Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

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RGIII
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Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby RGIII » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:57 am

I currently live in NYC and I plan on remaining there to attend law school. Currently, these are my options:

1) Fordham with a $90,000 guaranteed scholarship. I would need to take out $65,000 in loans.

2) Cardozo with a guaranteed full scholarship. No debt.

Either way COL is taken care of. I plan on trying to get BigLaw but I would be satisfied with a job in a mid-small firm. I am struggling to decide between the flexibility afforded by Cardozo (graduating without debt) and the superior reputation Fordham has in NYC.

I am particularly interested in hearing from current/recent students of Fordham and Cardozo, or from one who has experience in the current NYC legal market.

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bk1
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby bk1 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:58 am

Fordham.

Danteshek
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby Danteshek » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:00 am

Fordham. You obviously can afford it if "COL is taken care of."

Ti Malice
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby Ti Malice » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:14 am

bk1 wrote:Fordham.

WanderingPondering
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby WanderingPondering » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:02 am

Danteshek wrote:Fordham. You obviously can afford it if "COL is taken care of."


You're making some assumptions that might not be true here. Maybe OP is living with his parents in NYC and that's why he is only considering bozo and fordham

RGIII
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby RGIII » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:01 am

Thanks for the replies.

COL is covered because spouse has a job.

What I really want to know is why Fordham? The rankings and prestige don't justify the debt unless it translates into jobs. From what I have heard from speaking to NYC lawyers, because NYC is so competitive and the job market is so bad, Fordham provides only a small advantage over Cardozo. The question is if that advantage is worth the debt. I know it may seem like a small number compared to what many others are borrowing for law school, but it's still 65K and if it's not payed back right away it will end up being closer to 80+.

WanderingPondering
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby WanderingPondering » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:56 am

What are your other options?? BU, WASHU? There isn't a middle ground? And why NYC big law?

drive4showLSAT4dough
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby drive4showLSAT4dough » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:07 am

Danteshek wrote:Fordham. You obviously can afford it if "COL is taken care of."


The fact that COL is covered has nothing to do with the amount of debt that he is comfortable taking on. And you sound like a dickhead.

alex.feuerman
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby alex.feuerman » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:11 am

Fordham

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francesfarmer
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby francesfarmer » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:22 am

Fordham has better biglaw and midlaw placement.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=fordham&show=ABA

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=cardozo&show=ABA

$65k is an reasonable amount to borrow for a JD. Could your spouse possibly pay down your interest as it accrues during school?

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:37 am

Fordham is significantly better, though still not great, these days. I know graduates of both schools; the Fordham person seemed to think a lot of people were struggling but ultimately most of their acquaintances found decent work, while even people near the top of the class at Cardozo were having a ton of trouble. I think the difference is worth $65,000.

But, no NYU or CLS?

RGIII
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby RGIII » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:04 pm

Thanks everybody for responding.

I was waitlisted in CLS and haven't heard back from NYU but I don't expect to be accepted into either of them.

The LST stats are from the graduating class of 2011. Considering the economic turmoil of the past few years I do not think that the numbers from 2011 are the most accurate reflection of the current job market.

I have friends who have gone to both Fordham and Cardozo. They have all struggled. Some from Fordham have nothing and some from Cardozo got good jobs. Of course, I also know Fordham grads who did really well and Cardozo grads who are unemployed. That's why this is a tough decision.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby Rahviveh » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:05 pm

RGIII wrote:
I have friends who have gone to both Fordham and Cardozo. They have all struggled. Some from Fordham have nothing and some from Cardozo got good jobs. Of course, I also know Fordham grads who did really well and Cardozo grads who are unemployed. That's why this is a tough decision.


You have stats. You don't need to rely on anecdotes.

RGIII
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby RGIII » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:04 pm

Other options would mean leaving NYC and having to worry about COL in addition to tuition. Unless I get into a top 10, I would prefer Fordham with NYC ties and minimal debt to a slightly higher ranked school with no ties and a large debt.

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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:30 pm

RGIII wrote:Thanks everybody for responding.

I was waitlisted in CLS and haven't heard back from NYU but I don't expect to be accepted into either of them.

The LST stats are from the graduating class of 2011. Considering the economic turmoil of the past few years I do not think that the numbers from 2011 are the most accurate reflection of the current job market.

I have friends who have gone to both Fordham and Cardozo. They have all struggled. Some from Fordham have nothing and some from Cardozo got good jobs. Of course, I also know Fordham grads who did really well and Cardozo grads who are unemployed. That's why this is a tough decision.

Ask your friends how many of THEIR friends are unemployed. You're right that neither is a great place to be these days but my impression of the difference is roughly "top 1/4 is okay" versus "half of law review is fucked." That's the difference between a reasonably decent school and a frankly not very good one.

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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby leslie-knope » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:08 pm

I'm in literally the exact same boat as you in terms of money received and I don't understand the hate on TLS for Cardozo. They don't have the best employment rankings on LST but Fordham is only better by 6%... I don't know how a 6% better chance of graduating with a job means I should pay $65,000 (plus housing for me).

I also personally didn't like Fordham when I visited. If you visited Fordham and you can see yourself being happy (as happy as you can be in law school) then it may be worth it, especially without COL.

But honestly I don't see how Cardozo can be leagues below Fordham quality, especially when Fordham sank to #38 in the rankings. I don't know how Fordham is always grouped with Columbia/NYU while Cardozo is "so bad" when their statistics are NOT so different.

Edit: If you want big law, I guess Fordham would give you the better "chance" but if you're fine exploring other options, I don't see why Cardozo isn't worth it *for zero debt.*
Last edited by leslie-knope on Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

law2015
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby law2015 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:14 pm

leslie-knope wrote:I'm in literally the exact same boat as you in terms of money received and I don't understand the hate on TLS for Cardozo. They don't have the best employment rankings on LST but Fordham is only better by 6%... I don't know how a 6% better chance of graduating with a job means I should pay $65,000 (plus housing for me).

I also personally didn't like Fordham when I visited. If you visited Fordham and you can see yourself being happy (as happy as you can be in law school) then it may be worth it, especially without COL.

But honestly I don't see how Cardozo can be leagues below Fordham quality, especially when Fordham sank to #38 in the rankings. I don't know how Fordham is always grouped with Columbia/NYU while Cardozo is "so bad" when their statistics are NOT so different.


Fordham places a quarter of their class into big firms compared to Cardozo's 5 percent or whatever that number is.

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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:16 pm

leslie-knope wrote:I'm in literally the exact same boat as you in terms of money received and I don't understand the hate on TLS for Cardozo. They don't have the best employment rankings on LST but Fordham is only better by 6%... I don't know how a 6% better chance of graduating with a job means I should pay $65,000 (plus housing for me).

I also personally didn't like Fordham when I visited. If you visited Fordham and you can see yourself being happy (as happy as you can be in law school) then it may be worth it, especially without COL.

But honestly I don't see how Cardozo can be leagues below Fordham quality, especially when Fordham sank to #38 in the rankings. I don't know how Fordham is always grouped with Columbia/NYU while Cardozo is "so bad" when their statistics are NOT so different.

Edit: If you want big law, I guess Fordham would give you the better "chance" but if you're fine exploring other options, I don't see why Cardozo isn't worth it *for zero debt.*

Nobody groups Fordham with Columbia or NYU. The gap between CLS/NYU and Fordham is bigger than the gap between Fordham and Cardozo. But Fordham is still categorically stronger than Cardozo.

leslie-knope
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby leslie-knope » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:17 pm

law2015 wrote:
leslie-knope wrote:I'm in literally the exact same boat as you in terms of money received and I don't understand the hate on TLS for Cardozo. They don't have the best employment rankings on LST but Fordham is only better by 6%... I don't know how a 6% better chance of graduating with a job means I should pay $65,000 (plus housing for me).

I also personally didn't like Fordham when I visited. If you visited Fordham and you can see yourself being happy (as happy as you can be in law school) then it may be worth it, especially without COL.

But honestly I don't see how Cardozo can be leagues below Fordham quality, especially when Fordham sank to #38 in the rankings. I don't know how Fordham is always grouped with Columbia/NYU while Cardozo is "so bad" when their statistics are NOT so different.


Fordham places a quarter of their class into big firms compared to Cardozo's 5 percent or whatever that number is.


I just made an edit that if he wants Biglaw, I guess I agree Fordham is the better investment, but if he isn't dead set on that and is willing to explore other options in return for no debt, I see no problem with Cardozo.

leslie-knope
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby leslie-knope » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:19 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
leslie-knope wrote:I'm in literally the exact same boat as you in terms of money received and I don't understand the hate on TLS for Cardozo. They don't have the best employment rankings on LST but Fordham is only better by 6%... I don't know how a 6% better chance of graduating with a job means I should pay $65,000 (plus housing for me).

I also personally didn't like Fordham when I visited. If you visited Fordham and you can see yourself being happy (as happy as you can be in law school) then it may be worth it, especially without COL.

But honestly I don't see how Cardozo can be leagues below Fordham quality, especially when Fordham sank to #38 in the rankings. I don't know how Fordham is always grouped with Columbia/NYU while Cardozo is "so bad" when their statistics are NOT so different.

Edit: If you want big law, I guess Fordham would give you the better "chance" but if you're fine exploring other options, I don't see why Cardozo isn't worth it *for zero debt.*

Nobody groups Fordham with Columbia or NYU. The gap between CLS/NYU and Fordham is bigger than the gap between Fordham and Cardozo. But Fordham is still categorically stronger than Cardozo.


Categorically in what though? Perceptions? Because I'm looking at job statistics. If you want biglaw then I get it, but if you don't care about that, I don't think Fordham is that much better unless you visited and decided you would be happier there.

RGIII
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby RGIII » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:25 pm

Firstly, on LST Fordham placed approximately 25% in BigLaw compared to Cardozo's 12%. Those are the numbers from 2011. I still don't understand why everyone on TLS swears by these numbers. The fact is that a lot changed in the last two years, particularly in NYC. The reason why I quote "anecdotes" over numbers is because the students that are in 3L this year as well as those that graduated last year are far more accurate indicators of the reality of the job market than LST's 2011 numbers.

I would have to agree that for BigLaw Fordham is a much safer bet but the hate Cardozo gets when compared to Fordham seems to be more a matter of reknown and prestige than actual job statistics. I can definitely understand those that would choose Fordham but to me $80K is a lot of money and the risk is not so small given Fordham's 25% (2011) BigLaw placement.

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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:13 pm

RGIII wrote:Firstly, on LST Fordham placed approximately 25% in BigLaw compared to Cardozo's 12%. Those are the numbers from 2011. I still don't understand why everyone on TLS swears by these numbers. The fact is that a lot changed in the last two years, particularly in NYC. The reason why I quote "anecdotes" over numbers is because the students that are in 3L this year as well as those that graduated last year are far more accurate indicators of the reality of the job market than LST's 2011 numbers.

I would have to agree that for BigLaw Fordham is a much safer bet but the hate Cardozo gets when compared to Fordham seems to be more a matter of reknown and prestige than actual job statistics. I can definitely understand those that would choose Fordham but to me $80K is a lot of money and the risk is not so small given Fordham's 25% (2011) BigLaw placement.

So go to Cardozo? Not sure what else you want here. Fordham would be worth the extra money to me. A free law degree is appealing also, so do what you want, but don't post here and then assume you know better than people who disagree. A few people on an internet forum saying Fordham is a better choice isn't stopping you from going to Cardozo, so take the advice for what it's worth.

RGIII
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby RGIII » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:58 pm

I do not assume I know better. The purpose of creating this thread was to try to probe the minds of fellow TLSers in an effort to receive intelligent objective criticism on my thought process while making this decision. Thank you for your responses.

If there are any students at these schools that can comment on this thread I would really appreciate it.

RGIII
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby RGIII » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:34 am

leslie-knope wrote:I'm in literally the exact same boat as you in terms of money received and I don't understand the hate on TLS for Cardozo. They don't have the best employment rankings on LST but Fordham is only better by 6%... I don't know how a 6% better chance of graduating with a job means I should pay $65,000 (plus housing for me).

I also personally didn't like Fordham when I visited. If you visited Fordham and you can see yourself being happy (as happy as you can be in law school) then it may be worth it, especially without COL.

But honestly I don't see how Cardozo can be leagues below Fordham quality, especially when Fordham sank to #38 in the rankings. I don't know how Fordham is always grouped with Columbia/NYU while Cardozo is "so bad" when their statistics are NOT so different.

Edit: If you want big law, I guess Fordham would give you the better "chance" but if you're fine exploring other options, I don't see why Cardozo isn't worth it *for zero debt.*


You sound like your leaning towards Cardozo.

leslie-knope
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Re: Fordham (65K debt) vs Cardozo (no debt)

Postby leslie-knope » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:58 pm

RGIII wrote:
leslie-knope wrote:I'm in literally the exact same boat as you in terms of money received and I don't understand the hate on TLS for Cardozo. They don't have the best employment rankings on LST but Fordham is only better by 6%... I don't know how a 6% better chance of graduating with a job means I should pay $65,000 (plus housing for me).

I also personally didn't like Fordham when I visited. If you visited Fordham and you can see yourself being happy (as happy as you can be in law school) then it may be worth it, especially without COL.

But honestly I don't see how Cardozo can be leagues below Fordham quality, especially when Fordham sank to #38 in the rankings. I don't know how Fordham is always grouped with Columbia/NYU while Cardozo is "so bad" when their statistics are NOT so different.

Edit: If you want big law, I guess Fordham would give you the better "chance" but if you're fine exploring other options, I don't see why Cardozo isn't worth it *for zero debt.*


You sound like your leaning towards Cardozo.


Yeah, I personally am. But that's because I visited Fordham and Cardozo and felt more comfortable at Cardozo and just liked the environment/people/faculty/programs/price.

I know TLS is against anecdotal evidence but I know students at both places who have gotten great jobs and who are struggling. A really good friend of mine chose Fordham for the ranking over scholarships (they dropped a lot anyway) and basically hates herself because she doesn't like her school and she's paying for it. I'm sure others have friends that feel differently, that's just my perception.

Between those two, I feel like it's just what you make of it and how you network and perform academically and at internships. Make sure you visit both and out of those options make sure you're relatively HAPPY because in my opinion you perform better when you like where you are.

Also disclaimer, I don't really care about biglaw. If that's super important to you, we might not have the same decision-making process.




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