Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

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cinnamonchurros
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby cinnamonchurros » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:02 pm

PRgradBYU wrote: What if I'm comfortable and happy attending Cooley for sticker?



Cooley's #2 right now. The dean said so. :roll: If you're comfortable attending Cooley for sticker, you're comfortable with success, my friend.

EDIT: Sorry, he said #2. He's even more humble than I thought. :lol:
Last edited by cinnamonchurros on Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby rickgrimes69 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:04 pm

beachbum wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:But no, I don't think personal fit really should outweigh money, or considering where a school has stronger placement. When all else is equal, sure; if you're fine with either the south or the midwest, and you're choosing between Duke and Michigan, sure, go with which one feels better. But if you know you want the south, I don't think you can say Michigan is going to give you the same opportunities as Duke. That doesn't mean you can't get to the south from Michigan, just that it's tougher.


Making that distinction between Duke and Michigan (or similar schools) is like parsing AIII placement, though. Unless you do incredibly well, Duke is probably not going to open up markets that Michigan couldn't open, and vice versa. If you're indifferent between Duke and Michigan and think you may want to work in the south then, sure, go to Duke - it can't hurt. But if you have a real intention of working in the south, then don't attend Duke over Michigan for the purpose of fulfilling that desire - because it probably ain't gonna happen.


What are you even talking about. Duke loves the South, and vice versa. Duke will absolutely, no question place better in the South than Michigan, especially for those who don't have previous ties. I agree that without ties, it's an uphill battle either way, but at Michigan you can pretty much kiss that dream goodbye. Duke at least gives you a chance.

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that part of the reason Michigan's placement has suffered so badly compared to Duke's is that Duke has the Southern markets to fall back on. Plus, self-selection is a big factor - for all the talk about how Duke is NYC focused (it is), I still know plenty of kids that have no interest in targeting NYC/DC/Chicago and are only gunning for Southern markets.
Last edited by rickgrimes69 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cinnamonchurros
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby cinnamonchurros » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:06 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:What are you even talking about. Duke loves the south, and vice versa. Duke will absolutely, no question place better in the south than Michigan, especially for those who don't have previous ties.

I agree that without ties, it's an uphill battle either way, but at Michigan you can pretty much kiss that dream goodbye. Duke at least gives you a chance.



Absolutely. You definitely have to factor in ties and location, even within the T-14.

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beachbum
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby beachbum » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:43 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:What are you even talking about. Duke loves the South, and vice versa. Duke will absolutely, no question place better in the South than Michigan, especially for those who don't have previous ties. I agree that without ties, it's an uphill battle either way, but at Michigan you can pretty much kiss that dream goodbye. Duke at least gives you a chance.


So you're saying there's a chance. In all seriousness, this is incredibly misleading. (And aren't you a 1L?) Duke places better than Michigan in the south for those Duke students who perform well. Hence my comparison to AIII placement. If you're top 10% in your class with no ties to the south, then, yes, your chances in Atlanta are going to be much better from Duke than from Michigan. But, again, we're talking about a small portion of the class - which is why, if you feel strongly about Michigan (in terms of personal fit), you absolutely shouldn't go with Duke simply because you want to work in the south.

If you have ties to the south, feel free to attend either Duke or Michigan. If you don't have ties, it's probably best to acknowledge that a) you need to establish ties pre-law school, or b) you probably won't be working in the south. If you attend Duke because - hey, now I can work in Charlotte! - then I have some land I'd like to sell you.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:57 pm

beachbum wrote:Making that distinction between Duke and Michigan (or similar schools) is like parsing AIII placement, though. Unless you do incredibly well, Duke is probably not going to open up markets that Michigan couldn't open, and vice versa. If you're indifferent between Duke and Michigan and think you may want to work in the south then, sure, go to Duke - it can't hurt. But if you have a real intention of working in the south, then don't attend Duke over Michigan for the purpose of fulfilling that desire - because it probably ain't gonna happen. Which is why I think fit should take precedence over geography within the T14. (Of course, this is all on a sliding scale. The less strongly you feel about fit, the more emphasis you can put on geography. But if one school seems like a great personal fit, then go ahead and attend that school.)
beachbum wrote:So you're saying there's a chance. In all seriousness, this is incredibly misleading. (And aren't you a 1L?) Duke places better than Michigan in the south for those Duke students who perform well. Hence my comparison to AIII placement. If you're top 10% in your class with no ties to the south, then, yes, your chances in Atlanta are going to be much better from Duke than from Michigan. But, again, we're talking about a small portion of the class - which is why, if you feel strongly about Michigan (in terms of personal fit), you absolutely shouldn't go with Duke simply because you want to work in the south.

If you have ties to the south, feel free to attend either Duke or Michigan. If you don't have ties, it's probably best to acknowledge that a) you need to establish ties pre-law school, or b) you probably won't be working in the south. If you attend Duke because - hey, now I can work in Charlotte! - then I have some land I'd like to sell you.

Okay, I guess I'm incredibly confused. So you're saying Duke only opens up the south more than Michigan does if you do well at Duke? So where do people at Duke who don't have federal clerkship-level stats go? And you're saying that someone who does equally well at Michigan has as good a shot in the south? These are honest questions - I really just don't understand what you're saying (I also didn't go to a T14, so you can chalk my ignorance up to that if you like). And now you're talking about ties - how does this relate to your personal fit argument? It sounds like this is something that has nothing to do with personal fit that's actually really important.

Also, alumni networks have nothing to do with personal fit. Alumni networks are really important for, again, gauging your placement potential on getting out of law school. Alumni loyalty to a school for anything else is purely a tool for getting money. A university is not your family and you're not joining some mythical community by choosing it - except to the extent that it opens doors to people who can hire you or introduce you to people who can.

(As for weather and sports teams - to each their own, but for me, those are not reasons to choose one school over another, unless absolutely everything else is equal. And it never really is.)

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beachbum
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby beachbum » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:10 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Okay, I guess I'm incredibly confused. So you're saying Duke only opens up the south more than Michigan does if you do well at Duke?

Generally, yes.
So where do people at Duke who don't have federal clerkship-level stats go?

Where anyone else from a T14 goes? New York? DC? Wherever they have ties?
And you're saying that someone who does equally well at Michigan has as good a shot in the south?

With solid ties to the south, sure. For example, if you're from Atlanta and you're top 25% at your T14, it's not going to make much difference whether that T14 is Duke or Michigan.
And now you're talking about ties - how does this relate to your personal fit argument? It sounds like this is something that has nothing to do with personal fit that's actually really important.

This discussion is an offshoot of my argument that geography in the T14 isn't nearly as big a deal as some on TLS seem to believe, and that there's a strong argument for valuing personal fit over geography. (Again, though, I'll refer you to my sliding scale: the more evenly matched two schools are in terms of personal fit, the more weight you can place on geography.) I'm not sure where the confusion is here.
Also, alumni networks have nothing to do with personal fit. Alumni networks are really important for, again, gauging your placement potential on getting out of law school. Alumni loyalty to a school for anything else is purely a tool for getting money. A university is not your family and you're not joining some mythical community by choosing it - except to the extent that it opens doors to people who can hire you or introduce you to people who can.

I've had a great experience with my alumni network, and I anticipate being involved in it one way or another in the future - and for more than simple career progression. (It's also unclear why alumni networks have nothing to do with personal fit, but geographic placement does...). In any case, the Duke alums I've spoken with are the kind of people I'd enjoy grabbing a beer and watching a basketball game with; I like to think they're more than just tools for making money.
Last edited by beachbum on Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby rickgrimes69 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:11 pm

beachbum wrote:Duke places better than Michigan in the south for those Duke students who perform well. Hence my comparison to AIII placement. If you're top 10% in your class with no ties to the south, then, yes, your chances in Atlanta are going to be much better from Duke than from Michigan.


But, again, we're talking about a small portion of the class - which is why, if you feel strongly about Michigan (in terms of personal fit), you absolutely shouldn't go with Duke simply because you want to work in the south.


You are being super confusing about your position. Duke places better than Michigan in the South, but not for most students, so nobody should attend Duke if they want the South? What?

I said pretty clearly that targeting the South without ties is an uphill battle. But targeting the South from Michigan without ties is pretty much a foregone conclusion, whereas Duke at least gives you a chance. What is your problem with that statement? Because, by all accounts, it seems like you're agreeing with me.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:15 pm

And you're saying that someone who does equally well at Michigan has as good a shot in the south?

With solid ties to the south, sure. For example, if you're from Atlanta and you're top 25% at your T14, it's not going to make much difference whether that T14 is Duke or Michigan.

Okay, but how are ties personal fit? Aren't they something you have to consider apart from personal fit? So it's one thing to say, "go where there's fit," and another to say, "go where you have fit if you have ties to the market you ultimately want to work in."

beachbum wrote:I've had a great experience with my alumni network, and I anticipate being involved in it one way or another in the future - and for more than simple career progression. (It's also unclear why alumni networks have nothing to do with personal fit, but geographic placement does...). In any case, the Duke alums I've spoken with are the kind of people I'd enjoy grabbing a beer and watching a basketball game with; I like to think they're more than just tools for making money.

Actually, I never said that either alumni networks or geographic placement have anything to do with personal fit - they're all being balanced against each other in this discussion, leading me to think they're distinct things. I certainly wasn't calling geographic placement part of personal fit; that was my whole point, you have to think about geographic placement before/apart from thinking about fit.

And as for the bolded: that's exactly what Duke wants you to think.

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beachbum
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby beachbum » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:22 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:You are being super confusing about your position. Duke places better than Michigan in the South, but not for most students, so nobody should attend Duke if they want the South? What?

I said pretty clearly that targeting the South without ties is an uphill battle. But targeting the South from Michigan without ties is pretty much a foregone conclusion, whereas Duke at least gives you a chance. What is your problem with that statement? Because, by all accounts, it seems like you're agreeing with me.


You're misconstruing my argument, but I'll try to be more clear.

I am agreeing with you, at least on that statement. At the top of the class, you will almost definitely have better southern prospects coming out of Duke than you would coming out of Michigan. My argument is that that's a poor reason for valuing one school over another - because your chances of realizing that benefit are, to put it charitably, not good. So, if you are much more comfortable at Michigan than you are at Duke, go ahead and pick Michigan. Do not, in other words, pick Duke simply because you want to work in the south - because your chances of actually working in the south are still going to be poor. On the other hand, if the two schools are roughly equal in terms of personal fit, then go ahead and pick Duke, because you might as well.

Again, my argument goes to weight - TLS tends to weight geography too heavily in the T14, and personal fit too lightly.

An even more extreme example might be legal academia. By your logic, one should choose Penn over Duke if one wants to be a law professor, because Penn has better placement in legal academia. I'm saying that, because that outcome is unlikely from either school, it's foolish to choose one school over another just by that metric. Although if all else is equal, then, hell, might as well go to Penn.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:24 pm

But is getting a job in "the south," broadly construed, from Duke really as difficult as getting legal academia from anywhere besides Yale (and maybe Harvard)?

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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby beachbum » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:28 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Okay, but how are ties personal fit? Aren't they something you have to consider apart from personal fit? So it's one thing to say, "go where there's fit," and another to say, "go where you have fit if you have ties to the market you ultimately want to work in."


Ties are not personal fit. I'm not sure why this is still confusing.


Actually, I never said that either alumni networks or geographic placement have anything to do with personal fit - they're all being balanced against each other in this discussion, leading me to think they're distinct things. I certainly wasn't calling geographic placement part of personal fit; that was my whole point, you have to think about geographic placement before/apart from thinking about fit.


A. Nony Mouse wrote:And I think personal fit has to encompass confidence in your future placement in the region where you want to work

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beachbum
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby beachbum » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:30 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:But is getting a job in "the south," broadly construed, from Duke really as difficult as getting legal academia from anywhere besides Yale (and maybe Harvard)?


Jesus dude. Hence the qualifier "an even more extreme example." Working in the south is very unlikely; becoming a law professor is very, very unlikely.

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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:35 pm

beachbum wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:But is getting a job in "the south," broadly construed, from Duke really as difficult as getting legal academia from anywhere besides Yale (and maybe Harvard)?


Jesus dude. Hence the qualifier "an even more extreme example." Working in the south is very unlikely; becoming a law professor is very, very unlikely.


You're right. Texas has no jerbs. Stay away.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby rickgrimes69 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:44 pm

beachbum wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:But is getting a job in "the south," broadly construed, from Duke really as difficult as getting legal academia from anywhere besides Yale (and maybe Harvard)?


Jesus dude. Hence the qualifier "an even more extreme example." Working in the south is very unlikely; becoming a law professor is very, very unlikely.


Ok, but you're using a strawman to illustrate your point, and pretty much nullifying it in the process. Getting a job in academia from Penn is about a thousand times more difficult (to use an "extreme" example) than getting the South from Duke, even without ties.

If I understand your argument, you basically think fit is more important than geography, all else equal. I would disagree with that statement.

If somebody wants to target the South without ties, you are correct in saying they would be remiss to count on it. But you don't have to be top 10% to take advantage of Duke's ties to the South. There are simply more Southern opportunities presented to Duke students - heck, we even had a whole mini-OCI for 1Ls, mostly comprised of Southern firms. It's silly to think you will only be advantaged by Duke's Southern ties if you are in the top 10% (I'd actually argue by that point, it doesn't really matter where you go, and you have a decent chance to get whatever you want, wherever you want it).
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Davidbentley
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby Davidbentley » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:46 pm

I like this thread because there is absolutely zero hyperbole within it.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:57 pm

beachbum wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:And I think personal fit has to encompass confidence in your future placement in the region where you want to work

I said that in a different part of the conversation because you seemed to be treating them as completely distinct. Based on you treating them as completely distinct, I would disagree that you can weigh personal fit even equally with geographic placement, ties, or other things that actually influence getting a job. I think you can only make the argument that personal fit is as important as you seem to want to argue if you broaden what personal fit actually means.

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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:58 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:You're right. Texas California has no jerbs. Stay away.

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beachbum
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Re: Advice From a 3L on Choosing a Law School

Postby beachbum » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:00 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:Ok, but you're using a strawman to illustrate your point, and pretty much nullifying it in the process. Getting a job in academia from Penn is about a thousand times more difficult (to use an "extreme" example) than getting the South from Duke, even without ties.

If I understand your argument, you basically think fit is more important than geography, all else equal. I would disagree with that statement.

If somebody wants to target the South without ties, you are correct in saying they would be remiss to count on it. But you don't have to be top 10% to take advantage of Duke's ties to the South. There are simply more Southern opportunities presented to Duke students - heck, we even had a whole mini-OCI for 1Ls, mostly comprised of Southern firms. It's silly to think you will only be advantaged by Duke's Southern ties if you are in the top 10% (I'd actually argue by that point, it doesn't really matter where you go, and you have a decent chance to get whatever you want, wherever you want it).


I'm not just saying they shouldn't count on finding a southern job - I'm saying it should be a fairly distant consideration, certainly after cost and personal fit.

I'm familiar with 1L OCI; two of my buddies actually got jobs with southern firms through that process. Both of them have strong southern ties. In fact, now that OCI/the recruiting process is completed, I can't think of a single person off the top of my head who is working in the south and who doesn't have southern ties. Can I put an exact cutoff on when grades take precedence over southern ties? No; I don't have full information, and I'm sure there's always going to be outliers. But I'm fairly confident it's high enough to foreclose southern placement from being used as a strong criteria in choosing a law school.




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