Before You Post

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Before You Post

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:01 pm

Ben Franklin wrote:
Clearlynotstefan wrote:
Ben Franklin wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote: I guess I'm not sure how your "there are way too many people going to law school" thing coexists with your "TLS is full of snobs who wrongly think non-T14s suck" thing. I mean, you're basically asking schools to get more selective.


Because TLSers, in my opinion, wrongly connect unemployment with people who didn't graduate from a top 14 school. Subsequently they tell people that if they can't get into a top 14 school, they should not go to law school at all! Why? Because they won't be able to find a job. Since there is a shortage of jobs, why encourage someone to take on 3x the amount of student loans by going to these more expensive schools? I'd rather be unemployed owing $75k vs. being unemployed and owing $200k.

The bottom line is schools accept way too many people, we know this, but the snobbery comes in when people encourage others to only go to the best law schools in the country, when in reality some of the most prominent attorneys in this country went to schools out of the top 14, and graduating from a T14 doesn't guarantee any more chance of employment vs lower ranked schools. If someone wants to go to a lower ranked school, hats off to them. They are making a wiser decision to take on less debt, and shouldn't be chastised and belittled for doing so.


There is a lot of data that shows this to be wrong.


No, there isn't. I said GUARANTEE any more chance of employment, which no school can do. Top ranked schools might have a higher proportion of graduates employed, but this is by no means guaranteed. Bottom line is you run the risk of being unemployed 9 mos out of graduation no matter where you go, and where you get your JD from can never GUARANTEE employment.

Top schools do guarantee a higher chance of employment. Guaranteed.

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romothesavior
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Re: Before You Post

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:02 pm

Because TLSers, in my opinion, wrongly connect unemployment with people who didn't graduate from a top 14 school.

Stats dude. Look into em. Even lower T14s boast LST employment scores in the 80-90%+ range and place at least half their classes into biglaw and clerkships. A school like UVA is placing more people into AIII clerkships + biglaw than most T3/T4 schools place into jobs. So yeah... you're an idiot if you think we're wrong to draw the connection between employment outcomes and T14/non-T14s.
Subsequently they tell people that if they can't get into a top 14 school, they should not go to law school at all! Why?
Nope. Complete strawman and not at all what we do around here. See my above post, which you seem to have just ignored. But yes, sometimes (often times) "retake or don't go" is TCR.
Since there is a shortage of jobs, why encourage someone to take on 3x the amount of student loans by going to these more expensive schools? I'd rather be unemployed owing $75k vs. being unemployed and owing $200k.
Wow. Insightful stuff.
in reality some of the most prominent attorneys in this country went to schools out of the top 14
No shit Sherlock. But check this out.
graduating from a T14 doesn't guarantee any more chance of employment vs lower ranked schools.
Id.
If someone wants to go to a lower ranked school, hats off to them. They are making a wiser decision to take on less debt, and shouldn't be chastised and belittled for doing so.
TLS almost universally tells people to avoid all law schools at sticker, save for maybe HYS. I know I do. We consider two things around here, and weigh them almost equally: debt and job placement. Sometimes the debt is so great that even great job placement makes it a questionable investment (say, Northwestern at sticker). Sometimes the job placement is so atrocious that even low debt makes it a bad decision. You have no idea what you're talking about.

As my buddy rad says, keep mowing down them strawmen buddy.

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romothesavior
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Re: Before You Post

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:05 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Ben Franklin wrote:No, there isn't. I said GUARANTEE any more chance of employment, which no school can do. Top ranked schools might have a higher proportion of graduates employed, but this is by no means guaranteed. Bottom line is you run the risk of being unemployed 9 mos out of graduation no matter where you go, and where you get your JD from can never GUARANTEE employment.

Top schools do guarantee a higher chance of employment. Guaranteed.

Of all the stupid shit he just wrote, this may be the stupidest. It's the equivalent of saying "You're just as likely to hit red at a roulette table as you are 7." The man clearly doesn't understand odds.

Ben, when one school has 90% placement and another 10% placement, the one with 90% placement GUARANTEES "more chance of employment."

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boblawlob
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Re: Before You Post

Postby boblawlob » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:10 pm

ITT: Guarantee chance =/= Guarantee outright

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Ben Franklin
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Re: Before You Post

Postby Ben Franklin » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:11 pm

I might have worded my response wrong when I cited the chance of employment when I meant to cite employment. Again, top law schools might have a higher % of their graduates employed when comparing them to lower ranked schools, but employment is far from guaranteed upon graduation no matter where you go. Someone posted a thread recently, I'll look for it. It had data for T14 schools showing a lot of them with around 60% employed in law firms with another 10% or so employed in clerkships. Another 5% or so in other positions that may or may not require a JD. A 75% chance of being employed isn't a guarantee of employment. It's a 75% chance of being employed.

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Ruxin1
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Re: Before You Post

Postby Ruxin1 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:13 pm

Ben Franklin wrote:I might have worded my response wrong when I cited the chance of employment when I meant to cite employment. Again, top law schools might have a higher % of their graduates employed when comparing them to lower ranked schools, but employment is far from guaranteed upon graduation no matter where you go. Someone posted a thread recently, I'll look for it. It had data for T14 schools showing a lot of them with around 60% employed in law firms with another 10% or so employed in clerkships. Another 5% or so in other positions that may or may not require a JD. A 75% chance of being employed isn't a guarantee of employment. It's a 75% chance of being employed.


go on

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Before You Post

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:14 pm

Ben Franklin wrote:I might have worded my response wrong when I cited the chance of employment when I meant to cite employment. Again, top law schools might have a higher % of their graduates employed when comparing them to lower ranked schools, but employment is far from guaranteed upon graduation no matter where you go. Someone posted a thread recently, I'll look for it. It had data for T14 schools showing a lot of them with around 60% employed in law firms with another 10% or so employed in clerkships. Another 5% or so in other positions that may or may not require a JD. A 75% chance of being employed isn't a guarantee of employment. It's a 75% chance of being employed.

Sure. But isn't it better to go to a school that offers a 75% chance of being employed than going to a school that offers a 50% chance of employment? Or don't statistics matter?

(Plus, for some schools it's more than 75%.)

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boblawlob
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Re: Before You Post

Postby boblawlob » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:15 pm

Ben Franklin wrote:I might have worded my response wrong when I cited the chance of employment when I meant to cite employment. Again, top law schools might have a higher % of their graduates employed when comparing them to lower ranked schools, but employment is far from guaranteed upon graduation no matter where you go. Someone posted a thread recently, I'll look for it. It had data for T14 schools showing a lot of them with around 60% employed in law firms with another 10% or so employed in clerkships. Another 5% or so in other positions that may or may not require a JD. A 75% chance of being employed isn't a guarantee of employment. It's a 75% chance of being employed.

Are you talking law firms in general or biglaw specifically?

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Ben Franklin
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Re: Before You Post

Postby Ben Franklin » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:17 pm

Statistics matter to a degree, I won't debate that. But when you are talking about 3x the debt amount for only a 20%-30% more chance of employment, at what point does it begin to be more advantageous to go to a lower ranked law school and just pay the cheaper tuition?

timbs4339
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Re: Before You Post

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:18 pm

Damn Ben, what did strawmen ever do to you?

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romothesavior
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Re: Before You Post

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:20 pm

timbs4339 wrote:Damn Ben, what did strawmen ever do to you?

Seriously.

I'm done. I've entertained his stupid schtick long enough. The dude won't even engage with me and all he does is chop down straw man after straw man.

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Ben Franklin
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Re: Before You Post

Postby Ben Franklin » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:21 pm

boblawlob wrote:
Ben Franklin wrote:I might have worded my response wrong when I cited the chance of employment when I meant to cite employment. Again, top law schools might have a higher % of their graduates employed when comparing them to lower ranked schools, but employment is far from guaranteed upon graduation no matter where you go. Someone posted a thread recently, I'll look for it. It had data for T14 schools showing a lot of them with around 60% employed in law firms with another 10% or so employed in clerkships. Another 5% or so in other positions that may or may not require a JD. A 75% chance of being employed isn't a guarantee of employment. It's a 75% chance of being employed.

Are you talking law firms in general or biglaw specifically?


I can't recall the specifics of the data shared in the post, but I'm pretty sure it did not specify the size of the firm, just being employed in a firm. Also didn't specify what type of clerkship, just that it was a clerkship. If it was biglaw only then the number would be much much lower than 60%.

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Ben Franklin
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Re: Before You Post

Postby Ben Franklin » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:24 pm

romothesavior wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Damn Ben, what did strawmen ever do to you?

Seriously.

I'm done. I've entertained his stupid schtick long enough. The dude won't even engage with me and all he does is chop down straw man after straw man.


I engaged you romo, when I clarified my "chance of employment" statement to mean employment. Yes top law schools guarantee a higher chance of employment, but certainly do not guarantee employment. Again, 3x the debt for only a 20-30% more likelihood of employment? There has to be a point where going to the cheaper law school is actually better. We poker players call it EV. You tell me I only have a 2 in 10 better chance of getting employed if I spend 3x more on tuition, the +EV goes to the cheaper school.

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sinfiery
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Re: Before You Post

Postby sinfiery » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:27 pm

If only USC, UCLA, Vandy, etc cost 90k COA and not basically just as much as the t14

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boblawlob
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Re: Before You Post

Postby boblawlob » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:28 pm

Ben Franklin wrote:Statistics matter to a degree, I won't debate that. But when you are talking about 3x the debt amount for only a 20%-30% more chance of employment, at what point does it begin to be more advantageous to go to a lower ranked law school and just pay the cheaper tuition?

I agree, but then that begs the question of how much lower ranked do u go?

And the thing with the lower ranked schools is that they will have a stipulation (maintain 3.0+) attached to your scholarship (this is almost universal for tier 2s but I'm not sure if many bottom tier 1s do this).

In that case, I'd rather than the 20-30% more chance of employment rather than the chance of me losing that scholarship and paying $$$ for the lower ranked school and still have a tougher time finding a job.

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romothesavior
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Re: Before You Post

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:33 pm

Ben Franklin wrote:I might have worded my response wrong when I cited the chance of employment when I meant to cite employment. Again, top law schools might have a higher % of their graduates employed when comparing them to lower ranked schools, but employment is far from guaranteed upon graduation no matter where you go. Someone posted a thread recently, I'll look for it. It had data for T14 schools showing a lot of them with around 60% employed in law firms with another 10% or so employed in clerkships. Another 5% or so in other positions that may or may not require a JD. A 75% chance of being employed isn't a guarantee of employment. It's a 75% chance of being employed.

So not only do you have no idea what the TLS conventional wisdom is (stawman city over here), you also have no clue what you are talking about when it comes to jobs data. Go figure.

Every T14 school save for Georgetown has higher than a 75% employment score on Law School Transparency, which excludes non-JD jobs and only includes FT/LT jobs. Quite a few are over 90%, and pretty much every T14 places 60-70%+ into big firms and AII clerkships. The bulk of big fed hiring also occurs at T14s.

Again, like I said above, most T14s place more people into big firms and AIII clerkships alone than the average non-T14 law school places into all real lawyering jobs That's a freaking astronomical difference in job placement. Do I think someone should go to GULC or NW or even NYU at sticker? No, probably not. Am I "T14 or bust?" No, I'm not... I tell people to go to lower ranked schools daily and I myself don't go to a T14. But am I willing to tell someone to take on an extra 100k in debt for a 70% chance at biglaw vs. the local T1 school that only places 50% into real legal jobs? Uhh... yes, I am.

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Ben Franklin
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Re: Before You Post

Postby Ben Franklin » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:35 pm

boblawlob wrote:
Ben Franklin wrote:Statistics matter to a degree, I won't debate that. But when you are talking about 3x the debt amount for only a 20%-30% more chance of employment, at what point does it begin to be more advantageous to go to a lower ranked law school and just pay the cheaper tuition?

I agree, but then that begs the question of how much lower ranked do u go?

And the thing with the lower ranked schools is that they will have a stipulation (maintain 3.0+) attached to your scholarship (this is almost universal for tier 2s but I'm not sure if many bottom tier 1s do this).

In that case, I'd rather than the 20-30% more chance of employment rather than the chance of me losing that scholarship and paying $$$ for the lower ranked school and still have a tougher time finding a job.


Good point. I would like to think that most students receiving a scholarship at least consider the chance they could lose it and yes, be stuck with paying full sticker after 1L. But the debate is really overall $$$ owed after school, scholarships aside. If I'm faced with owing 3x (and in some cases 4x) more when I graduate, and I only have a 2 in 10 more shot of being employed, is it worth paying the 300% extra tuition?

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Ben Franklin
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Re: Before You Post

Postby Ben Franklin » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:43 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Ben Franklin wrote:I might have worded my response wrong when I cited the chance of employment when I meant to cite employment. Again, top law schools might have a higher % of their graduates employed when comparing them to lower ranked schools, but employment is far from guaranteed upon graduation no matter where you go. Someone posted a thread recently, I'll look for it. It had data for T14 schools showing a lot of them with around 60% employed in law firms with another 10% or so employed in clerkships. Another 5% or so in other positions that may or may not require a JD. A 75% chance of being employed isn't a guarantee of employment. It's a 75% chance of being employed.

So not only do you have no idea what the TLS conventional wisdom is (stawman city over here), you also have no clue what you are talking about when it comes to jobs data. Go figure.

Every T14 school save for Georgetown has higher than a 75% employment score on Law School Transparency, which excludes non-JD jobs and only includes FT/LT jobs. Quite a few are over 90%, and pretty much every T14 places 60-70%+ into big firms and AII clerkships. The bulk of big fed hiring also occurs at T14s.

Again, like I said above, most T14s place more people into big firms and AIII clerkships alone than the average non-T14 law school places into all real lawyering jobs That's a freaking astronomical difference in job placement. Do I think someone should go to GULC or NW or even NYU at sticker? No, probably not. Am I "T14 or bust?" No, I'm not... I tell people to go to lower ranked schools daily and I myself don't go to a T14. But am I willing to tell someone to take on an extra 100k in debt for a 70% chance at biglaw vs. the local T1 school that only places 50% into real legal jobs? Uhh... yes, I am.


You make a good argument, and I never singled you out individually. But consider that we are arguing over the effectiveness in placement of FOURTEEN law schools. FOURTEEN out of how many? And you make the mention of biglaw, but people overthink biglaw way too much. Why? Because you do not need to be employed in biglaw to make your debt serviceable. Yes we all want to make the big bucks, but reality is $50-$60-$70k/yr can pay a $1000/mo student loan payment. You might not have too much cash to blow, but serviceable nonetheless. Ok, cool, you have a better shot at biglaw. But is it biglaw or bust? It shouldn't be, when a mediocre job placement can service your debt.

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romothesavior
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Re: Before You Post

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:58 pm

Ben Franklin wrote:You make a good argument, and I never singled you out individually. But consider that we are arguing over the effectiveness in placement of FOURTEEN law schools. FOURTEEN out of how many? And you make the mention of biglaw, but people overthink biglaw way too much. Why? Because you do not need to be employed in biglaw to make your debt serviceable. Yes we all want to make the big bucks, but reality is $50-$60-$70k/yr can pay a $1000/mo student loan payment. You might not have too much cash to blow, but serviceable nonetheless. Ok, cool, you have a better shot at biglaw. But is it biglaw or bust? It shouldn't be, when a mediocre job placement can service your debt.

Which is why we tell people that going to a local school with a decent reputation and decent job prospects for minimal debt is the right decision in many circumstances. Your idea of what TLS is about is way off base. And nobody said it's biglaw or bust. My point is that you are vastly, vastly, vastly underestimating the difference in job prospects between State U and even a lower-T14. To pretend its a marginal difference is just ludicrous.

As for the "we are arguing over the effectiveness in placement of FOURTEEN law schools," umm... yeah duder. That's because there is a pretty clear dropoff in placement after the top 14 schools, and taking on six-figures of debt becomes becomes pretty difficult to advocate for past that point. That's why the T14 is important. But again, no one on this site seriously advocates for "T14 or bust" and is taken seriously. You are arguing with a boogeyman that doesn't exist.

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Clearly
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Re: Before You Post

Postby Clearly » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:02 am

Ben Franklin wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Ben Franklin wrote:I might have worded my response wrong when I cited the chance of employment when I meant to cite employment. Again, top law schools might have a higher % of their graduates employed when comparing them to lower ranked schools, but employment is far from guaranteed upon graduation no matter where you go. Someone posted a thread recently, I'll look for it. It had data for T14 schools showing a lot of them with around 60% employed in law firms with another 10% or so employed in clerkships. Another 5% or so in other positions that may or may not require a JD. A 75% chance of being employed isn't a guarantee of employment. It's a 75% chance of being employed.

So not only do you have no idea what the TLS conventional wisdom is (stawman city over here), you also have no clue what you are talking about when it comes to jobs data. Go figure.

Every T14 school save for Georgetown has higher than a 75% employment score on Law School Transparency, which excludes non-JD jobs and only includes FT/LT jobs. Quite a few are over 90%, and pretty much every T14 places 60-70%+ into big firms and AII clerkships. The bulk of big fed hiring also occurs at T14s.

Again, like I said above, most T14s place more people into big firms and AIII clerkships alone than the average non-T14 law school places into all real lawyering jobs That's a freaking astronomical difference in job placement. Do I think someone should go to GULC or NW or even NYU at sticker? No, probably not. Am I "T14 or bust?" No, I'm not... I tell people to go to lower ranked schools daily and I myself don't go to a T14. But am I willing to tell someone to take on an extra 100k in debt for a 70% chance at biglaw vs. the local T1 school that only places 50% into real legal jobs? Uhh... yes, I am.


You make a good argument, and I never singled you out individually. But consider that we are arguing over the effectiveness in placement of FOURTEEN law schools. FOURTEEN out of how many? And you make the mention of biglaw, but people overthink biglaw way too much. Why? Because you do not need to be employed in biglaw to make your debt serviceable. Yes we all want to make the big bucks, but reality is $50-$60-$70k/yr can pay a $1000/mo student loan payment. You might not have too much cash to blow, but serviceable nonetheless. Ok, cool, you have a better shot at biglaw. But is it biglaw or bust? It shouldn't be, when a mediocre job placement can service your debt.


Image

Those jobs don't exist. It's basically either 35-50k or 160k. As a fellow 0L, You really, really should learn to listen to and value the opinions of the current and former law students, and the data they keep presenting, instead of speculating.

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Ben Franklin
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Re: Before You Post

Postby Ben Franklin » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:14 am

Clearlynotstefan wrote:
Ben Franklin wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Ben Franklin wrote:I might have worded my response wrong when I cited the chance of employment when I meant to cite employment. Again, top law schools might have a higher % of their graduates employed when comparing them to lower ranked schools, but employment is far from guaranteed upon graduation no matter where you go. Someone posted a thread recently, I'll look for it. It had data for T14 schools showing a lot of them with around 60% employed in law firms with another 10% or so employed in clerkships. Another 5% or so in other positions that may or may not require a JD. A 75% chance of being employed isn't a guarantee of employment. It's a 75% chance of being employed.

So not only do you have no idea what the TLS conventional wisdom is (stawman city over here), you also have no clue what you are talking about when it comes to jobs data. Go figure.

Every T14 school save for Georgetown has higher than a 75% employment score on Law School Transparency, which excludes non-JD jobs and only includes FT/LT jobs. Quite a few are over 90%, and pretty much every T14 places 60-70%+ into big firms and AII clerkships. The bulk of big fed hiring also occurs at T14s.

Again, like I said above, most T14s place more people into big firms and AIII clerkships alone than the average non-T14 law school places into all real lawyering jobs That's a freaking astronomical difference in job placement. Do I think someone should go to GULC or NW or even NYU at sticker? No, probably not. Am I "T14 or bust?" No, I'm not... I tell people to go to lower ranked schools daily and I myself don't go to a T14. But am I willing to tell someone to take on an extra 100k in debt for a 70% chance at biglaw vs. the local T1 school that only places 50% into real legal jobs? Uhh... yes, I am.


You make a good argument, and I never singled you out individually. But consider that we are arguing over the effectiveness in placement of FOURTEEN law schools. FOURTEEN out of how many? And you make the mention of biglaw, but people overthink biglaw way too much. Why? Because you do not need to be employed in biglaw to make your debt serviceable. Yes we all want to make the big bucks, but reality is $50-$60-$70k/yr can pay a $1000/mo student loan payment. You might not have too much cash to blow, but serviceable nonetheless. Ok, cool, you have a better shot at biglaw. But is it biglaw or bust? It shouldn't be, when a mediocre job placement can service your debt.


Those jobs don't exist. It's basically either 35-50k or 160k. As a fellow 0L, You really, really should learn to listen to and value the opinions of the current and former law students, and the data they keep presenting, instead of speculating.


I'm not speculating. I work in a law firm, have close to a dozen friends who have graduated from law school in the last 3 years (all but one employed btw), and never pass on an opportunity to pick the brain of recent law grads when I see them around town (courthouse, golf course, etc). I've seen LST, and the numbers they show. I value everyones input, but hate seeing cynical advice given out. Bottom line is I just hate seeing someone encouraged to only go to the best schools or don't go, especially when those top schools are so damn expensive. Romo is 100% right with the position that one should try to go to the best school they can for as little as they can, and if someone can go to state U and walk away owing less than $80k, do it. Getting a scholarship? Even better. But they shouldn't be told that they shouldn't go to law school because they are considering a lower ranked law school.

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romothesavior
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Re: Before You Post

Postby romothesavior » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:17 am

Ben Franklin wrote:Bottom line is I just hate seeing someone encouraged to only go to the best schools or don't go

For the third (or is it fourth?) time, WE OFTEN TELL PEOPLE TO GO TO THE LOCAL/CHEAPER/LESS HIGHLY-RANKED SCHOOL FOR CHEAP. JFC you are one dense human being.

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Re: Before You Post

Postby rad lulz » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:20 am

Ben Franklin wrote:But they shouldn't be told that they shouldn't go to law school because they are considering a lower ranked law school.

None of use have been discussing rankings

Keep mowin down them straw men dood

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RELIC
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Re: Before You Post

Postby RELIC » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:21 am

Ben Franklin you are ignoring that there is a trap in the middle schools. A ton of people will go to GW or Fordham at full sticker because they perceive these schools to be highly ranked and they got only a very small scholarship from their local state school. The problem is that outside of t14 the rankings drop off and become meaningless. Fordham at sticker is a bad idea. Sure it will work out for some but it really can't be justified as a good economic choice. TLS's T14/T6/HYS or bust mentality is aimed at tempering people's over reliance on the rankings when it comes to these middle traps.

P.S. The "middle" is a different place for different applicants and it largely depends on your stats.
Last edited by RELIC on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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franklyscarlet
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Re: Before You Post

Postby franklyscarlet » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:24 am

Ben Franklin wrote:I'm not speculating. I work in a law firm, have close to a dozen friends who have graduated from law school in the last 3 years (all but one employed btw), and never pass on an opportunity to pick the brain of recent law grads when I see them around town (courthouse, golf course, etc).


oh sweetie. "I've met lawyers" is not helping your case.




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