Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

What Should I Do?

Irvine. Graduate debt free
50
31%
Michigan. Graduate with 50-100 k of debt
91
56%
Don't go to Law School
21
13%
 
Total votes: 162

Golden Bear 11
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby Golden Bear 11 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:55 am

I hope people considering UCI realize that the school's medians have dropped from 3.65/167 (inaugural class) to 3.49/165. Of course, the school doesn't post the new medians on their website. And remember UCI's class size will keep increasing so the medians will probably continue to drop.

Even so, between the two choices, i would choose irvine?

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bananasplit19
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby bananasplit19 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:36 am

AssumptionRequired wrote:Please, post the employment statistics of UCI and I only want to see what percent got biglaw or Article III clerkships.... oh wait....it was only 58 kids, so there is not really much to go off of.

As I've noted, a lack of a large sample size to base conclusions off of isn't a good enough reason to actively bash a school or say it'll plummet to the 50s/TTT territory. All we can say is "we don't know." Of course there's risk involved. But there's nothing that points to it being a TTT deathtrap, so why jump to that conclusion with such enthusiasm? Dismissing the encouraging c/o 2012 numbers is fine. But to conclude the opposite because of them is just plain silly.

AssumptionRequired wrote:The first class will also have been pushed and helped a lot more than the rest will because the school cares more about employment statistics now than it ever will.

I also find it hard to believe that the school will eventually stop working hard for their students and the school's own employment statistics. Do people really believe Chem will get lazy and stop using his connections to get the leg up for the kids graduating from his vanity project? Will he get distracted by a bumblebee or something? I fail to see how people assume there will be a fiscal cliff after which UCI and its career office will stop working hard and just eat potato chips on the couch. :?

AssumptionRequired wrote:If you are intent on public service, then the debt wont kill you anyways because of Federal assistance on loans and LRAP

I'm a 0L, but I have a lot of friends who have just graduated/passed the bar, including some from upper T14. From what I hear (and again, this is just hearsay), LRAP isn't always that simple. LRAP-eligible jobs can be extremely difficult to get depending on the program, and you pigeonhole yourself to a standard of living that may be below your preference simply because you can't afford to get paid more! While it can be a godsend, and something that I personally am investigating carefully as an option for myself, I would caution OP against assuming LRAP is carte blanche to saddle up $100K in loans with no fear.

Golden Bear 11 wrote:I hope people considering UCI realize that the school's medians have dropped from 3.65/167 (inaugural class) to 3.49/165. Of course, the school doesn't post the new medians on their website. And remember UCI's class size will keep increasing so the medians will probably continue to drop.

I have done absolutely no research on this, but my read of the landscape is that medians across most schools in the 15-30 range are dropping. Probably not as much as UCI, but then again, the 15-30 schools aren't expanding their class sizes.

Here's a legit question, though: will the BigLaw firms base their decision to continue supporting UCI (or abandoning UCI) on the performance of the new graduates and summer associates they've hired (in effect, what will become UCI's alumni base), or will they base it largely off the school's changing LSAT/GPA medians? If it's the former, then I wouldn't put too much stock in the median drops. If it's the latter, then yeah, that's going to play a serious role in UCI's presence in the area. Doesn't affect OP since he/she isn't shooting for it, but it would be good for the rest of us to keep a finger on the pulse for. Anyone have any reputable idea how that works?

---

ETA: It may look like I'm a UCI apologist. I'm not. Dunno if I'm even going to attend. But on the off-chance UCI is the real deal, it would be stupid for me to reject it out of hand just because no one has ever lost points for bashing UCI on TLS. Nothing wrong with healthy, constructive debate, right?

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worldtraveler
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby worldtraveler » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:59 am

I think most people in this thread didn't read the OP. OP doesn't want public service or big law. He wants small law or mid law, and it sounds like family law or tort law. LRAP is likely irrelevant in that context. So is big law placement. He also appears to want to be in socal. Ability to place nationally is also irrelevant. Doesn't appear he wants to clerk either.

I'm speaking from experience here, that I think the one big drawback of going to a top 10 school is its lack of focus for people who want the exact kind of thing the OP wants. There is assistance to go into PI, into big law, government, sometimes int'l work. There is very little career service assistance or any emphasis for people who want to hang their own shingle or go to a small family law practice. Those employers don't even recruit at the T10 for the most part. I also have the feeling that they might not take an applicant from a T10 seriously if they think the T10 student is just applying as a fall back.

I have 2 friends at Berkeley who have been somewhat screwed over by this situation. One wants immigration and one wants to do family law. Both contemplated big law for a time, and either didn't get it or tried it and hated it. PI jobs in immigration and family law are also pretty tough to come by. So now they are in the difficult spot where the best job opportunities are with small law shops or going solo, where they could make an ok living and do what they love, but the major problem is that they will not get LRAP assistance and will not get big law money to pay back the debt. The structure of LRAP vs. major debt leaves people in the middle screwed.

I'm not really a fan of UCI. I don't think it's necessarily a good move for the OP, and as I said before, he should try to get money at USC. But the group think that prestige is always best is just asinine and misleading. It's not always best for everyone, and OP seems like one of those cases.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby Dr. Dre » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:17 am

OP, like i said before, just don't go to law school.

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:08 pm

But my question is why is USC a better option than UCI at a higher price? Especially for a PI focused student?

Other students and I have already posted the opportunities and things that UCI grads are doing. TLS is a bastion for don't pay too much for your law degree and get scholarship money to your local school where you want to practice. USNews is a joke don't worry about the rankings. Then when it comes to UCI, the answers are: It's not ranked, It's a shithole, OMG you are making a huge mistake, when the classes get bigger its going to be a toilet.... etc

NONE of the above has been proven. Yes the employment numbers are not published, yet UCI is NOT Indiana Tech.

USC is a better choice than UCLA because of its smaller class size; although UCI is a shiTTThole because of its even smaller class size?

I will leave it alone. TLS'ers just hate UCI

leagle1
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby leagle1 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:36 am

Yes the employment numbers are not published


That's not exactly true: http://www.law.uci.edu/career_dev/emplo ... stics.html

Also, of the three that were unemployed, two have found jobs and the last only recently started looking for personal reason(s). So that is... 98% employment?

Now, in before "that's just the first class, they are special".

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:14 am

leagle1 wrote:
Yes the employment numbers are not published


That's not exactly true: http://www.law.uci.edu/career_dev/emplo ... stics.html

Also, of the three that were unemployed, two have found jobs and the last only recently started looking for personal reason(s). So that is... 98% employment?

Now, in before "that's just the first class, they are special".


bravo

WhoisJohnGalt?
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby WhoisJohnGalt? » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:55 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:OP, like i said before, just don't go to law school.


leaning toward this / maybe Irvine. Anyone going to ASW for irvine feel free to PM me.

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twenty
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby twenty » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:05 pm

It's almost unimaginable that anyone could think Michigan at sticker is a better idea than UCI with a full scholarship for this guy. OP is the textbook definition of someone who should go to a regional school on a full ride. UCI, while not UCLA/USC, is at least a decent regional school, and considering the fact that his alternative is getting fired in a year, UCI is absolutely TCR.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby Dr. Dre » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:20 am

twentypercentmore wrote: UCI is absolutely TCR.



Image


you want to ruin OP's life?

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:34 am

twentypercentmore wrote:It's almost unimaginable that anyone could think Michigan at sticker is a better idea than UCI with a full scholarship for this guy. OP is the textbook definition of someone who should go to a regional school on a full ride. UCI, while not UCLA/USC, is at least a decent regional school, and considering the fact that his alternative is getting fired in a year, UCI is absolutely TCR.


This has merit. OP sounds fried and a decent law school for free while moving into another career isn't a terrible idea.

Having said that, retaking and/or getting $$ at USC/UCLA/T14 is the much much better option.

Also, that Stockton gif isn't bad.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby Dr. Dre » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:45 pm

No, UC irvine law is not worth going to. If OP is fried, let him switch to another career. He doesn't need law school.

WhiskeynCoke
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby WhiskeynCoke » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:40 pm

WTF is wrong with you people shouting Michigan at sticker? Did you not read what his GOALS were??

The decision to go to law school is to not end up at a big law firm (i dont need that lifestyle again, and if I do want it, I ll stay put in my current profession). I want to either practice with my Dad (family law), or do something like Personal Injury/Social Security/Suing Insurance Companies etc... I know this is not glamorous, but for me the impact on the layman is tangible and what has been termed as shit law, can be potentially be lucrative, if done right. I also am fully cognizant that the state of the legal job market is dismal--and going to law school might be the biggest financial mistake of my life. I also have questions on shifts in legal practice and the economy in general that may have a negative impact on the profession in the years to come


- He wants nothing to do with Big law, so why the fuck pay $150k+ more for Michigan?
- He has a job with dad waiting for him after graduation that he WANTS to do.
- He also wants to go directly into SHIT LAW.

How will Irvine not accomplish these goals just as splendidly as Michigan, but for way less fucking money?

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:41 pm

Because Irvine is not ranked :roll:

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby Dr. Dre » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:44 pm

Even if OP has crappy goals, UC Irvine is still not the good option. Why? UC Irvine will not allow you to reach ANY goals, crappy or laudable.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby Rahviveh » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:45 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:Even if OP has crappy goals, UC Irvine is still not the good option. Why? UC Irvine will not allow you to reach ANY goals, crappy or laudable.

But UCI is outplacing many T14's in biglawl :wink:

leagle1
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby leagle1 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:15 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:Even if OP has crappy goals, UC Irvine is still not the good option. Why? UC Irvine will not allow you to reach ANY goals, crappy or laudable.


LOL, I guess all those UCI students who got federal clerkships or biglaw jobs must have actually wanted to be astronauts or something.

leagle1
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Paging Dr. Dre

Postby leagle1 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:25 pm

UCI Law Class of 2012 employment rate ranks 11th among U.S. law schools, according to The Faculty Lounge

http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/03 ... -term.html

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hephaestus
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Re: Paging Dr. Dre

Postby hephaestus » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:36 pm

leagle1 wrote:UCI Law Class of 2012 employment rate ranks 11th among U.S. law schools, according to The Faculty Lounge

http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/03 ... -term.html

1: based off of one year with the highest level of institutional support a graduating class will ever get.
2: it's an incredibly small class size, and these percentages mean little for the current larger class size
3: a lack of an alumni network will hurt once profs stop shaking down judges for clerkships
4: it takes more than one year for a trend

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IAFG
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby IAFG » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:40 pm

OP should learn to bake and buy a cupcake truck.

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Dmini7
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Re: Paging Dr. Dre

Postby Dmini7 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:45 pm

leagle1 wrote:UCI Law Class of 2012 employment rate ranks 11th among U.S. law schools, according to The Faculty Lounge

http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/03 ... -term.html


Although I agree that UCI placed its first class well and in desirable positions, If you were to just take that information from Faculty Lounge at face value: WVU, LSU SMU, and Kentucky are all in the top 25. It is hard to say any of those schools placed a significant number of students in sought after high paying jobs.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Paging Dr. Dre

Postby Dr. Dre » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:31 pm

ImNoScar wrote:
leagle1 wrote:UCI Law Class of 2012 employment rate ranks 11th among U.S. law schools, according to The Faculty Lounge

http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/03 ... -term.html

1: based off of one year with the highest level of institutional support a graduating class will ever get.
2: it's an incredibly small class size, and these percentages mean little for the current larger class size
3: a lack of an alumni network will hurt once profs stop shaking down judges for clerkships
4: it takes more than one year for a trend

WhoisJohnGalt?
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby WhoisJohnGalt? » Fri May 24, 2013 4:48 pm

chose Irvine. Will graduate with skrilla in the bank

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby bizzybone1313 » Fri May 24, 2013 8:13 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:Dre what are your credentials to give someone advice?


-First hip-hop artist to gain mainstream acceptance with gangsta music with the album "The Chronic" (1992).

-Assaulted TV hostess Dee Barnes (Pump It Up) in retaliation to her interviewing Ice Cube, where he made a deragatory comment against N.W.A. (at the time, the album Efil4zaggin debuted at #1). [1991]

-Father of rapper Curtis "Hood Surgeon" Young, from a teenage relationship, Marcel (b. 1991), with singer Michel'le, son Truth (b. 1997) and daughter Truly (b. 2001).

-Credited for discovering rapper Eminem.

-21st February 2001: Became the first hip-hop producer to win a Grammy for Producer of The Year. He was also nominated for 4 other awards including: Best Rap Performance by a Duo or Group for the track "Forget About Dre" with Eminem.

-Won an MTV Music Video Award in 1995 for the hit single "Keep Their Heads Ringin." The music video starred Chris Tucker, who steals and pilots a Boeing 747.

-He was voted the 54th Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Artist of all time by Rolling Stone.

-Ranked #7 on VH1's 50 Greatest Hip Hop Artists.


Can you do one of these breakdowns for me of Bone Thugs-N-Harmony? Thx.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Michigan (sticker) vs. Irvine (basically free) or Don't Go

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu May 30, 2013 1:07 pm

What choice did you end up making — OP?

EDIT:

WhoisJohnGalt? wrote:chose Irvine. Will graduate with skrilla in the bank


see you at starbucks!




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