U of Illinois Just Dropped Some More

[arden311]

I just got an email from The University of Illinois College of Law that says that they have dropped from 35 to 47. This is due to the continuing fallout from the scandal. IMO this is really pretty crazy given their very decent placement numbers in NLJ 250.

Call me crazy, but I don't care what the USNews has to say. My goal is NLJ 250 (did not have the numbers to go to a T14 and I want to practice in Chicago). The only thing that worries me is that 2 years from now, the NLJ 250 numbers will plummet because firms will perceive the 2016, 2017 classes as subpar. On the other hand, there is a strong UICU alumni base in Chicago. Thoughts?

[sinfiery]

Paging rad lulz

[hephaestus]

1. Law firms don't look at fluctuating rankings and base hiring decisions off inane US News distinctions.
2. If big law is your goal you have to retake. Going to UIUC is not the place to make that happen. Even a T14 not in Chicago can get you back if you are from the area (not a sure thing, but a better chance than at UIUC).

[K Rock]

The admission standards at Illinois have fallen. Employers may not pay attention to fluctuations in the rankings but they will pay attention to a downward trend that lasts for a significant period of time, and I dont think that Illinois will climb back.

[timbs4339]

Illinois biglaw placement was SPS before the rankings drop and will be SPS if they get back to the 30s.

The two operative considerations are where does your school rank in the market (including T14), and how big of a biglaw market is it? Chicago is a tiny market for the size of the city and there are like 10 local schools that feed into it as well as all the T14.

[arden311]

1. Law firms don't look at fluctuating rankings and base hiring decisions off inane US News distinctions.
2. If big law is your goal you have to retake. Going to UIUC is not the place to make that happen. Even a T14 not in Chicago can get you back if you are from the area (not a sure thing, but a better chance than at UIUC).

I'm not T14 material unfortunately. The NLJ 250 rankings are pretty good. And Chicago midlaw would be ok if I don't get top 15% of my class.

Illinois biglaw placement was SPS before the rankings drop and will be SPS if they get back to the 30s.

The two operative considerations are where does your school rank in the market (including T14), and how big of a biglaw market is it? Chicago is a tiny market for the size of the city and there are like 10 local schools that feed into it as well as all the T14.

You don't think the Illinois alumni base would counter this? I'm going to be emailing some Illinois big law people to see how the school is perceived in the city. I'll post my results and people can judge for themselves.

[timbs4339]

Illinois biglaw placement was SPS before the rankings drop and will be SPS if they get back to the 30s.

The two operative considerations are where does your school rank in the market (including T14), and how big of a biglaw market is it? Chicago is a tiny market for the size of the city and there are like 10 local schools that feed into it as well as all the T14.

You don't think the Illinois alumni base would counter this? I'm going to be emailing some Illinois big law people to see how the school is perceived in the city. I'll post my results and people can judge for themselves.

And they'll tell you its a wonderful school and they had a great time going there and it opened up a ton of doors for them and you get a solid legal education. And when you ask them where they hire their summers they'll give you some bullshit answer about firm politics. And then they'll show up to OCI, interview only the top 20%, give one callback, and hire 75% of their summer class from Chicago, NW, and the rest of the T14 because lawyers are prestige whores. The numbers don't lie with this type of thing.

[homestyle28]

Go read through the NU or UChi 2012 OCI pages, Chicago is rough even in the t-14...it might be better in a few years, but you can't count on that. You'd better be ok with your plan B options from UIUC (i.e. a state-wide search for anything paying). That being said if you can't break t-14 or get into WUSTL, UIUC is probably your next best option for Chicago.

[Ludo!]

You just now found this out bro? You probably shouldn't be a lawyer

e: read the rest of the thread, jesus christ. retake or don't go.

[09042014]

Illinois is a great university, and it's highly respected in Chicago. But Illinois law isn't a biglaw powerhouse. No school below USC/Vandy/UCLA/Texas is good at big law.

I wouldn't go unless you get a huge scholarship.

[M458]

Go read through the NU or UChi 2012 OCI pages, Chicago is rough even in the t-14...it might be better in a few years, but you can't count on that. You'd better be ok with your plan B options from UIUC (i.e. a state-wide search for anything paying). That being said if you can't break t-14 or get into WUSTL, UIUC is probably your next best option for Chicago.

How well do you have to do 1L year at NU to feel somewhat comfortable about getting an SA from a Chicago firm at OCI? Top 25%? Median?

[arden311]

Go read through the NU or UChi 2012 OCI pages, Chicago is rough even in the t-14...it might be better in a few years, but you can't count on that. You'd better be ok with your plan B options from UIUC (i.e. a state-wide search for anything paying). That being said if you can't break t-14 or get into WUSTL, UIUC is probably your next best option for Chicago.

If you can't get into WUSTL? Like a previous poster said, the numbers don't lie, and all I see reading the NLJ 250 is that U of I is in slightly in front of WUSTL. And you can bet that while most people from WUSTL go to St. Louis big firms, Illinois people exclusively go to Chicago firms.

And then they'll show up to OCI, interview only the top 20%, give one callback, and hire 75% of their summer class from Chicago, NW, and the rest of the T14 because lawyers are prestige whores. The numbers don't lie with this type of thing.

Ok, then how do you explain the 18.5 percent NLJ 250 number? You're saying that one person in the top 20% gets a call back. Where does the rest of the 18.5 percent come from?

[hephaestus]

Make yourself T14 material. And Chicago Midlaw is not the alternative to missing the big law boat. It's not like 15 percent big law and the other 85 percent go home happy with midlaw.

First, there are not that many mid law firms (generally a dichotomy between big law and small firms).

Second, the ones that do exist do not have SAs or have very small summer classes. For example, in Pittsburgh, out of the five or six midlaw firms, 2 don't have a program and 3 take between 1-2 each year. The firms replenish themselves primarily off of big law laterals.

Third, midlaw is a fantastic outcome (some would argue better than big law because of significantly increased partnership prospects). Many people at T14s that strike out at OCI will be ahead of you for these jobs.
So no, midlaw is not something to settle for.

[Ludo!]

Make yourself T14 material. And Chicago Midlaw is not the alternative to missing the big law boat. It's not like 15 percent big law and the other 85 percent go home happy with midlaw.

First, there are not that many mid law firms (generally a dichotomy between big law and small firms).

Second, the ones that do exist do not have SAs or have very small summer classes. For example, in Pittsburgh, out of the five or six midlaw firms, 2 don't have a program and 3 take between 1-2 each year. The firms replenish themselves primarily off of big law laterals.

Third, midlaw is a fantastic outcome (some would argue better than big law because of significantly increased partnership prospects). Many people at T14s that strike out at OCI will be ahead of you for these jobs.
So no, midlaw is not something to settle for.

This this this

[arden311]

Make yourself T14 material. And Chicago Midlaw is not the alternative to missing the big law boat. It's not like 15 percent big law and the other 85 percent go home happy with midlaw.

First, there are not that many mid law firms (generally a dichotomy between big law and small firms).

Second, the ones that do exist do not have SAs or have very small summer classes. For example, in Pittsburgh, out of the five or six midlaw firms, 2 don't have a program and 3 take between 1-2 each year. The firms replenish themselves primarily off of big law laterals.

Third, midlaw is a fantastic outcome (some would argue better than big law because of significantly increased partnership prospects). Many people at T14s that strike out at OCI will be ahead of you for these jobs.
So no, midlaw is not something to settle for.

This this this

I appreciate the response. Helpful information about the midlaw scene. I took the lsat 3 times and my score pretty much stayed the same the second two times, so I think I might be stuck going to a T1 school and shining shoes. Oh well the sun still shines.

[Ludo!]

Or you could just not go to law school

[hephaestus]

Make yourself T14 material. And Chicago Midlaw is not the alternative to missing the big law boat. It's not like 15 percent big law and the other 85 percent go home happy with midlaw.

First, there are not that many mid law firms (generally a dichotomy between big law and small firms).

Second, the ones that do exist do not have SAs or have very small summer classes. For example, in Pittsburgh, out of the five or six midlaw firms, 2 don't have a program and 3 take between 1-2 each year. The firms replenish themselves primarily off of big law laterals.

Third, midlaw is a fantastic outcome (some would argue better than big law because of significantly increased partnership prospects). Many people at T14s that strike out at OCI will be ahead of you for these jobs.
So no, midlaw is not something to settle for.

This this this

I appreciate the response. Helpful information about the midlaw scene. I took the lsat 3 times and my score pretty much stayed the same the second two times, so I think I might be stuck going to a T1 school and shining shoes. Oh well the sun still shines.

Good on you for retaking. Honestly, OP, it was the right decision. But why not wait a year and take the LSAT again when you're eligible? I'm at a lower T14 with $$$ and I knowing what I do now, I wish I waited a year and took a fourth time. Law school will always be there.

[talesofyore]

Honestly, OP, it was the right decision. But why not wait a year and take the LSAT again when you're eligible? I'm at a lower T14 with $$$ and I knowing what I do now, I wish I waited a year and took a fourth time. Law school will always be there.

Isn't this scenario perfectly acceptable by TLS standards? Can you please say why you're dissatisfied with how things turned out?

[hephaestus]

Honestly, OP, it was the right decision. But why not wait a year and take the LSAT again when you're eligible? I'm at a lower T14 with $$$ and I knowing what I do now, I wish I waited a year and took a fourth time. Law school will always be there.

Isn't this scenario perfectly acceptable by TLS standards? Can you please say why you're dissatisfied with how things turned out?

Yes it's a perfectly satisfactory situation. And I am happy with my decision to attend and I really like law school. However, none of that negates that if I waited a year and retook I could be looking less debt from my current school. I took three times but I missed my PT average the third time, and ended up having a good outcome, but not the outcome I knew could be my best.
Objectively, my outcome is good, but that does not mean it cannot be improved.

[talesofyore]

Honestly, OP, it was the right decision. But why not wait a year and take the LSAT again when you're eligible? I'm at a lower T14 with $$$ and I knowing what I do now, I wish I waited a year and took a fourth time. Law school will always be there.

Isn't this scenario perfectly acceptable by TLS standards? Can you please say why you're dissatisfied with how things turned out?

Yes it's a perfectly satisfactory situation. And I am happy with my decision to attend and I really like law school. However, none of that negates that if I waited a year and retook I could be looking less debt from my current school. I took three times but I missed my PT average the third time, and ended up having a good outcome, but not the outcome I knew could be my best.
Objectively, my outcome is good, but that does not mean it cannot be improved.

Okay. I'm in the same situation so far. Got a bad flu (through my own stupidity) and missed my PT average by a lot the third time, and I know it'll cause me to have more debt. Thanks for clarifying.

[hephaestus]

Yeah, sorry if made it sound like I would condemn T14 with money in general. I was PTing 174-75 and ended up with a 169 for dumb reasons. It was my third take so I didn't wait, even though I was working full time and could easily have kept doing that for another year. It is just frustrating to look now and think if I were patient I'd be saving myself between 30-50k in debt.

[talesofyore]

Yeah, sorry if made it sound like I would condemn T14 with money in general. I was PTing 174-75 and ended up with a 169 for dumb reasons. It was my third take so I didn't wait, even though I was working full time and could easily have kept doing that for another year. It is just frustrating to look now and think if I were patient I'd be saving myself between 30-50k in debt.

Maybe I'll be saying the same thing next year, but right now it's full steam ahead for me! In my defense, my job sucks big time.

[timbs4339]

Ok, then how do you explain the 18.5 percent NLJ 250 number? You're saying that one person in the top 20% gets a call back. Where does the rest of the 18.5 percent come from?

Uh...all the firms hire one or two people out of the same group of high acheivers. I thought this was obvious. Regardless, you're proving my point here. They're only hiring from the top quartile. But don't expect Illinois Alum Biglaw Partner to tell you that bit of info.

[09042014]

Wasn't Illinois's NLJ250 number 11% this year?

[arden311]

Ok, then how do you explain the 18.5 percent NLJ 250 number? You're saying that one person in the top 20% gets a call back. Where does the rest of the 18.5 percent come from?

Uh...all the firms hire one or two people out of the same group of high acheivers. I thought this was obvious. Regardless, you're proving my point here. They're only hiring from the top quartile. But don't expect Illinois Alum Biglaw Partner to tell you that bit of info.

Of course! I'm not arguing that you should go to Illinois over Northwestern. That would be silly. Back to my OP, I'm just saying that unless the NLJ 250 numbers drop dramatically, and they very well might and that's what I'm trying to get a feel for, the school's USNews rankings simply don't reflect reality. However, my guess is that a large chunk of this number is people placed in patent law. Illinois is somewhat known for that. So it could be deceptive.

And it's not one or two people, it was 40 people. Better than any Big Ten school save Michigan.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... ctive=true

Wasn't Illinois's NLJ250 number 11% this year?

Where did you get that number?