Is NYU at sticker worth it?

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Rahviveh
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Rahviveh » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:20 pm

Nickg415 wrote:after leaving big law after 3-5 years is there a consensus on what type of exit options there are? My thought are that, if they are able to land a regional big/mid law firm with 3-5 years under their belt, they should be able to be making close to 145-160k with much better hours than big city big law. If this is the case, sticking to the 10 yr pay off plan of 36K a year would not be hard to keep to. Even more so if you were able to put away 60K a year during those years of big law. Either way, for the majority of us, this life style is likely better than any alternative career paths.

There's a thread with an associate answering questions about this topic:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=205718

In case you haven't seen it.

60k a year might be too aggressive especially in NYC (at least with the calcs I've done). But we can probably pay it off sooner than 10 years as suggested in the Michigan chart.

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:27 pm

Nickg415 wrote:after leaving big law after 3-5 years is there a consensus on what type of exit options there are? My thought are that, if they are able to land a regional big/mid law firm with 3-5 years under their belt, they should be able to be making close to 145-160k with much better hours than big city big law. If this is the case, sticking to the 10 yr pay off plan of 36K a year would not be hard to keep to. Even more so if you were able to put away 60K a year during those years of big law. Either way, for the majority of us, this life style is likely better than any alternative career paths.

The problem is that there is no hard data for this the way that there is for people just graduating. I think the biggest divide between TLS and the scambloggers/JDU is at this point. Everyone on TLS assumes what you say to be true, while the scamblogs/JDU are filled with anecdotes of former biglawyers who fall off the map and struggle to make ends meet. And if you do manage to lateral a regional firm, you're going to be expected to be the rainmaker; if you don't bring in clients, you're useless to the firm.

I guess you shouldn't just assume that you will be able to walk into a 145k job after biglaw and live happily ever after.
Last edited by Gunnar Stahl on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NYstate
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby NYstate » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:28 pm

I don't think people assume unemployment. I think that people don't know what to assume. There is no guide to exit options and how much they pay. You are very rarely going to be able to move to a firm in another region unless you have ties. In house depends on the client. Moving to another New York firm won't really change your life that much. Then there is that ongoing drumbeat about the changing nature of biglaw and new models being developed.

I think it gets too hard to plan because there are many variables as to exit options even if you do get biglaw. And $300,000 of non- dischargable debt is a terrifying amount for many people when there is no career certainty.

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Jpreece59
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Jpreece59 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:13 am

OP here and I did some math. Assuming I make biglaw (which is anywhere from a coinflip to ~83% likely according to this thread), and assuming a standard biglaw pay scale with no bonuses, an effective 40% tax rate, and $5000 a month in rent and other expenses, I should be able to pay it off in about 6.5 years. That's not that long of a timeframe, is it?

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Rahviveh
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Rahviveh » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:15 am

Jpreece59 wrote:OP here and I did some math. Assuming I make biglaw (which is anywhere from a coinflip to ~83% likely according to this thread), and assuming a standard biglaw pay scale with no bonuses, an effective 40% tax rate, and $5000 a month in rent and other expenses, I should be able to pay it off in about 6.5 years. That's not that long of a timeframe, is it?

Again, you have a 4.0/171. This is not a decision you need to be making right now. You WILL get better offers, and if you don't, re-apply in the fall.

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:16 am

Jpreece59 wrote:OP here and I did some math. Assuming I make biglaw (which is anywhere from a coinflip to ~83% likely according to this thread), and assuming a standard biglaw pay scale with no bonuses, an effective 40% tax rate, and $5000 a month in rent and other expenses, I should be able to pay it off in about 6.5 years. That's not that long of a timeframe, is it?

Most people don't last that long in biglaw.

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Jpreece59
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Jpreece59 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:25 am

Ghost93 wrote:
Jpreece59 wrote:OP here and I did some math. Assuming I make biglaw (which is anywhere from a coinflip to ~83% likely according to this thread), and assuming a standard biglaw pay scale with no bonuses, an effective 40% tax rate, and $5000 a month in rent and other expenses, I should be able to pay it off in about 6.5 years. That's not that long of a timeframe, is it?

Most people don't last that long in biglaw.


By their choosing or are they shown the door?

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bk1
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby bk1 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:31 am

Jpreece59 wrote:
Ghost93 wrote:
Jpreece59 wrote:OP here and I did some math. Assuming I make biglaw (which is anywhere from a coinflip to ~83% likely according to this thread), and assuming a standard biglaw pay scale with no bonuses, an effective 40% tax rate, and $5000 a month in rent and other expenses, I should be able to pay it off in about 6.5 years. That's not that long of a timeframe, is it?

Most people don't last that long in biglaw.


By their choosing or are they shown the door?

Some of both, though my suspicion is that it is largely due to how taxing the job is. Most people just cannot stand it for that long and will leave once they have good enough exit options.

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Eco » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:43 am

NYU is worth it. Definitely. But like any law school, make sure you want to be a lawyer, otherwise even if it was Harvard it wouldn't be worth it.

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:55 am

Jpreece59 wrote:OP here and I did some math. Assuming I make biglaw (which is anywhere from a coinflip to ~83% likely according to this thread), and assuming a standard biglaw pay scale with no bonuses, an effective 40% tax rate, and $5000 a month in rent and other expenses, I should be able to pay it off in about 6.5 years. That's not that long of a timeframe, is it?


Lol. Yes, working 6.5 years without saving anything is long. Also, average stint in biglaw is ~3 years. So you need a coin flip to get biglaw, a coin flip to survive past year 3, and another to get past year six and a half. That's 1/8 odds, which is not good. Given your numbers it would be crazy to choose this.

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby UtilityMonster » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:04 am

This question depends on your other options. If this is your best option, I think even if it means going $200k into debt, and despite its clear risks, an NYU law degree, assuming you are willing to work your ass off during law school and after, is a worthy investment.

I echo the sentiments of other users who regard a full ride or large scholarship at a lower T14 as a better option, though.

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:14 am

UtilityMonster wrote:This question depends on your other options. If this is your best option, I think even if it means going $200k into debt, and despite its clear risks, an NYU law degree, assuming you are willing to work your ass off during law school and after, is a worthy investment.

I echo the sentiments of other users who regard a full ride or large scholarship at a lower T14 as a better option, though.


Given the OPs numbers, he could attend a T20 in a full ride. It would be insane to pay sticker at NYU.

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bk1
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby bk1 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:18 am

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Given the OPs numbers, he could attend a T20 in a full ride. It would be insane to pay sticker at NYU.

I'm not saying that NYU at sticker is sane, but these two things are not really comparable. The types of jobs that a majority of the students at GW/WUSTL get look nothing like the types of jobs that a majority of the students at NYU get.

Of course this isn't all that important for OP since OP has numbers for significant T14 schollies (if not full rides), I'm merely nitpicking your T20 comment.

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UtilityMonster
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby UtilityMonster » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:21 am

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:This question depends on your other options. If this is your best option, I think even if it means going $200k into debt, and despite its clear risks, an NYU law degree, assuming you are willing to work your ass off during law school and after, is a worthy investment.

I echo the sentiments of other users who regard a full ride or large scholarship at a lower T14 as a better option, though.


Given the OPs numbers, he could attend a T20 in a full ride. It would be insane to pay sticker at NYU.


It depends on which school(s) offer the full scholarship. I would take NYU at sticker over Minnesota full tuition in a heartbeat, especially if I was looking to work in the Northeast.

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:22 am

bk1 wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Given the OPs numbers, he could attend a T20 in a full ride. It would be insane to pay sticker at NYU.

I'm not saying that NYU at sticker is sane, but these two things are not really comparable. The types of jobs that a majority of the students at GW/WUSTL get look nothing like the types of jobs that a majority of the students at NYU get.

Of course this isn't all that important for OP since OP has numbers for significant T14 schollies (if not full rides), I'm merely nitpicking your T20 comment.


Someone with his numbers will be top quarter at GW, minimum. Probably top 10/15%. The best option may be lower T14 with ~$100k.
Last edited by Hutz_and_Goodman on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby bk1 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:23 am

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Someone with his numbers will be top quarter at GW, minimum. Probably top 10/15%.

lolno

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Rahviveh
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Rahviveh » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:23 am

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Given the OPs numbers, he could attend a T20 in a full ride. It would be insane to pay sticker at NYU.

I'm not saying that NYU at sticker is sane, but these two things are not really comparable. The types of jobs that a majority of the students at GW/WUSTL get look nothing like the types of jobs that a majority of the students at NYU get.

Of course this isn't all that important for OP since OP has numbers for significant T14 schollies (if not full rides), I'm merely nitpicking your T20 comment.


Someone with his numbers will be top quarter at GW, minimum. Probably top 10/15%.

I knew that was coming :lol:

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby NYstate » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:24 am

UtilityMonster wrote:This question depends on your other options. If this is your best option, I think even if it means going $200k into debt, and despite its clear risks, an NYU law degree, assuming you are willing to work your ass off during law school and after, is a worthy investment.

I echo the sentiments of other users who regard a full ride or large scholarship at a lower T14 as a better option, though.

1. It seems closer to $300,000 of debt for many people.

2. Most people don't understand what biglaw is, they only see the salary. It seems like so much money to them, that they think they can do whatever it takes to earn the salary. They don't consider how little they will have to live on in NYC after paying debt and how limited their life may be.

3. Being prepared to work your ass off is not enough, be sure you understand the day to day grind and hours of biglaw. I feel that almost no 0LS understand this part of the equation. If you are a person who needs regular sleep or who doesn't have insanely high energy levels or who cant manage stress and pressure, big law will eat you up in a few years.

4. I am happy with biglaw and I like the work, but the great majority of associates in my department are miserable. Many of them just hate the lifestyle, and even start to hate law. Dont get me wrong, some people thrive in this work environment. You probably know already how you deal with no sleep and pressure. I mentioned in another thread that my record was a deal where I worked for 3 days straight with literally going home to change clothes. I can handle an all-nighter (protip: drink water!) but by the end of that I was ready to walk into walls. But I still had to churn out perfect and timely work for everyone. ( protip: you always want to control the draft of the documents, but that means you have more work than the other side.) Even then, I only had one night of sleep before going back at it hard. This is extreme, but, do you think you can handle it?

I guess I am saying that I don't buy this idea that law at sticker debt of hundreds of thousands of dollars is obviously anyone's best option if they have to get and keep biglaw. I think people need to investigate other careers and really learn about biglaw before they sign on the dotted line.

For some people it is fantastic. But that is a small number of people. Even of the small group of people that biglaw is fantastic for, the odds of making partner are small. Understand the job and don't just see dollar signs. Reality is that people don't go into law to get rich, though it is possible, it isn't a sure thing and it is one of the hardest ways to make money.

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby UtilityMonster » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:25 am

bk1 wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Given the OPs numbers, he could attend a T20 in a full ride. It would be insane to pay sticker at NYU.

I'm not saying that NYU at sticker is sane, but these two things are not really comparable. The types of jobs that a majority of the students at GW/WUSTL get look nothing like the types of jobs that a majority of the students at NYU get.

Of course this isn't all that important for OP since OP has numbers for significant T14 schollies (if not full rides), I'm merely nitpicking your T20 comment.


As you should, which is why "T20" should never be used to group law schools.

bk1 wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Someone with his numbers will be top quarter at GW, minimum. Probably top 10/15%.

lolno


I am curious how strong the r^2 is for LSAT/GPA numbers and performance in law school. It is pertinent to a number of questions people pose on these boards, but not one seems to know it. If we knew it, the advice we could offer would be so much more precise.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Rahviveh » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:26 am

UtilityMonster wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Given the OPs numbers, he could attend a T20 in a full ride. It would be insane to pay sticker at NYU.

I'm not saying that NYU at sticker is sane, but these two things are not really comparable. The types of jobs that a majority of the students at GW/WUSTL get look nothing like the types of jobs that a majority of the students at NYU get.

Of course this isn't all that important for OP since OP has numbers for significant T14 schollies (if not full rides), I'm merely nitpicking your T20 comment.


As you should, which is why "T20" should never be used to group law schools.

bk1 wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Someone with his numbers will be top quarter at GW, minimum. Probably top 10/15%.

lolno


I am curious how strong the r^2 is for LSAT/GPA numbers and performance in law school. It is pertinent to a number of questions people pose on these boards, but not one seems to know it. If we knew it, the advice we could offer would be so much more precise.


Its around 0.4 IIRC. I wonder if they've done a study with only T20's. If I had to guess I bet the correlation is weaker, but I have no foundation for that

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:52 am

Totally depends on your personal circumstances. I wouldn't borrow $215,000+interest to go to any law school but you might feel differently. If you have savings, parents helping out, etc., that also changes the calculus. Anyone who says CC is worth sticker but NYU is not is being ridiculous. Outcomes are nearly indistinguishable from these schools.

I agree that I would certainly take money at another T10 school over any school at sticker price, though. Debt really does suck and I would encourage any 0L considering how much it will suck... to take how much you think it will suck, and double that amount of suck.

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby senorhosh » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:50 am

NYU at sticker is not crazy depending on your situation. NYU for OP is absolutely insane considering his numbers.

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sublime
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby sublime » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:57 am

..

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stuckinthemiddle
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby stuckinthemiddle » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:50 am

Well, I've always seen law school as a "bet big to win big" sort of profession. If you really want big law (and you've done your research/interned/etc.) and better career prospects, NYU could be worth it provided you put in the work.

It would certainly be more comfortable going to a lower-ranked school but it doesn't seem to open up quite the same doors that a T6 would. The potential job prospects for students are very very different. Another risk of going to a lower ranked school is that you will have a higher likelihood of being unemployed, which is the worst possible scenario coming out of the law school game. That's 3 years down the drain with nothing to show for it. At least if you go to a T14, you chances of working AS A LAWYER are very good.

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby thelawyler » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:51 am

The first page of this thread is stupid and ridiculous. Yes, NYU at sticker can be worth it if you want Big Law and have no other offers (splitter, etc). Over 80% of EIW participants get great jobs, something like 1/3 of the students land in V10 (and have excellent exit options), the lateral market is improving as firms are realizing that they under-hired during the recession and are understaffed for when the economy picks up, etc. We also have a great LRAP and PI program (something like 10-15% of the class really don't want to do anything except this), though I'd say its fairly risky unless you have experience and passion in that area.

senorhosh wrote:NYU at sticker is not crazy depending on your situation. NYU for OP is absolutely insane considering his numbers.


+1 to this though. You should be getting substantial money from another T14/T10. But like bk said, just because you get a full ride to a T20 doesn't mean it's the better choice. It depends on your career goals, as your average career coming out of a T20 will likely look very very different than the average one coming out of NYU. But with your numbers, go with the half or 3/4 scholly at another T10 school.
Last edited by thelawyler on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.




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