Is NYU at sticker worth it?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:29 am

Law Sauce wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:To answer your question, no.

Where all did you apply?

What if OP gets into Penn at sticker? Would that be better than NYU?

I'll take your answer off the air


If you're asking where the OP should go if they get in NYU and Penn at sticker, the answer would be neither. If you're asking if Penn is as good as, if not better than, NYU for placing students in desirable outcomes, then the answer is yes.


I dont want to get in an argument with Aberzombie1892, but I would challenge this. When I was interviewing at the top vault firms in the city, I met a lot of others also on callbacks (because they schedule a bunch of people at the same time). I met tons of NYU people interviewing at these firms and hardly any Penn students. I also did some interviews at lower Vault ranked firms and I met a lot of Penn people at these offices and less NYU students. I understand this is antidotal, but I believe it is representative of the strong connections NYU has in the city. The point, I guess, is that Penn may do well at placing in the city (and it certainly does) but no one places a higher quantity of people in the city at the top firms as NYU (similar to Harvard, Columbia).


My definition of a desirable outcome is a job that pays market. Vault rankings and whatever else are meaningless using market pay as a proxy for good outcomes. Who cares if school A places more students in high ranking firms than school B if a lower total percentage of school A's grads that get market paying jobs is lower than that percentage at school B?

Also, just to note, I didn't bring Penn into this, as noted by the quote history.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby JamesDean1955 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:26 am

+1 to Aberzombie's post. It amazes me how people still don't understand the difference between numbers and percentages.

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DaleCooper
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby DaleCooper » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:47 pm

Aberzombie thinks DOJ or SEC or State or Goldman or McKinsey or some super-prestigious tax boutique is a decisively inferior outcome to some $130k/year firm nobody's ever heard of in a third-rate city that's most famous for its sports team, and that said firm is just as "desirable" an outcome as Wachtell or S&C. Nobody should listen to him ever, except maybe on Po' Boy recommendations.

OP: NYU at sticker is worth it, but lower T14 w/$$+ is more worth it. Take the money.

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Law Sauce
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Law Sauce » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:34 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:+1 to Aberzombie's post. It amazes me how people still don't understand the difference between numbers and percentages.


Absolutely, that is part of my point, but having a huge streamline is very helpful

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:43 pm

I think it is a very strange thing to assume that NYU students have an advantage at the most competitive firms but are at a disadvantage at slightly less competitive firms. What on earth would lead someone to think this makes sense? Is that the suggestion—that NYU is better for Davis Polk but Penn is better for Willkie or Schulte? I mean, does that really make sense to anyone?

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banjo
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby banjo » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:53 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:I think it is a very strange thing to assume that NYU students have an advantage at the most competitive firms but are at a disadvantage at slightly less competitive firms. What on earth would lead someone to think this makes sense? Is that the suggestion—that NYU is better for Davis Polk but Penn is better for Willkie or Schulte? I mean, does that really make sense to anyone?


I'm not even considering Penn, so I have no stake in this, but one explanation: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194054&start=25#p5919743

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:53 pm

I've read the whole thread and have a few comments about debt/cost of living in NYC v-a-v paying sticker at NYU. Currently, I live very comfortably in Brooklyn and work as a paralegal in Manhattan. That means I make only about $50k including overtime. (Note: I share a one bedroom, so that does make things easier.) I pay $800 for my half of rent and utilities in a great apartment that's about a 20 minute commute to my office (would be about 30-35 to midtown).

After accounting for debt service at $250,000 and over $2,600 for housing/month (which I would say is way too high based on my experience, even if I was living alone), the Michigan Debt Wizard shows $2,400 remaining in monthly income at the base $160,000 biglaw salary.

Why does everyone seem to think you'll be dirt poor living in NYC working biglaw with sticker debt?

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Rahviveh
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Rahviveh » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:57 pm

Ialdabaoth wrote:I've read the whole thread and have a few comments about debt/cost of living in NYC v-a-v paying sticker at NYU. Currently, I live very comfortably in Brooklyn and work as a paralegal in Manhattan. That means I make only about $50k including overtime. (Note: I share a one bedroom, so that does make things easier.) I pay $800 for my half of rent and utilities in a great apartment that's about a 20 minute commute to my office (would be about 30-35 to midtown).

After accounting for debt service at $250,000 and over $2,600 for housing/month (which I would say is way too high based on my experience, even if I was living alone), the Michigan Debt Wizard shows $2,400 remaining in monthly income at the base $160,000 biglaw salary.

Why does everyone seem to think you'll be dirt poor living in NYC working biglaw with sticker debt?

Isn't that assuming you make 160k a year for 10 yrs?

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sinfiery
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby sinfiery » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:06 am

160k after tax is approx 105k in NYC. 250k is approx 60k a year if you pay it back in 5 years.

Should also note your salary will increase from 160k over 5 years.


So can you live comfortably on 45k after tax income in NYC?

(This question is completely dependent upon your other options btw op)

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:10 am

ChampagnePapi wrote:
Ialdabaoth wrote:I've read the whole thread and have a few comments about debt/cost of living in NYC v-a-v paying sticker at NYU. Currently, I live very comfortably in Brooklyn and work as a paralegal in Manhattan. That means I make only about $50k including overtime. (Note: I share a one bedroom, so that does make things easier.) I pay $800 for my half of rent and utilities in a great apartment that's about a 20 minute commute to my office (would be about 30-35 to midtown).

After accounting for debt service at $250,000 and over $2,600 for housing/month (which I would say is way too high based on my experience, even if I was living alone), the Michigan Debt Wizard shows $2,400 remaining in monthly income at the base $160,000 biglaw salary.

Why does everyone seem to think you'll be dirt poor living in NYC working biglaw with sticker debt?

Isn't that assuming you make 160k a year for 10 yrs?


Sort of. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that you would have a good chance of maintaing some form of a biglaw ($160k+job) for about 5+ years, which-with salary increases and bonuses--would allow you to pay down your debt much more rapidly than the 10 year schedule. Sticking around for 3-5 years and significantly paying down debt before leaving for another gig seems to be standard at my market-paying firm.

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:18 am

sinfiery wrote:160k after tax is approx 105k in NYC. 250k is approx 60k a year if you pay it back in 5 years.

Should also note your salary will increase from 160k over 5 years.


So can you live comfortably on 45k after tax income in NYC?

(This question is completely dependent upon your other options btw op)


I live comfortably in Brooklyn on 30-35k after tax. I have money to put away for savings/retirement account and discretionary for vacations/misc.

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thelawyler
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby thelawyler » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:16 am

DaleCooper wrote:Aberzombie thinks DOJ or SEC or State or Goldman or McKinsey or some super-prestigious tax boutique is a decisively inferior outcome to some $130k/year firm nobody's ever heard of in a third-rate city that's most famous for its sports team, and that said firm is just as "desirable" an outcome as Wachtell or S&C. Nobody should listen to him ever, except maybe on Po' Boy recommendations.

OP: NYU at sticker is worth it, but lower T14 w/$$+ is more worth it. Take the money.


Also worth noting that NLJ numbers under-represent a lot of the biggest vault firms where HCN send tons of people in their huge New York City classes.

NYstate
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby NYstate » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:36 am

Ialdabaoth wrote:
sinfiery wrote:160k after tax is approx 105k in NYC. 250k is approx 60k a year if you pay it back in 5 years.

Should also note your salary will increase from 160k over 5 years.


So can you live comfortably on 45k after tax income in NYC?

(This question is completely dependent upon your other options btw op)


I live comfortably in Brooklyn on 30-35k after tax. I have money to put away for savings/retirement account and discretionary for vacations/misc.


Care to share your budget? How much do you spend on clothes, rent, how many roommates, how far is your commute, food budget,etc? What are your hobbies?

I dont see how this is possible or sustainable. Please let me know how this works!

edit: dont assume your take home is $105,000.

Real Madrid
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Real Madrid » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:07 am

Law Sauce wrote:This thread is a little silly. NYU at sticker is on average a positive investment. If you stop the analysis at year 5 then obviously it does not look as good, but the investment needs to be evaluated over the life of the degree. There is no way that NYU grads on average do not have a positive ROI. That being said, I think that you are getting all the No's ITT because people are realizing that with your strong numbers you ought to be able to hope for some money somewhere else in the T14 which would probably be preferable. But I would guess that the majority of students in the T14 are going at sticker; they are not all morons. NYU has a lot of upside and, while is it a little risky, it is not as bad as many posters seem to imply that it is. You should, of course, take the risk seriously and do all you can to do well on exams and represent yourself well to employers.


Get out of here with this ridiculous non-cynical POV. There's no place for that crap on TLS.

Humbert Humbert
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Humbert Humbert » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:05 am

sinfiery wrote:160k after tax is approx 105k in NYC. 250k is approx 60k a year if you pay it back in 5 years.

Should also note your salary will increase from 160k over 5 years.


So can you live comfortably on 45k after tax income in NYC?

(This question is completely dependent upon your other options btw op)


The answer to this is unequivocally yes.

Edit: I speak from direct and current experience. Re: rent, my rent is also almost twice what the other guy in this thread (living in Brooklyn) pays ($800 is really low), and I still live comfortably on 45k take home. And that includes paying a portion back each month towards UG student loans.

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francesfarmer
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby francesfarmer » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:53 am

Humbert Humbert wrote:
sinfiery wrote:160k after tax is approx 105k in NYC. 250k is approx 60k a year if you pay it back in 5 years.

Should also note your salary will increase from 160k over 5 years.


So can you live comfortably on 45k after tax income in NYC?

(This question is completely dependent upon your other options btw op)


The answer to this is unequivocally yes.

Edit: I speak from direct and current experience. Re: rent, my rent is also almost twice what the other guy in this thread (living in Brooklyn) pays ($800 is really low), and I still live comfortably on 45k take home. And that includes paying a portion back each month towards UG student loans.

It is easy to live on less than 45k pre-tax. I buy whatever I want and eat out constantly and I go on trips all the time. I pay less than $800 in rent. It's incredibly do-able. Get roommates.

Humbert Humbert
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Humbert Humbert » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:19 am

francesfarmer wrote:
Humbert Humbert wrote:
sinfiery wrote:160k after tax is approx 105k in NYC. 250k is approx 60k a year if you pay it back in 5 years.

Should also note your salary will increase from 160k over 5 years.


So can you live comfortably on 45k after tax income in NYC?

(This question is completely dependent upon your other options btw op)


The answer to this is unequivocally yes.

Edit: I speak from direct and current experience. Re: rent, my rent is also almost twice what the other guy in this thread (living in Brooklyn) pays ($800 is really low), and I still live comfortably on 45k take home. And that includes paying a portion back each month towards UG student loans.

It is easy to live on less than 45k pre-tax. I buy whatever I want and eat out constantly and I go on trips all the time. I pay less than $800 in rent. It's incredibly do-able. Get roommates.


Agreed. I live in Manhattan which explains the higher rent, but you could certainly pay sub-$1000/month living in Brooklyn and still have a nice place. This is actually a very popular choice for people in my firm, given the relatively short commute (Financial District).

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francesfarmer
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby francesfarmer » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:31 am

Humbert Humbert wrote:
francesfarmer wrote:It is easy to live on less than 45k pre-tax. I buy whatever I want and eat out constantly and I go on trips all the time. I pay less than $800 in rent. It's incredibly do-able. Get roommates.


Agreed. I live in Manhattan which explains the higher rent, but you could certainly pay sub-$1000/month living in Brooklyn and still have a nice place. This is actually a very popular choice for people in my firm, given the relatively short commute (Financial District).

I work in Midtown and the commute is kind of long but really easy. If you're going to work in lower Manhattan, Brooklyn is a no-brainer.

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Swimp » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:40 am

I've said it before, but I just figured I'd chime in here too and reiterate that people who claim that a biglaw salary will leave you destitute in Manhattan are either trolling or else they've never lived here. I've been living in Manhattan for years, the most money I've made in all this time is around $40K/yr, and I wouldn't trade these years for anything. Sure, there have been months where I've had to scrounge now and then, but overall my quality of life is fine.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby JamesDean1955 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:05 pm

Swimp wrote:I've said it before, but I just figured I'd chime in here too and reiterate that people who claim that a biglaw salary will leave you destitute in Manhattan are either trolling or else they've never lived here. I've been living in Manhattan for years, the most money I've made in all this time is around $40K/yr, and I wouldn't trade these years for anything. Sure, there have been months where I've had to scrounge now and then, but overall my quality of life is fine.


You live in Manhattan comfortably on a $40k pre-tax salary? Are you in a rent-controlled apartment? If not how small and/or shady is it? I live just outside NYC and work in Manhattan (haven't been here for too too long), and that surprises me.

rad lulz
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:06 pm

Swimp wrote:I've said it before, but I just figured I'd chime in here too and reiterate that people who claim that a biglaw salary will leave you destitute in Manhattan are either trolling or else they've never lived here. I've been living in Manhattan for years, the most money I've made in all this time is around $40K/yr, and I wouldn't trade these years for anything. Sure, there have been months where I've had to scrounge now and then, but overall my quality of life is fine.

(doesn't have almost $300,000 of non dischargeable debt)

(doesn't bill 2300 hours a year)

toothbrush
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby toothbrush » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:14 pm

tag

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BruceWayne
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:22 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Swimp wrote:I've said it before, but I just figured I'd chime in here too and reiterate that people who claim that a biglaw salary will leave you destitute in Manhattan are either trolling or else they've never lived here. I've been living in Manhattan for years, the most money I've made in all this time is around $40K/yr, and I wouldn't trade these years for anything. Sure, there have been months where I've had to scrounge now and then, but overall my quality of life is fine.

(doesn't have almost $300,000 of non dischargeable debt)

(doesn't bill 2300 hours a year)


Also doesn't understand that very few associates at NYC biglaw firms last beyond year 3/4.

The only law schools in this country worth sticker are HYS and quite honestly I could understand if someone didn't feel comfortable taking on that debt at those 3 either. Things are just horrible right now for law graduates. It's sad actually.

Humbert Humbert
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Humbert Humbert » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:41 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Swimp wrote:I've said it before, but I just figured I'd chime in here too and reiterate that people who claim that a biglaw salary will leave you destitute in Manhattan are either trolling or else they've never lived here. I've been living in Manhattan for years, the most money I've made in all this time is around $40K/yr, and I wouldn't trade these years for anything. Sure, there have been months where I've had to scrounge now and then, but overall my quality of life is fine.

(doesn't have almost $300,000 of non dischargeable debt)

(doesn't bill 2300 hours a year)


"Quality of life" is subjective and dependent on things other than money (i.e. hours worked, mental health, etc.). The argument I, and a few others, made is that if you assume 45k is your take home pay after monthly loan payments and taxes, then it is not hard to live comfortably from a financial standpoint. Yes, there are some built in assumptions here - mostly that you last long enough to service that debt - but, if you grant that, then 45k is enough to do just fine in NYC.

rad lulz
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:42 pm

Humbert Humbert wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Swimp wrote:I've said it before, but I just figured I'd chime in here too and reiterate that people who claim that a biglaw salary will leave you destitute in Manhattan are either trolling or else they've never lived here. I've been living in Manhattan for years, the most money I've made in all this time is around $40K/yr, and I wouldn't trade these years for anything. Sure, there have been months where I've had to scrounge now and then, but overall my quality of life is fine.

(doesn't have almost $300,000 of non dischargeable debt)

(doesn't bill 2300 hours a year)


"Quality of life" is subjective and dependent on things other than money (i.e. hours worked, mental health, etc.). The argument I, and a few others, made is that if you assume 45k is your take home pay after monthly loan payments and taxes, then it is not hard to live comfortably from a financial standpoint. Yes, there are some built in assumptions here - mostly that you last long enough to service that debt - but, if you grant that, then 45k is enough to do just fine in NYC.

I don't grant your assumptions




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