Ever so slight doubts about Yale Forum

[09042014]

You guys realize your legal career extends beyond 1L right?

(OP working at Quinn SF in 2017)

(gets styled on by Boaltie who did fullride)

[dixiecupdrinking]

I agree with Greenandgold. I'm not going to Chicago b/c I don't want (the stress of) grades. It's just not worth the extra 30-60K/yr for three years in my mind.

Are you serious? Having "no grades" (i.e., high passes and passes instead of A's and B's) is worth $90-180,000 to you? That sounds completely insane to me.

[005618502]

I agree with Greenandgold. I'm not going to Chicago b/c I don't want (the stress of) grades. It's just not worth the extra 30-60K/yr for three years in my mind.

Are you serious? Having "no grades" (i.e., high passes and passes instead of A's and B's) is worth $90-180,000 to you? That sounds completely insane to me.

Thats because s/he is an 0L and doesnt get that even though they dont have A,B,C, etc employers still know how to rank people in the class.

I think it is a pretty crazy idea to go into that kind of debt with the other options you have

[005618502]

All of us eventually have pick one school and when you are choosing among the top you can't go wrong. Another birdie tells me there is no curve at SLS.

P.S. all these "Birdies" are wrong. HYS are all curved (besides Yale's first semester which is pass fail).

[sfhaze]

You guys realize your legal career extends beyond 1L right?

(OP working at Quinn SF in 2017)

(gets styled on by Boaltie who did fullride)

Indeed, big picture the best overall option for OP is probably to use the other scholarships to get a full matching scholarship from Berkeley. Berkeley has no real grades either and for Bay Area/CA IP, it would be just as strong as any other school, outside of maybe Stanford, but that's even debatable. On the other hand it's hard to know what you'll end up wanting to do once you enter law school -- expect to get derailed into academia or clerking if you attend Yale or Stanford, at least more so than being at many other schools. It does seem like OP's too much of prestige whore to turn down Yale ... won't stoop so low to UC Berkeley . Heck, Stanford's not good enough b/c it's not an "ivy"?! No offense, I know parents and other forces add to this, so it's understandable, but such thinking might not get you that much more in the long run.

But yes, IP at Yale, and historically at many top schools, is basically an afterthought b/c these schools even still see themselves as generalist think tanks. Not like it would matter since firms/employers don't expect you to know much, if anything, coming in, and a Yale degree will be more than impressive enough w/o any IP courses on your resume. I'd decide this on cost/location -- i.e., Berkeley (assuming they match $ in full). Though if you have any serious interest in clerking or academia, you should probably pick Yale and be done with it.

[pacifica]

I agree with Greenandgold. I'm not going to Chicago b/c I don't want (the stress of) grades. It's just not worth the extra 30-60K/yr for three years in my mind.

Are you serious? Having "no grades" (i.e., high passes and passes instead of A's and B's) is worth $90-180,000 to you? That sounds completely insane to me.

Thats because s/he is an 0L and doesnt get that even though they dont have A,B,C, etc employers still know how to rank people in the class.

I think it is a pretty crazy idea to go into that kind of debt with the other options you have

haha, now we're just bickering out of context. Check my LSN, I turned down several fullride offers, which means I'm totally serious about the stress and quality of life factor that many have mentioned. The only reason I hung onto the Ruby is because I tentatively want to work and live in Chicago in the future, so I may still contemplate it a little more.

Not to brag or anything, but I feel given my PhD in biochem, I would probably be unique compared to most of the biglaw IP interviewee crowd in the biosciences sector, so I REALLY don't think I need law school grades as a way to distinguish myself to employers. Hence, I want a no-grade system to improve my quality of life in law school as much as possible. (I hope I'm not falling victim to the special snowflake syndrome...)

[Ti Malice]

All of us eventually have pick one school and when you are choosing among the top you can't go wrong. Another birdie tells me there is no curve at SLS.

P.S. all these "Birdies" are wrong. HYS are all curved (besides Yale's first semester which is pass fail).

Yale is not curved. A student group has been pushing for consistency in grading, but only informal guidelines exist. Professors have total discretion to grade as they see fit, and it's unlikely that they will surrender that power.

[John_rizzy_rawls]

OP, I would absolutely take Stanford in your situation given that they're peer schools and given how much money you would save.

[Pope Francis]

OP: Ask Chicago what percentage of Rubinstein Scholars received firm jobs from OCI. If the answer is below 100, ask what percentage of those students were IP secure. That should more or less get rid of your grade anxiety.

Then, ask yourself whether you are willing to repay loans for the next few years, just so that you can have the name "Yale" on your bio.

[vzapana]

Ask Chicago what percentage of Rubinstein Scholars received firm jobs from OCI. If the answer is below 100, ask what percentage of those students were IP secure.

if you do this, can you put the answers on this thread? i'm curious what the stats are.

[pacifica]

APOLOGY to whomever relayed my OP to the professor I cited:

I sincerely apologize for what I originally wrote, which is a mis-representation of the facts. I don't want to fan this any further than it has, but essentially, a professor did email me a few days ago, and told me a few of the pros and cons of IP at different schools. I summarized it in a MUCH more slanted and blunt way than his words, especially using quotation marks when I shouldn't have. I meant it for emphasis, but it was wrong; I don't know why I did that, but I apologize. I also then conglomerated a corporate hiring % from someone else I spoke to, not him, in the same attribution to him. That was also very wrong on my part, in a very poor attempt to make my post concise. (But for what it's worth, the #s were accurate based on fact checking with ABA data.)

I did not think my post could publicly identify my source so easily, but I must have overlooked that detail. I'm in shock that a web forum's contents are scrutinized so much for veracity in certain regards and not so in others.

If you have frequent communications with this professor, please apologize on my behalf again (I already did directly as well) for my poor web etiquette. I overlooked integrity of representation for the sake of brevity and informality in which I was seeking informal, anonymous advice. He did not deserve this for helping me so earnestly, and I did not intend to sully anyone's reputation. But in the end, I was the one in the wrong, so please accept my apology.

[LRGhost]

Whoever relayed the message should exercise more consideration in their actions, not you.

[Crowing]

Whoever relayed the message should be embarrassed about their action, not you.

Seriously JFC.

[John_rizzy_rawls]

Whoever relayed the message should be embarrassed about their action, not you.

Seriously JFC.

[UtilityMonster]

You guys realize your legal career extends beyond 1L right?

(OP working at Quinn SF in 2017)

(gets styled on by Boaltie who did fullride)

Indeed, big picture the best overall option for OP is probably to use the other scholarships to get a full matching scholarship from Berkeley. Berkeley has no real grades either and for Bay Area/CA IP, it would be just as strong as any other school, outside of maybe Stanford, but that's even debatable. On the other hand it's hard to know what you'll end up wanting to do once you enter law school -- expect to get derailed into academia or clerking if you attend Yale or Stanford, at least more so than being at many other schools. It does seem like OP's too much of prestige whore to turn down Yale ... won't stoop so low to UC Berkeley . Heck, Stanford's not good enough b/c it's not an "ivy"?! No offense, I know parents and other forces add to this, so it's understandable, but such thinking might not get you that much more in the long run.

But yes, IP at Yale, and historically at many top schools, is basically an afterthought b/c these schools even still see themselves as generalist think tanks. Not like it would matter since firms/employers don't expect you to know much, if anything, coming in, and a Yale degree will be more than impressive enough w/o any IP courses on your resume. I'd decide this on cost/location -- i.e., Berkeley (assuming they match $ in full). Though if you have any serious interest in clerking or academia, you should probably pick Yale and be done with it.

Please shut the fuck up.

[vzapana]

also, nyu just poached a big deal berkeley ip prof, and stanford apparently is close to poaching another. berkeley is bleeding ip profs.

[ManOfTheMinute]

You guys realize your legal career extends beyond 1L right?

(OP working at Quinn SF in 2017)

(gets styled on by Boaltie who did fullride)

Indeed, big picture the best overall option for OP is probably to use the other scholarships to get a full matching scholarship from Berkeley. Berkeley has no real grades either and for Bay Area/CA IP, it would be just as strong as any other school, outside of maybe Stanford, but that's even debatable. On the other hand it's hard to know what you'll end up wanting to do once you enter law school -- expect to get derailed into academia or clerking if you attend Yale or Stanford, at least more so than being at many other schools. It does seem like OP's too much of prestige whore to turn down Yale ... won't stoop so low to UC Berkeley . Heck, Stanford's not good enough b/c it's not an "ivy"?! No offense, I know parents and other forces add to this, so it's understandable, but such thinking might not get you that much more in the long run.

But yes, IP at Yale, and historically at many top schools, is basically an afterthought b/c these schools even still see themselves as generalist think tanks. Not like it would matter since firms/employers don't expect you to know much, if anything, coming in, and a Yale degree will be more than impressive enough w/o any IP courses on your resume. I'd decide this on cost/location -- i.e., Berkeley (assuming they match $ in full). Though if you have any serious interest in clerking or academia, you should probably pick Yale and be done with it.

Please shut the fuck up.

[09042014]

Well lets be clear. Nobody really cares about how good someone's IP academics are. Nobody ever asked me why NU just uses a bunch of adjuncts.

[RoyBatty]

V50 partner here responsible for OCI at a handful of schools. I am a very infrequent observer here but jumped in because the poster raised a number of points I know something about. I wish I had this kind of resource when I was in your spot. I had the 1990 USNWR and a VHS of The Paper Chase. I won’t be sticking around for Q&A., sorry.

An electrical or bio PhD from a good program puts you in terrific shape for a top IP Lit job even if you go to a law school well below the group of schools being discussed. Different bar, different talent pool, different competition. You noted you are Asian. If you are also fluent in Mandarin or Japanese (Korean is possibly relevant too), then you are a unicorn and will get great opportunities from any of these places, almost without regard to your interpersonal skills or grades. Congrats.

We know where students rank at Harvard and Stanford because we see enough transcripts to rank them with reasonable comfort, and our recent alums at the firm will know a good, bad, or middling transcript when they see it. There are cutoffs. The Ps and Hs only chop up the class into chunks, but we are looking at ranges of grades anyway. It's not as if we would take a less well-rounded and engaging Columbia 3.9 GPA over a 3.8 that the interviewers like and support. If Stanford and Harvard students feel less stressed about grades than Columbia and Chicago students, that's the placebo effect working. Applicants from Yale get dinged too. It’s a tiny pool for big firm hiring without many meaningful distinctions. Nothing is guaranteed and, perversely, the lack of grades can make it easier to veto someone who an interviewer dislikes. A rare handful of people are so insufferable even Yale can’t make up for it.

But you won't be competing against English majors who want to do commercial litigation, anyway; you will be competing with other science PhDs and people at the Loyola Patent Fair. Yes, we see “HYS” students there too: the truly driven get a jump on OCI to the great dismay of students from lesser schools who attend because they have no OCI to speak of.

Anecdotaly, the full ride scholarship winners at Columbia and Chicago tend also to be at the top of the class. It's not clear why this is, given the supposedly weak correlation between entrance criteria and 1st year grades, but it seems to be the case for this tiny group. You might ask the UofC guy about this as you balance grades against money.

Someone else in your position or very similar was asking about the best place to go for prosecution work. You are not going to one of these schools and then prosecuting, or at least I'd hope not. I don’t think “specialization” matters much here for hiring despite what the UofC prof suggested.

I usually think it makes no sense to pass up one of the full rides at a top school for an ego boost based on ranking prestige. To me, it's like passing up a full ride at LSU because Nick Saban said you can walk on at 'Bama. 17-year-olds don't fall for that logic as often as grown people with summas and PhDs. Odd. But in your specific case I agree with the Stanford backers. Northern California certainly isn't as relevant to your biochem expertise as it would be with an electrical engineering background, but it remains an IP center of gravity and you have connections there. On the other hand, if you see yourself working in Chicago, maybe spending a few years there will help you firm that up or change your mind before you make the big step of taking a job in the city after school. And Yale is still Yale. If grades really terrify you, take comfort. Job prospects will be virtually identical whichever you choose.

Good luck.

[Huey Freeman]

V50 partner here responsible for OCI at a handful of schools. I am a very infrequent observer here but jumped in because the poster raised a number of points I know something about. I wish I had this kind of resource when I was in your spot. I had the 1990 USNWR and a VHS of The Paper Chase. I won’t be sticking around for Q&A., sorry.

An electrical or bio PhD from a good program puts you in terrific shape for a top IP Lit job even if you go to a law school well below the group of schools being discussed. Different bar, different talent pool, different competition. You noted you are Asian. If you are also fluent in Mandarin or Japanese (Korean is possibly relevant too), then you are a unicorn and will get great opportunities from any of these places, almost without regard to your interpersonal skills or grades. Congrats.

We know where students rank at Harvard and Stanford because we see enough transcripts to rank them with reasonable comfort, and our recent alums at the firm will know a good, bad, or middling transcript when they see it. There are cutoffs. The Ps and Hs only chop up the class into chunks, but we are looking at ranges of grades anyway. It's not as if we would take a less well-rounded and engaging Columbia 3.9 GPA over a 3.8 that the interviewers like and support. If Stanford and Harvard students feel less stressed about grades than Columbia and Chicago students, that's the placebo effect working. Applicants from Yale get dinged too. It’s a tiny pool for big firm hiring without many meaningful distinctions. Nothing is guaranteed and, perversely, the lack of grades can make it easier to veto someone who an interviewer dislikes. A rare handful of people are so insufferable even Yale can’t make up for it.

But you won't be competing against English majors who want to do commercial litigation, anyway; you will be competing with other science PhDs and people at the Loyola Patent Fair. Yes, we see “HYS” students there too: the truly driven get a jump on OCI to the great dismay of students from lesser schools who attend because they have no OCI to speak of.

Anecdotaly, the full ride scholarship winners at Columbia and Chicago tend also to be at the top of the class. It's not clear why this is, given the supposedly weak correlation between entrance criteria and 1st year grades, but it seems to be the case for this tiny group. You might ask the UofC guy about this as you balance grades against money.

Someone else in your position or very similar was asking about the best place to go for prosecution work. You are not going to one of these schools and then prosecuting, or at least I'd hope not. I don’t think “specialization” matters much here for hiring despite what the UofC prof suggested.

I usually think it makes no sense to pass up one of the full rides at a top school for an ego boost based on ranking prestige. To me, it's like passing up a full ride at LSU because Nick Saban said you can walk on at 'Bama. 17-year-olds don't fall for that logic as often as grown people with summas and PhDs. Odd. But in your specific case I agree with the Stanford backers. Northern California certainly isn't as relevant to your biochem expertise as it would be with an electrical engineering background, but it remains an IP center of gravity and you have connections there. On the other hand, if you see yourself working in Chicago, maybe spending a few years there will help you firm that up or change your mind before you make the big step of taking a job in the city after school. And Yale is still Yale. If grades really terrify you, take comfort. Job prospects will be virtually identical whichever you choose.

Good luck.

This advice is far more reputable and valuable than anything else you'll hear on this thread. You struck a goldmine by having someone like this guy post.

[Rahviveh]

V50 partner here responsible for OCI at a handful of schools. I am a very infrequent observer here but jumped in because the poster raised a number of points I know something about. I wish I had this kind of resource when I was in your spot. I had the 1990 USNWR and a VHS of The Paper Chase. I won’t be sticking around for Q&A., sorry.

An electrical or bio PhD from a good program puts you in terrific shape for a top IP Lit job even if you go to a law school well below the group of schools being discussed. Different bar, different talent pool, different competition. You noted you are Asian. If you are also fluent in Mandarin or Japanese (Korean is possibly relevant too), then you are a unicorn and will get great opportunities from any of these places, almost without regard to your interpersonal skills or grades. Congrats.

We know where students rank at Harvard and Stanford because we see enough transcripts to rank them with reasonable comfort, and our recent alums at the firm will know a good, bad, or middling transcript when they see it. There are cutoffs. The Ps and Hs only chop up the class into chunks, but we are looking at ranges of grades anyway. It's not as if we would take a less well-rounded and engaging Columbia 3.9 GPA over a 3.8 that the interviewers like and support. If Stanford and Harvard students feel less stressed about grades than Columbia and Chicago students, that's the placebo effect working. Applicants from Yale get dinged too. It’s a tiny pool for big firm hiring without many meaningful distinctions. Nothing is guaranteed and, perversely, the lack of grades can make it easier to veto someone who an interviewer dislikes. A rare handful of people are so insufferable even Yale can’t make up for it.

But you won't be competing against English majors who want to do commercial litigation, anyway; you will be competing with other science PhDs and people at the Loyola Patent Fair. Yes, we see “HYS” students there too: the truly driven get a jump on OCI to the great dismay of students from lesser schools who attend because they have no OCI to speak of.

Anecdotaly, the full ride scholarship winners at Columbia and Chicago tend also to be at the top of the class. It's not clear why this is, given the supposedly weak correlation between entrance criteria and 1st year grades, but it seems to be the case for this tiny group. You might ask the UofC guy about this as you balance grades against money.

Someone else in your position or very similar was asking about the best place to go for prosecution work. You are not going to one of these schools and then prosecuting, or at least I'd hope not. I don’t think “specialization” matters much here for hiring despite what the UofC prof suggested.

I usually think it makes no sense to pass up one of the full rides at a top school for an ego boost based on ranking prestige. To me, it's like passing up a full ride at LSU because Nick Saban said you can walk on at 'Bama. 17-year-olds don't fall for that logic as often as grown people with summas and PhDs. Odd. But in your specific case I agree with the Stanford backers. Northern California certainly isn't as relevant to your biochem expertise as it would be with an electrical engineering background, but it remains an IP center of gravity and you have connections there. On the other hand, if you see yourself working in Chicago, maybe spending a few years there will help you firm that up or change your mind before you make the big step of taking a job in the city after school. And Yale is still Yale. If grades really terrify you, take comfort. Job prospects will be virtually identical whichever you choose.

Good luck.

This advice is far more reputable and valuable than anything else you'll hear on this thread. You struck a goldmine by having someone like this guy post.

All of his posts are excellent. I wish he would chime in more often.

[Crowing]

All of his posts are excellent. I wish he would chime in more often.

They do seem like reasonable points, but post history suggests he has some personal interest in Chicago so I'm wary of fully jumping onboard.

[AspiringAcademic]

OP: Ask Chicago what percentage of Rubinstein Scholars received firm jobs from OCI. If the answer is below 100, ask what percentage of those students were IP secure. That should more or less get rid of your grade anxiety.

Then, ask yourself whether you are willing to repay loans for the next few years, just so that you can have the name "Yale" on your bio.

Data is not the plural of anecdote, but what anecdotes I've heard make me think it's close to 100%. Maybe I'll know more this time next year.

[sfhaze]

Redacted by request.

Mr. Brian Leiter strikes again?

[vzapana]

the problem here is that there is really only one IP prof and a bunch of lecturers at chicago. so it's not hard to figure out who must have been the person who spoke to pacifica.