Is NYU at sticker worth it?

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pastapplicant
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby pastapplicant » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:36 pm

Nickg415 wrote:Its interesting how everyone is a no. I posted the same question for Penn with a poll and over 75% said yes. Is it that the No's are just more likely to post their reason why or something else I'm not seeing?


It has to do with TLS's strange obsession with P this cycle and it is more expensive to live in NYC. The bottom line is you should not be paying sticker for anywhere period except maybe for Y. It baffles me how people do not realize how much you are screwing yourself by taking that amount of debt regardless of whether you get a big law job or not. Please, just find even the most basic loan repayment calculator and plug in the numbers. I am at NYU right now on a significant scholarship, and even I am not comfortable being above median.

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:38 pm

pastapplicant wrote:
Nickg415 wrote:Its interesting how everyone is a no. I posted the same question for Penn with a poll and over 75% said yes. Is it that the No's are just more likely to post their reason why or something else I'm not seeing?


It has to do with TLS's strange obsession with P this cycle and it is more expensive to live in NYC. The bottom line is you should not be paying sticker for anywhere period except maybe for Y. It baffles me how people do not realize how much you are screwing yourself by taking that amount of debt regardless of whether you get a big law job or not. Please, just find even the most basic loan repayment calculator and plug in the numbers. I am at NYU right now on a significant scholarship, and even I am not comfortable being above median.


http://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/d ... lator.aspx

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:38 pm

I wouldn't do it. With your numbers there is zero reason to take NYU at sticker.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Rahviveh » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:41 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:I wouldn't do it. With your numbers there is zero reason to take NYU at sticker.


O wow I missed that.

Yeah OP with a 4.0/171 if you do not have better options, it's a product of applying late. Apply early on day one of next cycle, if necessary.

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:52 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:I wouldn't do it. With your numbers there is zero reason to take NYU at sticker.


O wow I missed that.

Yeah OP with a 4.0/171 if you do not have better options, it's a product of applying late. Apply early on day one of next cycle, if necessary.


You should have serious $ at lower T14 with these numbers, and another advantage is that a lot of these schools (Duke, UVA) are cheaper places to live, which will save you $10-15,000 a year alone. If you get $80k-100k at Duke or UVA, it is an absolute no brainer, and I agree that if you don't get serious $ like this just sit out and reapply. You're in the driver's seat.

pastapplicant
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby pastapplicant » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:00 pm

Ghost93 wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:
Nickg415 wrote:Its interesting how everyone is a no. I posted the same question for Penn with a poll and over 75% said yes. Is it that the No's are just more likely to post their reason why or something else I'm not seeing?


It has to do with TLS's strange obsession with P this cycle and it is more expensive to live in NYC. The bottom line is you should not be paying sticker for anywhere period except maybe for Y. It baffles me how people do not realize how much you are screwing yourself by taking that amount of debt regardless of whether you get a big law job or not. Please, just find even the most basic loan repayment calculator and plug in the numbers. I am at NYU right now on a significant scholarship, and even I am not comfortable being above median.


http://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/d ... lator.aspx


lol thank you. if there are any 0Ls reading this, one of the best things you can do to see the reality of the situation is to click on the link above.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby JamesDean1955 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:43 pm

.
Last edited by JamesDean1955 on Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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banjo
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby banjo » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:48 pm

I have 75k (90 with PI) at NYU and I'm still worried. Sticker would be unconscionable.

(tbf, in previous polls I've checked down through CC at sticker, but I'm starting to change my mind)

florida1949
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby florida1949 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:54 pm

How much is $20k-30k really going to positively affect your ability to back pay loans/make post-grad life better than if you had not received the aid at all?

Not trying to be snarky, just curious. I will be facing a similar decision and I'm not sure how I feel about justifying taking on $150k+ in debt (as opposed to much cheaper alternatives outside of the T14) because a school gave me $30k.

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Nickg415
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Nickg415 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:57 pm

question about the debt calculator. For New York its allotting 2,600 a month for housing. Anyone from NY want to chime in on what type of place that's getting rental/mortgage?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:58 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:To answer your question, no.

Where all did you apply?

What if OP gets into Penn at sticker? Would that be better than NYU?

I'll take your answer off the air


If you're asking where the OP should go if they get in NYU and Penn at sticker, the answer would be neither. If you're asking if Penn is as good as, if not better than, NYU for placing students in desirable outcomes, then the answer is yes.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby JamesDean1955 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:03 pm

florida1949 wrote:How much is $20k-30k really going to positively affect your ability to back pay loans/make post-grad life better than if you had not received the aid at all?

Not trying to be snarky, just curious. I will be facing a similar decision and I'm not sure how I feel about justifying taking on $150k+ in debt (as opposed to much cheaper alternatives outside of the T14) because a school gave me $30k.


It doesn't, at least initially. Either way, at $150k debt or $250k debt, you would need to either snag a PI job and make those 120 payments/use LRAP until your debt is forgiven, OR get a biglaw job/market paying job in order to live comfortably.

Some things it does affect:
1. How long you would need to stay in biglaw;
2. The lifestyle you can afford while in biglaw; and
2. What your post-biglaw lifestyle would be like (less debt you take out, the more you could pay off during your biglaw stint and less you have to worry about later).

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Law Sauce
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Law Sauce » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:08 pm

This thread is a little silly. NYU at sticker is on average a positive investment. If you stop the analysis at year 5 then obviously it does not look as good, but the investment needs to be evaluated over the life of the degree. There is no way that NYU grads on average do not have a positive ROI. That being said, I think that you are getting all the No's ITT because people are realizing that with your strong numbers you ought to be able to hope for some money somewhere else in the T14 which would probably be preferable. But I would guess that the majority of students in the T14 are going at sticker; they are not all morons. NYU has a lot of upside and, while is it a little risky, it is not as bad as many posters seem to imply that it is. You should, of course, take the risk seriously and do all you can to do well on exams and represent yourself well to employers.

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby pastapplicant » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:11 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:To answer your question, no.

Where all did you apply?

What if OP gets into Penn at sticker? Would that be better than NYU?

I'll take your answer off the air


If you're asking where the OP should go if they get in NYU and Penn at sticker, the answer would be neither. If you're asking if Penn is as good as, if not better than, NYU for placing students in desirable outcomes, then the answer is yes.


REMINDER: Bro, you go to Tulane not Penn.
Last edited by pastapplicant on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:17 pm

Law Sauce wrote:This thread is a little silly. NYU at sticker is on average a positive investment. If you stop the analysis at year 5 then obviously it does not look as good, but the investment needs to be evaluated over the life of the degree. There is no way that NYU grads on average do not have a positive ROI. That being said, I think that you are getting all the No's ITT because people are realizing that with your strong numbers you ought to be able to hope for some money somewhere else in the T14 which would probably be preferable. But I would guess that the majority of students in the T14 are going at sticker; they are not all morons. NYU has a lot of upside and, while is it a little risky, it is not as bad as many posters seem to imply that it is. You should, of course, take the risk seriously and do all you can to do well on exams and represent yourself well to employers.

Do you have any long-term data on NYU grads to support this claim?

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Law Sauce
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Law Sauce » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:18 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:To answer your question, no.

Where all did you apply?

What if OP gets into Penn at sticker? Would that be better than NYU?

I'll take your answer off the air


If you're asking where the OP should go if they get in NYU and Penn at sticker, the answer would be neither. If you're asking if Penn is as good as, if not better than, NYU for placing students in desirable outcomes, then the answer is yes.


I dont want to get in an argument with Aberzombie1892, but I would challenge this. When I was interviewing at the top vault firms in the city, I met a lot of others also on callbacks (because they schedule a bunch of people at the same time). I met tons of NYU people interviewing at these firms and hardly any Penn students. I also did some interviews at lower Vault ranked firms and I met a lot of Penn people at these offices and less NYU students. I understand this is antidotal, but I believe it is representative of the strong connections NYU has in the city. The point, I guess, is that Penn may do well at placing in the city (and it certainly does) but no one places a higher quantity of people in the city at the top firms as NYU (similar to Harvard, Columbia).

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby pastapplicant » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:19 pm

Law Sauce wrote:This thread is a little silly. NYU at sticker is on average a positive investment. If you stop the analysis at year 5 then obviously it does not look as good, but the investment needs to be evaluated over the life of the degree. There is no way that NYU grads on average do not have a positive ROI. That being said, I think that you are getting all the No's ITT because people are realizing that with your strong numbers you ought to be able to hope for some money somewhere else in the T14 which would probably be preferable. But I would guess that the majority of students in the T14 are going at sticker; they are not all morons. NYU has a lot of upside and, while is it a little risky, it is not as bad as many posters seem to imply that it is. You should, of course, take the risk seriously and do all you can to do well on exams and represent yourself well to employers.


majority of law students going at sticker do so not because they are dumb, but because they are naive about financial planning. a positive ROI is not a very good indicator in this case. sticker at nyu now costs nearly $240K which include unsubsidized loans. it is not a sure thing to get biglaw right now plus most people get stealthed after 2-3 years. OP would have to be one of the few "lucky" ones who manages to stay in biglaw over five years to be able to stand a chance at paying off that loan steadily. factor in the fact that in house jobs that pay six figures are harder to land and you have a law student who might be better off taking the loan and putting it on red in vegas. what is the point in having a positive ROI if the return sucks and you give up too much such as your health and personal life.

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby NYstate » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:23 pm

Law Sauce wrote:This thread is a little silly. NYU at sticker is on average a positive investment. If you stop the analysis at year 5 then obviously it does not look as good, but the investment needs to be evaluated over the life of the degree. There is no way that NYU grads on average do not have a positive ROI. That being said, I think that you are getting all the No's ITT because people are realizing that with your strong numbers you ought to be able to hope for some money somewhere else in the T14 which would probably be preferable. But I would guess that the majority of students in the T14 are going at sticker; they are not all morons. NYU has a lot of upside and, while is it a little risky, it is not as bad as many posters seem to imply that it is. You should, of course, take the risk seriously and do all you can to do well on exams and represent yourself well to employers.


The problem is that tuition has gone up so much in the past what, ten years, that it is hard to make ROI calculations. And salaries have not been going up in the past few years- so the difference between cost and return is increasing.

And I don't know of any study showing how long NYU grads practice law.

OP: can you post what the total sticker cost for three years plus interest on loans would be? I have no idea what exact number we are talking about when you say sticker.

Maybe we could look at it this way: how long would you need to practice and how much would you have to earn to make this debt worthwhile?

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Lacepiece23 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:33 pm

Why no love for Cornell. I feel like they'd throw $$$$$ at OP and if his goal is New York, which it seems like for wanting NYC then Cornell seems like a good option. Its definitely better than a coin flip there as well. Obviously I go there and am biased, but what makes Duke or Virgina with less money a better outcome?

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Law Sauce
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Law Sauce » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:35 pm

Ghost93 wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:This thread is a little silly. NYU at sticker is on average a positive investment. If you stop the analysis at year 5 then obviously it does not look as good, but the investment needs to be evaluated over the life of the degree. There is no way that NYU grads on average do not have a positive ROI. That being said, I think that you are getting all the No's ITT because people are realizing that with your strong numbers you ought to be able to hope for some money somewhere else in the T14 which would probably be preferable. But I would guess that the majority of students in the T14 are going at sticker; they are not all morons. NYU has a lot of upside and, while is it a little risky, it is not as bad as many posters seem to imply that it is. You should, of course, take the risk seriously and do all you can to do well on exams and represent yourself well to employers.

Do you have any long-term data on NYU grads to support this claim?


No not really. I do not think that the data exists. But if you look at a normal year (i.e. not in the middle of the recession), NYU probably places at least 55% in big firms (for any firm that pays market the number is probably slightly higher) and anther 10% or so in federal clerkship which will turn into Biglaw if the clerk wants it (and probably some more people that do NY or other state clerkships that result in big law). Conservatively, there is another 10% of people who end up doing what they want to do that does not fall into the above two categories (government etc.). In biglaw, it is certainly possible to pay off debt in 5 years or so; paying 50-60k a year, i.e. living on something like 50k (1st year) to 100k or so (5th year) a year after tax. Obviously, not all people stay in Biglaw for 5 years do this, but many could if they chose to (at their 1st firm or another firm).

Thus, I would assume that the 65% in biglaw have a positive ROI after 5 years or at least are breaking even (working insane hours but probably living better than if they had not gone to LS). This group clearly has a very positive investment as they continue their career in-house or however else they continue. This calculation is obviously complicated for opportunity cost on an individual basis, but lots of these people don't have the option of a different lucrative career path.

The other 35% probably have mixed results. We can assume that the 10% who chose to do something else chose to do so because it was worth it. Thus we can assume that they have a positive ROI. Thus, we are really worried about 25% of the class, but, given that some in the class will be hugely successful, on average, the 75% should compensate for this 25% make the ROI on the whole class positive. Many in the 25% will do IBR or work outside of law or figure something else out that is not the best possible outcome, but is not the worst case scenario.

This is all off the cuff and a little loose. It will likely be challenged and there are certainly some holes in it, but this is the basic idea of why so many people go to good schools such as NYU at sticker and I think that it is basically correct. Obviously, I would not go to LS at sticker outside of the T14.

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Law Sauce
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Law Sauce » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:38 pm

pastapplicant wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:This thread is a little silly. NYU at sticker is on average a positive investment. If you stop the analysis at year 5 then obviously it does not look as good, but the investment needs to be evaluated over the life of the degree. There is no way that NYU grads on average do not have a positive ROI. That being said, I think that you are getting all the No's ITT because people are realizing that with your strong numbers you ought to be able to hope for some money somewhere else in the T14 which would probably be preferable. But I would guess that the majority of students in the T14 are going at sticker; they are not all morons. NYU has a lot of upside and, while is it a little risky, it is not as bad as many posters seem to imply that it is. You should, of course, take the risk seriously and do all you can to do well on exams and represent yourself well to employers.


majority of law students going at sticker do so not because they are dumb, but because they are naive about financial planning. a positive ROI is not a very good indicator in this case. sticker at nyu now costs nearly $240K which include unsubsidized loans. it is not a sure thing to get biglaw right now plus most people get stealthed after 2-3 years. OP would have to be one of the few "lucky" ones who manages to stay in biglaw over five years to be able to stand a chance at paying off that loan steadily. factor in the fact that in house jobs that pay six figures are harder to land and you have a law student who might be better off taking the loan and putting it on red in vegas. what is the point in having a positive ROI if the return sucks and you give up too much such as your health and personal life.


Agreed that Biglaw is not for everyone and many people do not know what they are getting into (and basically forced into). But I think that the problem is that most of these kids have no other real options in a so-so employment market with good grades in a humanities or liberal arts degree. Things are not so much better in other industries. A good LS is the best option for a lot of people, even with the risk and debt.

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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby NYstate » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:45 pm

I just looked it up nd the COA for 2012-2013 was little over $78,000.
Plugging that into the Georgetown debt calculator , and assuming it is all debt financed and tuition increases 3.5%, s the total indebtedness at repayment is just under $290,000.

The ten year monthly payment amount is $3,460.

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:50 pm

Law Sauce wrote:Agreed that Biglaw is not for everyone and many people do not know what they are getting into (and basically forced into). But I think that the problem is that most of these kids have no other real options in a so-so employment market with good grades in a humanities or liberal arts degree. Things are not so much better in other industries. A good LS is the best option for a lot of people, even with the risk and debt.

It's a 280k gamble, where the winners have the privilege of working 80 hours a week trying to break even before they get shitcanned, and the losers are fucked for life.

I'd look at this for other options before betting my future:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=192078

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Nickg415
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby Nickg415 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:09 pm

after leaving big law after 3-5 years is there a consensus on what type of exit options there are? My thought are that, if they are able to land a regional big/mid law firm with 3-5 years under their belt, they should be able to be making close to 145-160k with much better hours than big city big law. If this is the case, sticking to the 10 yr pay off plan of 36K a year would not be hard to keep to. Even more so if you were able to put away 60K a year during those years of big law. Either way, for the majority of us, this life style is likely better than any alternative career paths.

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02889
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Re: Is NYU at sticker worth it?

Postby 02889 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:18 pm

Nickg415 wrote:after leaving big law after 3-5 years is there a consensus on what type of exit options there are? My thought are that, if they are able to land a regional big/mid law firm with 3-5 years under their belt, they should be able to be making close to 145-160k with much better hours than big city big law. If this is the case, sticking to the 10 yr pay off plan of 36K a year would not be hard to keep to. Even more so if you were able to put away 60K a year during those years of big law. Either way, for the majority of us, this life style is likely better than any alternative career paths.

I think the vast majority of all top law grads do this. I don't know why everyone on TLS assumes it's 3-5 years of biglaw, then 50 years of unemployment unless you go to Yale (but hopefully you didn't pay sticker, even then!).

I get that smart financial planning is absolutely necessary, but this thread is probably the most pessimistic I've seen on TLS.




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