Boston College vs. Seton Hall Forum

[thethe]

Don't you think "dominate" is a little bit of an overstatement? I feel like top 30% at Seton Hall would lead to a good job in NJ.

Define "good job"

Walking away with at least $40/hour for at least 40 hours a week pre-tax post average loan-repayment contributions without having to do anything too ethically sketchy.

[romothesavior]

Walking away with at least $40/hour for at least 40 hours a week pre-tax post average loan-repayment contributions without having to do anything too ethically sketchy.

$80,000+ from Seton Hall? A very small percentage of SH grads will make anywhere close to that. It would be completely unrealistic to expect that.

Less than 10% of SH grads ended up full-time in firms over 25 attorneys (and many of those are going to be shit jobs). Almost a third ended up in "state and local clerkships," which I guess is a big thing in NJ and might lead to a decent job, but a lot won't. Only 5% landed government and PI (only 3 people got FT/LT public interest jobs out of almost 300 students).

So... yeah. Low risk for Rascal due to the cost, but don't delude yourself into think you're going to get a good job. And at top 30%? Good luck with that.

[thethe]

Walking away with at least $40/hour for at least 40 hours a week pre-tax post average loan-repayment contributions without having to do anything too ethically sketchy.

$80,000+ from Seton Hall? A very small percentage of SH grads will make anywhere close to that. It would be completely unrealistic to expect that.

Less than 10% of SH grads ended up full-time in firms over 25 attorneys (and many of those are going to be shit jobs). Almost a third ended up in "state and local clerkships," which I guess is a big thing in NJ and might lead to a decent job, but a lot won't. Only 5% landed government and PI (only 3 people got FT/LT public interest jobs out of almost 300 students).

So... yeah. Low risk for Rascal due to the cost, but don't delude yourself into think you're going to get a good job. And at top 30%? Good luck with that.

Hence, my saying they need to dominate.

80k+ isn't a lot to hope for for a profession requiring 7 years of schooling, 3 of which are intensive, a relatively high IQ and a ton of specific knowledge in addition to strong interpersonal skills.

That's why people need to be really smart about where they go.

Even short of law school debt, the commitment is very large.

[romothesavior]

Yeah I gotcha, we agree. I was mostly addressing that towards DaRascal because he doesn't seem to have a clue what he's talking about.

[thethe]

The I'd be happy with 40k thing is insane. It's not that hard to make 40k. I'd venture to say everyone who gets into any law school of the non-Cooley type law schools can easily do this with some hustle and not doing dumb crap. It might take them a year or 2 to get there, but any of these kids can if they lost their fear of starting from scratch in the real world. The real world is not all that tough in our beta country.

Real world with a ton of debt = tough.

Making 100k+ = tough.

Going to law school to take out debt and make 40k = prob. one of the worst life plans possible.

The applicants who say they are fine going to a TTTT for a small chance at a 40k job, because that's all they need to be happy seem to generally be desperate out-of-college insecure "need to do something so people don't think I'm a loser" kinds of people. It is desperate behavior. Law is not a bad profession, but it's not like you're announcing sports games for living or writing fantasy football articles. It's a legitimately tough job, and becoming a lawyer is a lot of work.

It strikes me as similar to someone whose girlfriend says to them, "I think we should see other people, but should stay friends and by friends I mean you will be there for me whenever I need to complain about men I am dating, but I owe you no such obligation" and the guy accepts, even continues to pay for her on these excursions. That's the TTTT kid who goes but is aware of the situation. "Yeah, I know it's a lot of debt. Yeah, I know best case scenario is I live a low quality of life. Yeah, I know I won't be rich. Yeah, I know it will be really crappy work. But I don't need to have a happy life to be happy."

It's gotta be some kind of DSM disorder.

[DaRascal]

Don't you think "dominate" is a little bit of an overstatement? I feel like top 30% at Seton Hall would lead to a good job in NJ.

Define "good job"

A position at a Top NJ firm (e.g. McCarter). I haven't checked LawSchoolTransparency but I've heard for a long time that Seton Hall has an excellent reputation with the state's top firms so I figure that maybe getting a job at those firms would be comparable to what it'd take to get biglaw out of BC.

Definitely headed to Seton Hall though. Feeling supremely confident!

[stillwater]

Don't you think "dominate" is a little bit of an overstatement? I feel like top 30% at Seton Hall would lead to a good job in NJ.

Define "good job"

A position at a Top NJ firm (e.g. McCarter). I haven't checked LawSchoolTransparency but I've heard for a long time that Seton Hall has an excellent reputation with the state's top firms so I figure that maybe getting a job at those firms would be comparable to what it'd take to get biglaw out of BC.

Definitely headed to Seton Hall though. Feeling supremely confident!

uh no. top 10% max would have an outcome like that. probably much less than 10% . other people who are from NJ fight for those jobs. SH's placement in NLJ250 firms is an abysmal 7-8%. BC's is 20%+. 2008 changed the game and that SH has a great rep in NJ is not only false I think but of a different era. Just make sure you understand the actual employment outlook before you pull the trigger. I am not saying it is not hte right decision for you- shudder- but you should understand the realities before jumping in headlong.

[Nova]

I haven't checked LawSchoolTransparency but I've heard for a long time that Seton Hall has an excellent reputation with ...

700+ on topic posts and you haven't picked apart the LST page of the school you plan to attend? COME ON MAN!

[Nova]

DaRacal, have you considered retaking in june?

Seton Hall is a dump.

Lol. Is dre the stillwater of UCI, or is stillwater the dre of SH? I guess dre is the stillwater of UCI because you were here first.

BC is absolutely crazy here. Why this vote is close, I have no idea.

0Ls + USNWR lemmings

[DaRascal]

Haha yeah, Nova, guess I've been slacking. Just checked and now I see what everyone is saying.
I've thought about retaking but I just don't think it'll be worth it for me. For one, I have about $20k in undergrad loans that are probably more like $30k by now and would have to start paying immediately if I didn't go to law school now. I also don't know that I can raise my score to the high 160 range. I think it'd be too much of a gamble to take a year off for something that might not happen. And, even if it does, I can't even feel confident that it'd get me into a T14 with scholarship money. I mean I can't even get into Fordham right now.

The way things are, I'm thinking I'll put my deposit down at Seton Hall and see what waitlists I come off of. I just don't think anything short of T6 is worth it at sticker anymore and I'm probably not getting T6. I'd honestly rather chance it at Seton Hall and hope for top 10% than go some place at sticker where I'd have to be in the 60% at worst and then have to spend the next 3-4 years afterwards paying back those loans working in a job that everyone says is miserable.

[Nova]

Retake in June could get you money at BC and off wait lists this cycle.

I regret not retaking the June before matriculating, and if I could go back, there's no doubt that giving it one last shot would be worth it. Even if just for peace of mind.

[DaRascal]

I'll think about a retake but I don't see how it can help me.... I'm starting to think Seton Hall full ride really is the promised land.

I'd be happy in NJ and not saddled down with debt and if I somehow got some miracle grades and got biglaw out of SH I could gauge for myself whether it's something I could enjoy as opposed to having to go to school with the pressure of 150k+ in loans and then needing biglaw to pay them off.

[Homelandsagreatshow]

and if I somehow got some miracle grades and got biglaw out of SH I could gauge for myself whether it's something I could enjoy as opposed to having to go to school with the pressure of 150k+ in loans and then needing biglaw to pay them off.

really?.....really??

[romothesavior]

I haven't checked LawSchoolTransparency but I've heard for a long time that Seton Hall has an excellent reputation with ...

700+ on topic posts and you haven't picked apart the LST page of the school you plan to attend? COME ON MAN!

Not surprised at all. Take a look at his posting history to see what we're dealing with.

Rascal, again, I'll repeat: 9% into firms over 25. So... yeah, top 30%? Enjoy traffic court.

[DaRascal]

Yeah dude but Seton Hall's free. My only options are sticker at a better school or a T2 free ride. Can't be paying sticker anywhere because it'll take me until my early 30's to pay it back and I've gotta bring home the babe and raise a family!


Besides, those clerkships don't seem too bad. Maybe if I do well enough I can clerk for the NJ Superior Court.

[romothesavior]

I hear you, and I think Seton Hall for free is better than sticker at BC. But the fact that you are about to make the biggest career and investment decision of your life and you haven't even done your homework, and you don't have even remotely realistic outcome expectations, makes it really hard to take you seriously.

You wanna go this year? Fine. Seton Hall it is. But your odds of getting a "good job" as you've defined them is unlikely. Just don't delude yourself going in.

[thethe]

I hear you, and I think Seton Hall for free is better than sticker at BC. But the fact that you are about to make the biggest career and investment decision of your life and you haven't even done your homework, and you don't have even remotely realistic outcome expectations, makes it really hard to take you seriously.

You wanna go this year? Fine. Seton Hall it is. But your odds of getting a "good job" as you've defined them is unlikely. Just don't delude yourself going in.

Hmmmmmm idk if it's better.

They're both bad.

I think section stacking makes BC, though bad, less bad because section stacking and school rank will fully depress his odds of a good job. He'll need 5% - section stacking will reduce that likelihood because they're going to put him with all 3.6+ 160+ students. The LSAT isn't fully predictive, but it has some predictive ability even though schools have tiny ranges of scores. You gotta imagine the average full ride kid will do much better on the curve than the average sticker student so it kills him. BC is bad, but at least he's not virtually guaranteed to waste 3 years.

[stillwater]

I hear you, and I think Seton Hall for free is better than sticker at BC. But the fact that you are about to make the biggest career and investment decision of your life and you haven't even done your homework, and you don't have even remotely realistic outcome expectations, makes it really hard to take you seriously.

You wanna go this year? Fine. Seton Hall it is. But your odds of getting a "good job" as you've defined them is unlikely. Just don't delude yourself going in.

shitlaw looms bro

[DaRascal]

I hear you, and I think Seton Hall for free is better than sticker at BC. But the fact that you are about to make the biggest career and investment decision of your life and you haven't even done your homework, and you don't have even remotely realistic outcome expectations, makes it really hard to take you seriously.

You wanna go this year? Fine. Seton Hall it is. But your odds of getting a "good job" as you've defined them is unlikely. Just don't delude yourself going in.

Hmmmmmm idk if it's better.

They're both bad.

I think section stacking makes BC, though bad, less bad because section stacking and school rank will fully depress his odds of a good job. He'll need 5% - section stacking will reduce that likelihood because they're going to put him with all 3.6+ 160+ students. The LSAT isn't fully predictive, but it has some predictive ability even though schools have tiny ranges of scores. You gotta imagine the average full ride kid will do much better on the curve than the average sticker student so it kills him. BC is bad, but at least he's not virtually guaranteed to waste 3 years.

Come on! Stop saying things! I was happy with going to Seton Hall until you said all this.
Now I'm feeling like I need to come off a T14 WL and take out a huge amount of loans. Someone please convince me that Seton Hall is the right choice again. Pleeeeassssee

[stillwater]

I hear you, and I think Seton Hall for free is better than sticker at BC. But the fact that you are about to make the biggest career and investment decision of your life and you haven't even done your homework, and you don't have even remotely realistic outcome expectations, makes it really hard to take you seriously.

You wanna go this year? Fine. Seton Hall it is. But your odds of getting a "good job" as you've defined them is unlikely. Just don't delude yourself going in.

Hmmmmmm idk if it's better.

They're both bad.

I think section stacking makes BC, though bad, less bad because section stacking and school rank will fully depress his odds of a good job. He'll need 5% - section stacking will reduce that likelihood because they're going to put him with all 3.6+ 160+ students. The LSAT isn't fully predictive, but it has some predictive ability even though schools have tiny ranges of scores. You gotta imagine the average full ride kid will do much better on the curve than the average sticker student so it kills him. BC is bad, but at least he's not virtually guaranteed to waste 3 years.

Come on! Stop saying things! I was happy with going to Seton Hall until you said all this.
Now I'm feeling like I need to come off a T14 WL and take out a huge amount of loans. Someone please convince me that Seton Hall is the right choice again. Pleeeeassssee

SH is never the right choice.

[DaRascal]

It's the Heart of Legal Opportunity.


I've now rationalized going though. Just need to bust ass and do well, get a nice 60k job, pay off my undergrad loans three years after graduation, and then spend the rest of my late 20's having fun.

[romothesavior]

Come on! Stop saying things! I was happy with going to Seton Hall until you said all this.
Now I'm feeling like I need to come off a T14 WL and take out a huge amount of loans. Someone please convince me that Seton Hall is the right choice again. Pleeeeassssee

No, no one is saying you should take out 250k+ of debt for a T14. But no one is going to sit here and tell you SH is a good school either. You really should retake.

If you won't, then enjoy your full-ride at SH. You just shouldn't delude yourself into thinking you'll get a six figure job outside of the top 5-10%, and be ready to drop out if you lose your scholarship.

[DaRascal]

Come on! Stop saying things! I was happy with going to Seton Hall until you said all this.
Now I'm feeling like I need to come off a T14 WL and take out a huge amount of loans. Someone please convince me that Seton Hall is the right choice again. Pleeeeassssee

No, no one is saying you should take out 250k+ of debt for a T14. But no one is going to sit here and tell you SH is a good school either. You really should retake.

If you won't, then enjoy your full-ride at SH. You just shouldn't delude yourself into thinking you'll get a six figure job outside of the top 5-10%, and be ready to drop out if you lose your scholarship.

I feel like a retake doesn't do much for me unless I break a barrier that I don't think I'm close to. Even going up five or so points and getting some $ at a school like BC wouldn't help because you're only talking about a 10-15% better shot at biglaw and a likely outcome that I'll get a job that I'd get being top 1/3 at SH.

I might as well just go to SH for a year and drop out and move to Atlantic City if I'm not in the top 20% (fair benchmark?) or so.

[stillwater]

Come on! Stop saying things! I was happy with going to Seton Hall until you said all this.
Now I'm feeling like I need to come off a T14 WL and take out a huge amount of loans. Someone please convince me that Seton Hall is the right choice again. Pleeeeassssee

No, no one is saying you should take out 250k+ of debt for a T14. But no one is going to sit here and tell you SH is a good school either. You really should retake.

If you won't, then enjoy your full-ride at SH. You just shouldn't delude yourself into thinking you'll get a six figure job outside of the top 5-10%, and be ready to drop out if you lose your scholarship.

I feel like a retake doesn't do much for me unless I break a barrier that I don't think I'm close to. Even going up five or so points and getting some $ at a school like BC wouldn't help because you're only talking about a 10-15% better shot at biglaw and a likely outcome that I'll get a job that I'd get being top 1/3 at SH.

I might as well just go to SH for a year and drop out and move to Atlantic City if I'm not in the top 20% (fair benchmark?) or so.

I would be concerned about how deeply flawed your reasoning has been. I would be shitting my pants - not in a good way- if I was only in the top 1/3 of SH. That is a terrible place to be if you are trying to get a job thats not giving handjobs to a traffic court judge.

[hephaestus]

It's the Heart of Legal Opportunity.


I've now rationalized going though. Just need to bust ass and do well, get a nice 60k job, pay off my undergrad loans three years after graduation, and then spend the rest of my late 20's having fun.

Do you not believe in data? Or do you just think it doesn't apply to you? 60k from SH in a legal job is a very good outcome, not something to settle for so you can "spend time having fun."