzou grads can only go so far, and your "why KC" story will make perfect sense to them. After all, you will have just spent 3 years and a ton of money to get a degree that has value in KC and hardly anywhere else.

For what it's worth, I've lived in KC, OKC, Dallas, Austin, and now Denver-- none of these areas are suspect of outsiders or parochial. They are expanding quickly, in constant flux, and full of "outsiders." This is the case for most metro areas in the country. Now, of course, if you want to find work in a small town in Alabama, all bets are off. But you mentioned metro areas, not back-wood villages. You'll be fine. Good luck.

(has no idea what he's talking about)

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:07 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
jastrauss26 wrote:
So in my case, I am pretty much stuck in Michigan you're saying? What about Northern Virginia (where I grew up for 6 years)?


Oh god. Enough.

Please do not listen to all these 23-24 year old kids on TLS who have never lived in, tried to find employment in, or even visited these "mega insular" states. You are not "stuck in Michigan forever," that's just asinine.

A few years ago one or two posters on TLS had a hard time convincing OCI firms in secondary markets that they wanted to live in those secondary markets. They posted on TLS. Then other people who have had experienced similar difficulties agreed with them. They posted on TLS. Now, this nugget of "conventional wisdom" has telephoned into something completely different. It went from "a student at a top law school will have difficulty finding OCI success at firms located in areas where the student does not have ties," to------- "most of the United States is uber-parochial and insular and even if you go to a regional school you will be viewed as an outsider and will not get a job in the local economy if you didn't go to highschool there." The first sentence aligns with common sense, and is true. The latter sentence is completely false.

OP -- 90% of what you read on TLS is repeated information. There is a vetting process for new information on this site, but it is flawed and if information isn't corrected quickly it is soon lost into the echo chamber. In this case, TLS is ass-backward. If you go to the local school near these cities, so long as you are a (mostly) normal american, you will be fine. The graduates from these schools, unlike the top schools, do not have other options. The employers in and around KC know that KU and Mizzou grads can only go so far, and your "why KC" story will make perfect sense to them. After all, you will have just spent 3 years and a ton of money to get a degree that has value in KC and hardly anywhere else.

For what it's worth, I've lived in KC, OKC, Dallas, Austin, and now Denver-- none of these areas are suspect of outsiders or parochial. They are expanding quickly, in constant flux, and full of "outsiders." This is the case for most metro areas in the country. Now, of course, if you want to find work in a small town in Alabama, all bets are off. But you mentioned metro areas, not back-wood villages. You'll be fine. Good luck.

(has no idea what he's talking about)


Here comes the mega-posters, on cue.

Romo next?

rad lulz
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby rad lulz » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:22 pm

OP PM this dude about getting a job in a secondary market where you go to school with no preexisting ties.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=78880

McDuff is a 1L and has no idea what he's talking about

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:41 pm

rad lulz wrote:OP PM this dude about getting a job in a secondary market where you go to school with no preexisting ties.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=78880

McDuff is a 1L and has no idea what he's talking about


2L at a regional school where over 50% of students are out of state. Lots of people successfully go against your "conventional wisdom" here every year. Have you even visited Colorado? Even one ski trip?

OP rad is a 3L at Vandy, he has had about 3 TLS accounts that I know of, posts about 25 times a day, and, at least on this topic, has no idea what he is talking about.


edit-- also, looks like that dood you linked went to CCN, or at least he claimed he did. Those schools aren't regional rad. Neither is Vandy... It is like you a purposely missing the point.

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holdencaulfield
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby holdencaulfield » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:55 pm

Answering OP's original question about NON-MAJOR markets. At least in Texas, you must have ties. My classmates (who are now practicing attorneys at firms in these markets) have told me firsthand that you have no shot without ties. Literally, they will trash your top 5% resume because they desperately want to avoid 2nd year associates jumping ship as soon as they get a better gig in a big city.


In my market (DFW) and other major markets, ties are still important, but not necessary.

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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:11 pm

Based on an experience similar to McDuff's (i.e. regional not national school), I think he has a point. It may be the difference between going to a regional school to work in that market and going to a "national" school expecting to work elsewhere. I think if you go to a "national" school planning to target a market that is not that school's market, without ties, you can run into difficulties. So if you go to, say, Georgetown, and you want to work in Milwaukee, and you have no ties to Milwaukee - that may be kind of hard (can't say from personal experience, but I could see that). But if you have no ties to a city but go to the regional law school in that city, you can make connections and get a job.

For instance, a city like Denver, the lawyers are mostly from Colorado, went to a fancy law school and came back; or went to law school in Colorado, regardless of where they're from originally. Sure, some of the latter are from Colorado, but by no means all. It's a function of how well you can convince people that you went to law school in a region because you knew you wanted to settle and work there, and part of that is getting involved in law school, working, making connections. Obviously nothing is guaranteed, but nothing is ever guaranteed in going to law school.

Yeah, I do think that moving to the region where you want to be and working for a couple of years is probably really helpful in making a convincing case that you want to be there. But I think going to the regional law school can also work. (Regional may actually be better than national in this case - it seems to me lots of people go to UVA with no intention of actually living in Virginia. But people don't usually go to CU - using McDuff's example - if they don't want to be in Colorado, or at least a neighboring state.)

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:20 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Based on an experience similar to McDuff's (i.e. regional not national school), I think he has a point. It may be the difference between going to a regional school to work in that market and going to a "national" school expecting to work elsewhere. I think if you go to a "national" school planning to target a market that is not that school's market, without ties, you can run into difficulties. So if you go to, say, Georgetown, and you want to work in Milwaukee, and you have no ties to Milwaukee - that may be kind of hard (can't say from personal experience, but I could see that). But if you have no ties to a city but go to the regional law school in that city, you can make connections and get a job.

For instance, a city like Denver, the lawyers are mostly from Colorado, went to a fancy law school and came back; or went to law school in Colorado, regardless of where they're from originally. Sure, some of the latter are from Colorado, but by no means all. It's a function of how well you can convince people that you went to law school in a region because you knew you wanted to settle and work there, and part of that is getting involved in law school, working, making connections. Obviously nothing is guaranteed, but nothing is ever guaranteed in going to law school.

Yeah, I do think that moving to the region where you want to be and working for a couple of years is probably really helpful in making a convincing case that you want to be there. But I think going to the regional law school can also work. (Regional may actually be better than national in this case - it seems to me lots of people go to UVA with no intention of actually living in Virginia. But people don't usually go to CU - using McDuff's example - if they don't want to be in Colorado, or at least a neighboring state.)


This gives me some hope that I have actually explained this in a manner that is somewhat coherent. Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:29 pm

holdencaulfield wrote:Answering OP's original question about NON-MAJOR markets. At least in Texas, you must have ties. My classmates (who are now practicing attorneys at firms in these markets) have told me firsthand that you have no shot without ties. Literally, they will trash your top 5% resume because they desperately want to avoid 2nd year associates jumping ship as soon as they get a better gig in a big city.


In my market (DFW) and other major markets, ties are still important, but not necessary.


Thanks for clarifying. I never meant to suggest that ties are not important for large firms. That is only a small segment of legal hiring, though. Also, UT attracts students from all over the country who may well want to work in D.C. or California. SMU/Baylor/UH/Tech do not. I bet the top student at Baylor could biglaw in Houston, regardless of whether or not he/she was from Texas originally. The bottom line is: can I convince employers I am going to stay here?

I do know that some of the very few students at CU and DU who get jobs at (one of the three or four) large Denver firms have zero ties beyond their law school. We just had a panel here where 4 or 5 of them came back and gave us advice about how to get firm work.

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romothesavior
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:30 pm

Ah this stupid ass argument again.

Here's the deal with ties OP... they aren't going to be 100% necessary or sufficient to get a job in a secondary market. A person with ties and shit grades is probably screwed, and a person with stellar grades and no ties will probably be fine. But they are a very big (in some markets VERY big) factor in hiring, and that's why the issue comes up when discussing them in relation to regional law schools with marginal placement. Why put yourself behind the 8 ball right out of the gate?

Every law student, CSO officer, and hiring person I've come in contact with talks about ties being important to varying degrees. This isn't to say they're the trump card or an impossible barrier, but to talk about then like they're a non factor and a product of TLS echo chamber is certifiable grade-A bullshit.

To answer your question, some markets are less tie conscious than others. KC and Indy are less insular than STL and Cincinnati, for example. STL and Cincinnati want to know where you went to high school and treat people outside the city (let alone the state) like aliens, whereas my experience in KC and Indy was that they are more open to Midwesterners and smaller city dwellers generally. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find a place where they're a non-issue.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby Elston Gunn » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:34 pm

The problem with what Lord Mcduff said--which at least sounds perfectly reasonable, though I have no experience with it--is that if you go to one of the regional schools, there's a really good chance you're not going to get any decent legal job. For the same reason they trust that a KU grad actually wants to work in KC (they can't get a job elsewhere), there's a good chance the student is straight-up screwed.

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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:38 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:The problem with what Lord Mcduff said--which at least sounds perfectly reasonable, though I have no experience with it--is that if you go to one of the regional schools, there's a really good chance you're not going to get any decent legal job. For the same reason they trust that a KU grad actually wants to work in KC (they can't get a job elsewhere), there's a good chance the student is straight-up screwed.

Yes, unfortunately, that's the trade-off you face. People do get good jobs coming out of many regional schools (the flagship for the region, for instance), but the chances are worse. Like romo said, the people with stellar grades are probably always going to do well and don't have to worry about any of this, but you can't know that will be you before you go. So it can be a gamble.

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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby jastrauss26 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:49 pm

Thanks for your input everybody. I am only a junior so I still have time to think about everything, I just wanted to make sure that my research wouldn't end up being wasted time. I know that being a top student at your school increases your chances for any prospect, but I don't know how I will do in LS, so I just wanted to see if under sub-optimal decisions I would be screwed or have a decent chance with no ties. Thanks for your input, again.

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star fox
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby star fox » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:55 pm

If there's a city you particularly want it probably isn't a bad idea to move there and work for a year or two before Law School. From what I've heard the big concern is that you'll bolt back to your home city in a year or two and they'll have wasted their time hiring and training you (most associates don't become profitable for the firm until after a couple of years). Especially given most secondary cities are pretty boring places (no offense to anyone from these places) compared to the big markets, if there's nothing holding you down it becomes a lot more uncertain than someone who was born and raised and has their whole family in that city. I think if you move there between UG and LS you can really show future employers that you are committed to living in that city.

jastrauss26
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Re: Best medium/small markets with no ties

Postby jastrauss26 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:23 pm

john7234797 wrote:If there's a city you particularly want it probably isn't a bad idea to move there and work for a year or two before Law School. From what I've heard the big concern is that you'll bolt back to your home city in a year or two and they'll have wasted their time hiring and training you (most associates don't become profitable for the firm until after a couple of years). Especially given most secondary cities are pretty boring places (no offense to anyone from these places) compared to the big markets, if there's nothing holding you down it becomes a lot more uncertain than someone who was born and raised and has their whole family in that city. I think if you move there between UG and LS you can really show future employers that you are committed to living in that city.


Great advice, I will definitely take that into consideration




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